Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[Removed a/c]

Anyone had any issues with it jumping of the track?

[Trevellan]

Looks good Gareth. The weathering certainly helps to tone down the yellow front.

[Ceptic]

Respect. Love a bit of hacksaw action! but for me the cab still looks wrong - wayyy too chubby and that seems pointedly obvious from the prototype images posted here. Reminds me of the Tubby Duff - you think you can live with it until its pointed out. So disappointing. And I still don't understand how these basic but critical shape errors get through the commissioning process without someone who can make the call jumping on them, pointing it out and getting it fixed. Its obviously not something that we amateurs can do anything about as its often too late by the time. Better keep my hacksaws sharpened.

R

 

Just had a quick once-over. The width checks out OK (0.2mm. up), but, when compared, cab to cab, against Bachmann's 2 - EPB, the VEP sits about 2mm. lower at roof level, and the body sides don't appear to be the same height. The VEP's being about 1mm. lower. lt needs a closer inspection, wearing me nit-pickers hat, vernier in one hand and magnifying glass in the other.

"Nurse,.. The screens, lf you please"

[Gwiwer]

2mm lower along the roof line will show up in a mixed-formation train. While the prototype also didn't have exactly even rooflines due to uneven passenger loading and different suspensions it wasn't in the order of 5 - 6 inches.

[John M Upton]

Finally got to look at one in the flesh, the blue one in a rather unhelpfully positioned bottom glass cabinet at Engine Shed/Gaugemaster amidst their bi-annual big open weekend.

 

It was chaos....

 

Anyway, back to the VEP! Whilst I can live with the cab front door error and correct it later using either something adapted from an MJT front end or maybe an etch of some kind (An idea for Brian at Shawplan perhaps?) I still think the horns on the roof are really small and weedy!!

 

The one thing I really need to know is how easy will it be to get the glazing out as I am looking to repaint one in Southern livery (3514) at some point unless someone commissions an limited edition in the meantime. Thing is as I work for said company, chance are knowing the way the railway grape vine works if someone had approached the management for permission to produce 3514, a rumour would have floated down to me by now so as it hasn't, I had better stock up on paint again...

[Gwiwer]

I am keen to hear from rank and file modellers how they run on layouts. Is the motor man enough and can it cope with typical layout gradients? Does the unit run smoothly and across the entire speed range? How well do two run coupled together?

 

By way of comparison the Bachmann Cep and EPB models multiple perfectly and I can run 12Cep or 8Cep+2EPB fully confident that they will not fight each other and will do exactly as I demand with the controller.

 

In another comparison I find single Hornby class 153 cars, which have a motor apparently similar to the Vep, are good reliable runners but they don't like being paired and detest being run in threes. One tends to pull or push the other(s). They also cope with a single unpowered trailer but not three as with the Vep.

 

Anyone had a play yet?

[SRman]

That's interesting about your experiences with the Hornby class 153s, Rick. I run two or three 153s in multiple on DCC, using TCS DP2X decoders with no problems of fighting each other at all. Similarly, I have run two of my class 73s ( Lima bodies with newer Hornby mechanisms swapped in, again with TCS decoders) in multiple and they behaved perfectly also. The DCC inertia settings on CVs 3 & 4 compensate for the lack of flywheels under normal use but that is not a substitute when it comes to minor power interruptions caused by dirt on wheels or track. Add to that the traction tyres effectively reduce the pickup wheelbase and real flywheel mechanism starts to make more sense.

 

I have no doubt the VEP motor and mechanism is up to the job but I would still have preferred a real flywheel and more weight rather than traction tyres.

Edited September 10, 2011 by SRman

[gc4946]

Question about the inner couplings:

 

Do they swivel and close couple the same way as their Maunsell and Pullman carriages and do they have NEM style pockets?

 

My Bachmann 4CEP uses ordinary NEM tension locks which can be substituted without alteration instead of their electrically conductive bars, but at the expense of not having carriage and rear headcode lights which I've accepted as a trade-off. This made things easier for me as I have to pack it away each time when not in use.

[Ceptic]

Some comparison pics. Re. height.

 

Hornby VEP vs. Bachmann EPB & CEP.

 

 

 

 

And an underside view of the inner ends' couplings. They do extend / swivel, held together by a very small PK screw, but, unfortunately, with no NEM sockets present.

 

 

 

The proverbial 'Curate's egg', IMHO.

 

Regards.

[Gwiwer]

Thank you.

 

Sadly for me those images make the Vep look even more "wrong" than before. The horns, shoe-beam and jumper cables look skinny. The overall height and the bodyside height in particular looks wrong. The cab window surrounds especially compared with the blue Cep are dreadfully over-size and the wheels look coarse and less refined than their Bachmann counterparts. I am of course prepared to be proven wrong by someone with appropriate measuring instruments but my gut feeling is the Bachmann products have exactly the right look and feel.

 

Good in parts, yes, but at the price not good enough in sufficient parts to persuade me that I need one. As I mentioned above if it were a Railroad item looking like that and in the Railroad price then it may pass muster at that level. However I was hoping for better from Hornby knowing how good they can sometimes be. Please may we have a return to the standards of the 50 and 60 classes?

[gc4946]

Thanks for showing us the inter-unit couplings, how did you couple them up?

 

It looks like to me that you have to turn the carriages upside down to link up fully as there are two sets of plastic prongs with pins and sockets to mate and you'll need a 4 foot long space to assemble and rail the unit.

Are there instructions about how to assemble the VEP correctly (like Bachmann did with their CEP)?

 

Also, how effective was the carriage lighting?

[petee19]

Having read the various reviews in the model press, and post's on this site I cancelled my order with Hattons for the VEP last week,my only hope now is that the Brighton Belle is a better produced model.

[John M Upton]

My goodness that shoe beam on the VEP is weedy!! It should be pretty much the same substantial well mounted chunk of tree trunk that the CEP has. Send that out into service and I can think the morning rush will be heavily disrupted as VEP's shed their shoe beams all over the place!!

Edited September 11, 2011 by John M Upton

[Gilwell Park]

Hi. Have a look at the pictures of real VEPs earlier in this thread. Then compare the shoe beam with the Hornby model.

 

Roger.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Actual the shoe beam isn't that far out - the ones on B4 bogies are nowhere near as big as the great chunks of wood on the older units. Take a look at http://semgonline.com/gallery/class421_07.html

 

The EPB/CEP/VEP comparison is interesting as it shows that none of these models sits at the same height on their bogies!

[Ceptic]

Actual the shoe beam isn't that far out - the ones on B4 bogies are nowhere near as big as the great chunks of wood on the older units. Take a look at http://semgonline.co...lass421_07.html

 

The EPB/CEP/VEP comparison is interesting as it shows that none of these models sits at the same height on their bogies!

 

Yep, this was noted. All pictures are of un-motored (light) trailers. Compare the height of the body sides, and the roof.

[Godfrey Glyn]

Just to add a bit more grist to the discussion I attach a photo that I took at the last Open Day at Eastleigh. There is no doubt that painting the window frames silver significantly changes the appearance. I actually don't think the appearance of the jumper leads is too far out on the model, the size of the shoes are more difficult to assess but they are quite 'light' on the actual 4VEP.

Godfrey

[RFS]

Can anyone tell me if the non-motorized coaches have pickups for the lighting circuits like the Bachmann CEP/EPB vehicles? I'm using DCC automation with occupancy sensors, and just placing any single CEP/EPB coach onto the track causes the occupancy sensor to detect it. But what about the VEP, in particular the DTCs? I was expecting to have to create resistor wheelsets for the VEP but I'm not sure if this is possible.

 

Like others, I had a pre-order with Hattons but having seen the reviews so far, I was disappointed and cancelled it. I do hope Hormby make a better job of the Brighton Belle or that will be cancelled too.

[Gilwell Park]

Hi. I do think people are being over critical. If we wait for Hornby or Bachmann to produce a perfect model we will never have anything to run. Unless of course we make our own. My model making skills do not match current commercial production so I am happy to use what is available and tweak as necessary. We are supposed to be modellers after all.

 

Roger.

[gc4946]

Model Rail's September issue has a photo of the underside of one of the DTCs and the only electrical connection shown is the coupler at the inner end.

Its review states on p.17:

"The mechanics of the unit are surprisingly simple, and confined to the the motor brake second (MBS) vehicle. The through wiring via the couplers only operate the lighting system in the other three coaches, and the headcodes. There are no electrical pickups on the trailer cars"

[steve1023]

The side-on images show the gangway connection on the VEP is way too large - a comparison is this side-on view of a 4TC

http://www.flickr.com/photos/leeayling/5507220140/ - different class of unit but same front end.

 

I'm considering replacing the gangway with the MJT one - I'll decide when my VEP arrives.

 

Steve

[RFS]

The side-on images show the gangway connection on the VEP is way too large - a comparison is this side-on view of a 4TC

http://www.flickr.co...ing/5507220140/ - different class of unit but same front end.

 

I'm considering replacing the gangway with the MJT one - I'll decide when my VEP arrives.

 

Steve

 

And just look at the size of those air-horns compared to what Hornby have fitted to the model!

[S.A.C Martin]

Hi. I do think people are being over critical. If we wait for Hornby or Bachmann to produce a perfect model we will never have anything to run. Unless of course we make our own. My model making skills do not match current commercial production so I am happy to use what is available and tweak as necessary. We are supposed to be modellers after all.

 

Roger.

 

Sorry Roger, I can't say I agree with that at all. If Bachman can produce the similar EMU, the 4CEP, to an arguably higher standard, and - as has been seen with the class 60 and 56 - Hornby can produce absolutely stunning models with a high specification, how and why has the Hornby VEP appeared - with the RRP it has - with so many below spec problems?

 

I cannot fathom how Hornby can go from this time last year, producing the stunning Thompson L1, and previous form with the Pullman Observation coach, twelve wheelers and the Clan/Castle and so on and so forth, and then produce a competitively priced EMU whose spec is significantly lower than the rest of its range.

 

I'm dumbfounded, frankly. The air horn issue raised above is another eye opener. Are there any more? I was really looking forward to this release but I am not that confident a modeller to buy a £140+ train and immediately carve it up. Kudos to Gareth for his excellent modelling, and I'm sure a lot of other people will make those adjustments too, but for the price you are paying the 4VEP seems to have been overscored thus far in the mags.

 

I may change my mind by seeing one in the flesh, but this thread is not exactly giving me confidence in the model at all.

Edited September 11, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[zarniwhoop]

I am keen to hear from rank and file modellers how they run on layouts. Is the motor man enough and can it cope with typical layout gradients? Does the unit run smoothly and across the entire speed range? How well do two run coupled together?

 

By way of comparison the Bachmann Cep and EPB models multiple perfectly and I can run 12Cep or 8Cep+2EPB fully confident that they will not fight each other and will do exactly as I demand with the controller.

 

In another comparison I find single Hornby class 153 cars, which have a motor apestion parently similar to the Vep, are good reliable runners but they don't like being paired and detest being run in threes. One tends to pull or push the other(s). They also cope with a single unpowered trailer but not three as with the Vep.

 

For the first question (I'm using d.c. and I don't think I have any way of coupling two units except by separately railing them and then sliding them together, which I don't wish to do, and anyway my test loop is only 5'x3' in old money) - one on its own runs OK, but it tends to derail at speed if the motorcoach is pushing (i.e. third coach in unit - the motor bogie is then pushing two and a half coaches). To specifically answer your question would depend on your gradients, but anything with traction tyres is probably not designed for gradients (and to be honest, I think gradients on 00 layouts are uncommon). The derailing might be ameliorated when I've found my back-to-back gauge, but my impression is that the end bogies don't rotate freely on my 18" curves (they can move back and forth as well as rotate, and seem to stick on my tight curves). For people with better curves, this won't be an issue, and a little weight on the end bogie sideframes might help.

 

Overall, I'm well impressed, and keen to keep the lighting even though itÅ› yet another nail in my plans to have everything easy to couple. As I wrote the other night, they *can* be coupled on the track, but in practice putting them on their sides is much more reliable.

 

ĸen, wondering how hard it will be to replace the 'late' stepboards (is that the right name?) with the longer versions appropriate to the blue VEPs.

[zarniwhoop]

 

I'm dumbfounded, frankly. The air horn issue raised above is another eye opener. Are there any more? I was really looking forward to this release but I am not that confident a modeller to buy a £140+ train and immediately carve it up. Kudos to Gareth for his excellent modelling, and I'm sure a lot of other people will make those adjustments too, but for the price you are paying the 4VEP seems to have been overscored thus far in the mags.

 

As a casual observer, the air horns aren't as noticeable as the undernourished ventilators on the roofs. Strangely, those ventilators seem to match what is on Bachmann and Hornby Mk1 coaches (even the vents on the 4-CEP seem underfed to me).

 

Yes, there are a lot of disappointments here (the motor bogie in the saloon looks almost as bad as the Bachmann motor in one of the CEP bays), but the alternative way of getting a VEP is to use the MJT sides. Kudos to those willing to do that, but for me I'll happily go with this (provided the couplings turn out to be robust) and change what I think is necessary.

 

ĸen