SECR 6w Goods Brake (SR Dia.1558)

[Dunsignalling]

Weren't tail lamps on offset brackets intended to be used to inform drivers of overtaking trains that the halted goods was on an adjacent loop or relief line?

Edited May 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Mr chapman]

Really couldn't decide between SECR grey and southern brown. Then I saw the SER version from rails, bought that while I dither over the others. I think that one will go quicker.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Weren't tail lamps on offset brackets intended to be used to inform drivers of overtaking trains that the halted goods was on an adjacent loop or relief line?

Are you getting confused with showing a white light to the rear on the side nearest the overtaking train to avoid the driver seeing an unexpected red ??!?

[Dunsignalling]

26 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Are you getting confused with showing a white light to the rear on the side nearest the overtaking train to avoid the driver seeing an unexpected red ??!?

That's it but I expressed it rather poorly. I suspect the detail may have varied between companies in pre-group days, though.

[The Stationmaster]

Side lamps served two puroses(and a third one on the SR)

1.  They indicated to a Driver looking back that his trains was following, complete - rather important on unfitted and part fitted trains.

2. By the 1930s if not earlier (I haven't checked that as fas as 'earlier' is concerned) , removing the red shade from one of the side lamps to createa  white light to the rear would indicate to a Driver which line the van he could see ahead was. running on (And oi could be somewhat scary  on a curved quadruple travck route coming up behind one in the dark when the Guard had been too idle to alter his lamps).

3. On the SR (again by the 1930s - I have no earlier information for that company - the side lamps also served as the tail lamp so SR freight trains did not have a tail lamp in the manner that was the practice on other Companies,  There was, for example an Instruction on the SR than when an SR freight worked onto GWR lines it had to carry a tail lamp in addition to the side lamps.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Side lamps served two puroses(and a third one on the SR)

1.  They indicated to a Driver looking back that his trains was following, complete - rather important on unfitted and part fitted trains.

2. By the 1930s if not earlier (I haven't checked that as fas as 'earlier' is concerned) , removing the red shade from one of the side lamps to createa  white light to the rear would indicate to a Driver which line the van he could see ahead was. running on (And oi could be somewhat scary  on a curved quadruple travck route coming up behind one in the dark when the Guard had been too idle to alter his lamps).

3. On the SR (again by the 1930s - I have no earlier information for that company - the side lamps also served as the tail lamp so SR freight trains did not have a tail lamp in the manner that was the practice on other Companies,  There was, for example an Instruction on the SR than when an SR freight worked onto GWR lines it had to carry a tail lamp in addition to the side lamps.

Thanks for (3) Mike.

 

I'm guessing that implies that the side lamps would need to be carried on the rear-most set of irons?

 

I've seen examples on other companies suggestive of either end being permissible and, of course, many older brake vans had reversible built-in side lamps in various positions, some on top of the duckets.

 

Also, did the SR practice persist until the issue of the first BR Rulebook, or was uniformity imposed sooner?

 

John

[Wickham Green too]

SR Rule Book 1936

 Rule 120 (a) " ... Southern Railway Goods trains must carry on the last vehicle two side lamps only, which will serve as tail lamps, viz., one each side of the trailing end of the vehicle ...". This note and the one concerning the need for fully fitted LNER Freight not to carry side lights are omitted from the BR 1950 rules - and are unlikely to have been deleted in the two years since Nationalisation. { Interesting that the LNER had freight train and the Southern had goods trains ! )

[Andy WD]

Now the owner of a couple of these, early and late SR versions.
I couldn't decide either!
 

[Jack]

So, being a Kadee users I was a little disappointed by the lack of NEM 362 pockets.

 

However, thankfully the coupling mounts unscrew, so I cut them down and glued a spare pocket onto the remains, then replaced it and clipped a #19 kadee in. All good 😁

[Oldddudders]

8 hours ago, Jack said:

So, being a Kadee users I was a little disappointed by the lack of NEM 362 pockets.

 

However, thankfully the coupling mounts unscrew, so I cut them down and glued a spare pocket onto the remains, then replaced it and clipped a #19 kadee in. All good 😁

Puzzled by this. The pic of the underside on page 1 of this thread clearly shows a Kadee fishtail receptacle, albeit without a box. Surely one of the 17-20 range would fit directly?

[Dunsignalling]

45 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Puzzled by this. The pic of the underside on page 1 of this thread clearly shows a Kadee fishtail receptacle, albeit without a box. Surely one of the 17-20 range would fit directly?

It's actually the NEM dovetail, intended to accept the pocket which, in this case, would stick out an awful long way. The tails of NEM Kadees aren't designed to fit directly into it but can be so attached using superglue.

 

However, the vertical alignment is must be taken care of by the "installer". When I do it I build up the area in front of the slot with plasticard to assist level and correct alignment, but also to increase the bonding area.

 

My brake vans are currently "trunked awaiting Siphons", which is handy as I'm away next week. I plan to "lose" the NEM mount altogether and use "proper" Kadees (probably #146 or #141) on my models. I will post pictures in a fortnight or so when I've had chance to work out the method.

 

I'm hoping the brake rodding and yokes will unclip to give me a little elbow room!

 

John

Edited June 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Jack]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm hoping the brake rodding and yokes will unclip to give me a little elbow room!

 

Yes, the brake rodding unclips - it is also quite flexible, so you can almost work around it.  The NEM363 coupling mount also unscrews, which makes life a bit easier.  Be warned, if you take both pockets off at once, the screws also hold the body to the chassis.

 

I went for the option of gluing an NEM pocket on because I didn't have any other bits in my Kadee box and I was being impatient.  It would be good to know which of the 140 series couplings works best with these.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 28/05/2023 at 20:40, The Stationmaster said:

2. By the 1930s if not earlier (I haven't checked that as fas as 'earlier' is concerned) , removing the red shade from one of the side lamps to createa  white light to the rear would indicate to a Driver which line the van he could see ahead was. running on (And oi could be somewhat scary  on a curved quadruple travck route coming up behind one in the dark when the Guard had been too idle to alter his lamps).

 

 

Historically there were some subtle differences. 

 

The 1912 GCR rule book said three red lamps must be carried while on any running line, but the use of side lamps had been discontinued on certain railways for passenger trains, and that where trains are running on parallel lines special regulations will be made as necessary to meet the circumstances of each case.

 

I suspect that amounted to broadly the same thing.

 

The 1922 LNWR book is similar, but says also details different rules for some different companies

• GNR if your van doesn't have a removable red slide you removed the lamp nearest the main line
• GWR on a relief line remove the lamp nearest the main line, and  if there's a third line such as a goods loop, no side lights
• NER when not on main line turn the lamp nearest the main line; instructions apply also to all trains on certain specified Passenger lines parallel to the main line,
• MR on main line three red in triangular layout, on goods lines, three lamps in straight horizontal line, on both additional red lamp at bottom to indicate special train following

 

PS - sorry I can't keep this on topic as I dont have an SECR rule book!

Edited June 1, 2023 by Michael Hodgson

[Pre Grouping fan]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Puzzled by this. The pic of the underside on page 1 of this thread clearly shows a Kadee fishtail receptacle, albeit without a box. Surely one of the 17-20 range would fit directly?

 

It's positioned too close to the headstock so once you allow for the NEM pocket and the Kadee, the resultant gap between vehicles would be larger than usual 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Jack said:

 

Yes, the brake rodding unclips - it is also quite flexible, so you can almost work around it.  The NEM363 coupling mount also unscrews, which makes life a bit easier.  Be warned, if you take both pockets off at once, the screws also hold the body to the chassis.

 

I went for the option of gluing an NEM pocket on because I didn't have any other bits in my Kadee box and I was being impatient.  It would be good to know which of the 140 series couplings works best with these.

Thanks for the info.

 

The body coming loose is a bonus from my p.o.v.👍

 

Being able to work on just the chassis gives me a few more choices, but it's nicer if one is expecting it to happen! 😀

 

John

Edited June 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

It's positioned too close to the headstock so once you allow for the NEM pocket and the Kadee, the resultant gap between vehicles would be larger than usual 

Yes, that's pretty evident from the photo, though I'm not a fan of NEM fittings anyway.

 

They usually look crude and clunky in my view and I only retain them in CCUs or if it looks too much like hard work to replace them with a "Whisker" Kadee. 

 

Hopefully the screw hole will be positioned as it is on the SECR van.  

 

Re-drilling and tapping it to take a Kadee screw let me fit a #146 Kadee exactly where I wanted it.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Jack said:

 

It would be good to know which of the 140 series couplings works best with these.

 

Watch this space when I get back from my holiday! My guess is #146 or #141 as mentioned earlier but those are my "usual suspects" for 99% of wagons.... 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[BVMR21]

The shop I've preordered with is apparently still waiting for these to turn up, but hopefully not too much longer and my fleet of brake vans should be complete.

[JSpencer]

My KESR 2010 special arrived today. These vans are quite compact.

 

So here she is with KESR preserved P class 753 and other preserved Rapido SECR wagons (albeit those are preserved on the Bluebell):

 

 

[BlueLightning]

Good to see the brake van made it across the channel to you! Looks fantastic on your layout!

 

Gary

[JSpencer]

26 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Good to see the brake van made it across the channel to you! Looks fantastic on your layout!

 

Gary

Thanks Gary.

[JSpencer]

A couple more pics showing the different veranda's on each end. 2010 was one of the original 1898 batch (single veranda) which later had a second veranda added.

 

 

[wainwright1]

I have the preserved one from Train Times as well and very nice it is.

I bought two of the single veranda ones from Rails. One is in the SER red livery and looks good. Now all we need is some SER wagons to go with it.

I also have one of the SE&CR ones which is lettered in the early SE&CR Wainwright style. Now this should a lead grey colour similar to the preserved one, but it is darker, more like the later Maunsell grey. Does anyone else have this and what do they think ? Rails have produced two of the grey ones and I am not sure if they are both the same shade.

This is not a complaint and I can live with it and weather it down to a lighter leadier shade. Was it painted darker for a specific reason based on research ?

 

All the best

Ray

[KymN]

14 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

Good to see the brake van made it across the channel to you! Looks fantastic on your layout!

 

Gary

 

On 02/06/2023 at 00:27, Dunsignalling said:

 

Watch this space when I get back from my holiday! My guess is #146 or #141 as mentioned earlier but those are my "usual suspects" for 99% of wagons.... 

I appreciate this discussion - I realised early on that 'NEM' might mean several different things.  I have received two vans to date, and will have to find a way to fit Kadees. We are now back to cutting off and starting again.  The old 'faithful ' #5 keeps on appearing. Technology is going backwards, just faster.

[Geoff_E]

4 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I have the preserved one from Train Times as well and very nice it is.

I bought two of the single veranda ones from Rails. One is in the SER red livery and looks good. Now all we need is some SER wagons to go with it.

I also have one of the SE&CR ones which is lettered in the early SE&CR Wainwright style. Now this should a lead grey colour similar to the preserved one, but it is darker, more like the later Maunsell grey. Does anyone else have this and what do they think ? Rails have produced two of the grey ones and I am not sure if they are both the same shade.

This is not a complaint and I can live with it and weather it down to a lighter leadier shade. Was it painted darker for a specific reason based on research ?

 

All the best

Ray

I asked Rails about the darker grey a week ago. They replied "Regarding the colour of the wagons, as and when we get any information regarding that decision I will be sure to pass it along to you."

I haven't heard any more yet.

 

Best Regards

 

Geoff

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Geoff_E