Rapido Trains UK celebrates the 50th birthday of the Leyland National – with all new model

[Corbs]

Here is a link to the page on the website:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/leyland-national-bus/

[RANGERS]

On 28/10/2022 at 18:38, 37114 said:

Beyond Reality by Doug Jack is a good book and has lots on the National.  Matthew Wharmby has also done a book on the ones in London,  again a good read.

The whole saga of Leyland in the seventies was driven by politics and "Beyond Reality" is a fairly candid account of the times, but it's also comparatively reserved in its commentary of those contemporary politics, both inside and outside the industry. Doug had a dry sense of humour which more than matched his Scottish lawyer background and said wryly on more than one occasion that the whole story could only be fully explored when all of the participants were beyond suing him. Sadly, he left us before some of those prospective litigants, so his first hand knowledge of what went on in those times will remain the stuff of legend.

[Bishdurham]

Good to see a Poppy Red Northern on route 775/8 Sunderland to Consett is not included in the first batch. Used to catch them to visit my girlfriend of the time, in Consett.  Was the journey from Hell, Almost a straight road to Chester Le Street and then a wait and then a trip around all the villages.  If you came to a junction and it said turn left for Consett, you knew the bus would turn right!  It was almost quicker to ride my bike after the rails on the Annfield Plain Branch were lifted!

 

If one were made I might have to buy it for old time sake!

[AY Mod]

Sadly (as I was looking forward to this) the Leyland Nationals are on hold according to the newsletter.

 

"Leyland National

 

Since announcing this project the response to it could be best described as lukewarm. Whilst Jason and several members of the team are bus nutters they require a lot of effort to produce. They have just as much detail as a high-quality railway carriage and take a lot of effort for the factory to produce.

 

However, compared to a railway vehicle the sales are often vastly smaller and thus as a company we make little return – often a 4-wheel wagon will exceed a model bus in sales. Unfortunately, even removing the lights or posable wheels will make absolutely no difference to its viability.

 

We make buses because we want to – but in the current climate it is just not the right time. We know this will be a disappointment to some – hopefully, things will improve, and we can reassess the viability of the project in the future, along with the two other unannounced bus models we have nearly ready for tooling."

 

Plenty of other great news in the newsletter though - https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=a224510687&view=lg&permmsgid=msg-f:1772661361104018235&ser=1

[ian]

My wallet went into hiding as soon as these were announced. I might be able to tempt it back out now...

 

Sad news but perfectly understandable.

[wombatofludham]

I have a feeling this might be a permanent pause based on comments made in previous newsletters. Unfortunately this was probably the only Rapido product I was in line to purchase as the range is heavily biased towards the steam era modeller.  Sad, but not entirely unexpected given the direction Rapido UK seems to be going business wise.

[Ian J.]

A shame, but the problem, I think, is liveries are so fragmented for buses. I know I'm not interested in a bus unless it's in a livery I want, and that's a short list of one. No manufacturer could produce hundreds of tiny runs of each wanted livery for any bus, so interest is very likely to be low on initial announcement and only prove out in the long run.

 

For the record, I'd have two of these in the Wilts & Dorset livery (red white black), but probably not many more than two.

[Covkid]

On 28/07/2023 at 12:23, wombatofludham said:

I have a feeling this might be a permanent pause based on comments made in previous newsletters. Unfortunately this was probably the only Rapido product I was in line to purchase as the range is heavily biased towards the steam era modeller.  Sad, but not entirely unexpected given the direction Rapido UK seems to be going business wise.

I sadly have to agree "Wombato". It seems ironic that the parent Rapido seems to be more about  70s and 80s North American stuff.  I kinda wanted the .co.uk company to steer in that direction too. The gunpowder vans were a really nice direction to follow, as are the ferryvans.  Then the absolutely delightful 16" Hunslets which I have ended up with  three. Now the NCB liveried 1907 RCHs - what is not to like the Br/insdutrial modeller.  Oh and best not forget the West Mids fleetlines and the Birmingham standards. Yes, I have a lot to thank Jason and the team for.

 

However, all the early GWR and SECR etc stuff seems to be taking Rapido down a very different path.  There is obviously a market for it and I wish Rapido all the best with it, but.........  You are making a lot of people unhappy with the shelving of the National. A really good choice - nationwide actually, and a whole cabinet full of liveries to choose from. I sadly agree with Mark that the pause may well be terminal but hope you change your minds perhaps by simplifying the tooling of the model.   

[rapidoandy]

45 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I sadly have to agree "Wombato". It seems ironic that the parent Rapido seems to be more about  70s and 80s North American stuff.  I kinda wanted the .co.uk company to steer in that direction too. The gunpowder vans were a really nice direction to follow, as are the ferryvans.  Then the absolutely delightful 16" Hunslets which I have ended up with  three. Now the NCB liveried 1907 RCHs - what is not to like the Br/insdutrial modeller.  Oh and best not forget the West Mids fleetlines and the Birmingham standards. Yes, I have a lot to thank Jason and the team for.

 

However, all the early GWR and SECR etc stuff seems to be taking Rapido down a very different path.  There is obviously a market for it and I wish Rapido all the best with it, but.........  You are making a lot of people unhappy with the shelving of the National. A really good choice - nationwide actually, and a whole cabinet full of liveries to choose from. I sadly agree with Mark that the pause may well be terminal but hope you change your minds perhaps by simplifying the tooling of the model.   

Sadly - the "lot of unhappy people" actually seems to be a small amount. The sheer amount of emails I have had from the bus model world telling me it was the wrong model to make was very telling.

 

Interesting comments on the 70s/80s stuff. What would you see us make? the NA stuff is very much Jason's wheelhouse where as with the UK company it falls to me and the team. Personally I think the 70s/80s/90s/00s market is getting quite crowded...If you have the next big seller in that area that one of the other manufacturers are certainly not doing then please do send me an email - I am always open to discussions...

[ian]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

The sheer amount of emails I have had from the bus model world telling me it was the wrong model to make was very telling.

That will happen whatever prototype you choose. Trust me on this one.

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Sadly - the "lot of unhappy people" actually seems to be a small amount. The sheer amount of emails I have had from the bus model world telling me it was the wrong model to make was very telling.

Fair enough. If that is the case, and you will have all the evidence Andy. 

2 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

 

Interesting comments on the 70s/80s stuff. What would you see us make? the NA stuff is very much Jason's wheelhouse where as with the UK company it falls to me and the team. Personally I think the 70s/80s/90s/00s market is getting quite crowded...If you have the next big seller in that area that one of the other manufacturers are certainly not doing then please do send me an email - I am always open to discussions...

 

What would I like you to produce ? Wow. Lets start with steel industry wagonry.  Iron ore hoppers of various kinds conveying stuff to steel works. At the start of their journeys they would be marshalled by Hunslet 16" 0-6-0s !!! There were many different kinds of hoppers but a really nice couple of versions of the "22T or 24T ironstone hopper which is basically an Airfix model from 30 years ago, maybe also with the BR "HJx or HKx".  These would also be used for coal, sand, sulphur and other commodities. 

 

The 21T BR (as opposed to LNER) hopper - original or rebodied, vac fitted or unfitted is another yawning gap in the RTR BR wagon fleet. 

 

A favourite which I would love to see RTR is the BR Coil K or T a short bogie coil carrier with tarpaulin hood, originally vacuum braked but dual braked in later life and actually painted into speedlink colours. They worked extensively in South Wales, but also conveyed coil to Swindon, as well as from Hamworthy docks.  Paul Bartlett's Photographs | BR Bogie slab strip Coil K & T Ferry I JTV JIX JKX BNX (zenfolio.com)

 

Or Paul Bartlett's Photographs | BR Bogie slab strip Coil K & T Ferry I JTV JIX JKX BNX (zenfolio.com)

 

These compact bogie wagons are real "space savers" and allow you to run more realistic trains. 

[wombatofludham]

Bus enthusiasts are even more difficult to satisfy than model rail enthusiasts.  However, the Leyland National is attracting a devoted fanbase and lasted many years.  I accept that in terms of production they cost as much in terms of labour as a model railway coach, but the vehicle does deserve a good model.  

I suspect any slow pre=ordering might be down to livery/fleet choices.  For example, it might have been better to tie in some West Midlands PTE/West Midlands Travel liveried items to draw in those of us who bought the WMPTE Fleetlines, and I can't help thinking a fleetname-less NBC red and NBC green version would have allowed people to add their own local fleet names using some of the after market decals.  I know un-numbered locos in the past have been sales lemons but this is different, model bus collectors are used to "Code 3" models and any model railway enthusiasts will be using them as scenery so probably won't be too worried about self decaling, unlike a loco costing several hundreds more.

However we are where we are, and whilst I am personally unhappy with the decision I'm sure I can live without the model, especially as there was only really two in the first batch that met my requirements.

[it's-er]

I recall much excitement about model buses when EFE came on the scene, I think in 1979. Before then, it was impossible to source accurate models of British buses (and lorries) complete with glazing.

 

EFE and Frank Joyce transformed the situation - they brought out a huge range of buses and lorries covering the years. But you only need a couple of buses on a layout: more than that, and it is overcrowded. 
 

Subsequently Corgi came on the market with Original Omnibus Company (OOC), as did Britbus with some interesting models. EFE, OOC and Britbus were metal bodied.

Then Base Toys came along, with plastic bodies, and they produced a superb selection of buses and lorries. Unfortunately they disappeared during one of the finance crashes.

 

I suspect the market has simply become saturated. There are still plenty of models available from all these companies - the other week I happened upon eBay listings of 1/76 scale buses and lorries, and I was surprised by the low pricing: £8-10 seems pretty normal.

 

So another Leyland National, even a superb model better than EFE’s model from the past?  As Rapido Andy suggests above, probably only for a limited number of us.

I should add this note is about 1/76 scale buses, and (a little) lorries. Classix produced some wonderful cars and small vans, and are now owned by Bachmann, who haven’t reintroduced any yet. And Oxford Diecast are today’s big player in model vehicles, but it is interesting that they have been pretty circumspect about model buses and coaches. 
 

John S

[Covkid]

11 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Bus enthusiasts are even more difficult to satisfy than model rail enthusiasts.  However, the Leyland National is attracting a devoted fanbase and lasted many years.  I accept that in terms of production they cost as much in terms of labour as a model railway coach, but the vehicle does deserve a good model.  

I suspect any slow pre=ordering might be down to livery/fleet choices.  For example, it might have been better to tie in some West Midlands PTE/West Midlands Travel liveried items to draw in those of us who bought the WMPTE Fleetlines, and I can't help thinking a fleetname-less NBC red and NBC green version would have allowed people to add their own local fleet names using some of the after market decals.  I know un-numbered locos in the past have been sales lemons but this is different, model bus collectors are used to "Code 3" models and any model railway enthusiasts will be using them as scenery so probably won't be too worried about self decaling, unlike a loco costing several hundreds more.

However we are where we are, and whilst I am personally unhappy with the decision I'm sure I can live without the model, especially as there was only really two in the first batch that met my requirements.

 

Absolutely agree.

My National choices would be a Crosville one harking back to my teen years, but it would be one of the shorty podless examples which I remember seeing off the Bristols.  I then moved back to the Midlands ands remember the WMPTE beige Nationals in the 44xx and 45xx series and the much nice looking Dual Purpose 68xx series, of which I would have had both variants.  IO would also have had a couple of Midland Red and finally the Chase bus service "Manchester" liveried orange and white. 

 

However. It seems clear the National ride is over.

 

As you say Tilling red and Tilling green would allow much more scope for modellers, but not so much for the collectors who like the individual catalogued examples I suppose i

[Covkid]

41 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Fair enough. If that is the case, and you will have all the evidence Andy. 

 

What would I like you to produce ? Wow. Lets start with steel industry wagonry.  Iron ore hoppers of various kinds conveying stuff to steel works. At the start of their journeys they would be marshalled by Hunslet 16" 0-6-0s !!! There were many different kinds of hoppers but a really nice couple of versions of the "22T or 24T ironstone hopper which is basically an Airfix model from 30 years ago, maybe also with the BR "HJx or HKx".  These would also be used for coal, sand, sulphur and other commodities. 

 

The 21T BR (as opposed to LNER) hopper - original or rebodied, vac fitted or unfitted is another yawning gap in the RTR BR wagon fleet. 

 

A favourite which I would love to see RTR is the BR Coil K or T a short bogie coil carrier with tarpaulin hood, originally vacuum braked but dual braked in later life and actually painted into speedlink colours. They worked extensively in South Wales, but also conveyed coil to Swindon, as well as from Hamworthy docks.  Paul Bartlett's Photographs | BR Bogie slab strip Coil K & T Ferry I JTV JIX JKX BNX (zenfolio.com)

 

Or Paul Bartlett's Photographs | BR Bogie slab strip Coil K & T Ferry I JTV JIX JKX BNX (zenfolio.com)

 

These compact bogie wagons are real "space savers" and allow you to run more realistic trains. 

For reference, I have copied this post into the general Rapido thread

[stewartingram]

Talking of Tilling (red or cream), Corgi produced both a K d/d and L s/d - not the best models, but passable. They could do with a refresh. But even more so, the highbridge version of the Bristol d/d, in (preferably) 7'6" wide guise, or (my all time favourite bus) the 8' wide KSW version. Both have been covered by kits, never RTP, but the narrow one has always been scarcer than the wider one. Used all over the Tilling areas , the narrow ones were even loaned to London when new!

Edited August 8, 2023 by stewartingram

[wombatofludham]

8 minutes ago, it's-er said:

I recall much excitement about model buses when EFE came on the scene, I think in 1979. Before then, it was impossible to source accurate models of British buses (and lorries) complete with glazing.

 

EFE and Frank Joyce transformed the situation - they brought out a huge range of buses and lorries covering the years. But you only need a couple of buses on a layout: more than that, and it is overcrowded. 
 

Subsequently Corgi came on the market with Original Omnibus Company (OOC), as did Britbus with some interesting models. EFE, OOC and Britbus were metal bodied.

Then Base Toys came along, with plastic bodies, and they produced a superb selection of buses and lorries. Unfortunately they disappeared during one of the finance crashes.

 

I suspect the market has simply become saturated. There are still plenty of models available from all these companies - the other week I happened upon eBay listings of 1/76 scale buses and lorries, and I was surprised by the low pricing: £8-10 seems pretty normal.

 

So another Leyland National, even a superb model better than EFE’s model from the past?  As Rapido Andy suggests above, probably only for a limited number of us.

I should add this note is about 1/76 scale buses, and (a little) lorries. Classix produced some wonderful cars and small vans, and are now owned by Bachmann, who haven’t reintroduced any yet. And Oxford Diecast are today’s big player in model vehicles, but it is interesting that they have been pretty circumspect about model buses and coaches. 
 

John S

It's a bit more nuanced than that.

The mass produced model bus collecting market crashed many moons ago, but there are still companies producing much more expensive - £50+ - models out there, some die cast, some in resin.  They sell.  Which is why there is a market for a Leyland National that actually looks like one to the similar level of detail of the WMPTE Fleetline.  The cheap remaindered models you refer to are the over produced so called "limited editions" which were nothing of the sort.  Also, let's not forget the EFE model was a relatively early production by the company and suffers from some of the compromises the then technology and need to tool up for as many versions as possible brought with it.

Oxford have launched this year the Alexander M type Anglo Scottish motorway coach, a Duple Roadmaster, and have in the past few years launched a Leyland PD2, Beadle full front 1940s coach, the SARO bodied Leyland single deck bus of the 1950s and 60s,  a Duple Commander coach from the 60s, a Bristol MW coach and the wonderful Bedford OWB.  I would suggest the Beadle coach and the Alexander M Type are probably as niche as they come, yet Oxford have tooled them up.  Again suggesting there is a market for model buses after all.  Even EFE which went deathly quiet after their takeover by Bachmann have announced the long in planning Cravens bodied RT, first announced before Bachmann took over is now on the way to shops, which is a new tooling.

It's easy to see low second hand values of over produced models like the nice Harrington Cavalier and others.and suggest there is no longer any interest in bus models.  Whilst it is not as big as it once was, the continuing output of Creative Master Northcord and Oxford of bus models together with the re=emergence of EFE bus models under new ownership says there is still a market, an increasingly discerning market willing to pay £50+ for a good model and given the National hits an increasingly important 1970s interest, suggests that the suggestions there is no market might not be completely the case.

[Bucoops]

It's a shame, but if the numbers don't add up...

 

I would have had one in Eastern National livery and probably bought one or two for my bus fan Mother in Law's boyfriend.

 

But two or 3 isn't many in the swing of things.

[darrel]

How about trams? There is a distinct lack of them in 00 gauge. 

[davknigh]

8 minutes ago, darrel said:

How about trams? There is a distinct lack of them in 00 gauge. 

Hear, hear! Glasgow Standard , Coronation, or Cunarder please.  All available to scan IIRC 🤗

 

Cheers,

 

David

[darrel]

9 hours ago, davknigh said:

Hear, hear! Glasgow Standard , Coronation, or Cunarder please.  All available to scan IIRC 🤗

 

Cheers,

 

David

Coming from Glasgow I couldn't agree more. 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, darrel said:

Coming from Glasgow I couldn't agree more. 

Me too .  The Coronation tram was way ahead of its time . Art deco streamlining I’m sure many would buy it as a piece of art .

 

The buses market is saturated but there are still major omissions . A fleet line with Alexander D bodywork as used by SBG is one of them .  If it helps float Rapidos boat I think Midland Red even operated them ! 

[RANGERS]

11 hours ago, Bucoops said:

It's a shame, but if the numbers don't add up...

 

I would have had one in Eastern National livery and probably bought one or two for my bus fan Mother in Law's boyfriend.

 

But two or 3 isn't many in the swing of things.

Your MIL is a bus fan?…

[Bucoops]

10 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

Your MIL is a bus fan?…

 

No but her boyfriend is :)

[ian]

1 hour ago, RANGERS said:

Your MIL is a bus fan

That sounds like a line cut from the French taunter scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.