Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[RCAR6015]

Hi Paul, sorry to hear of your further problems with the replacement units. I'm typing up a letter as I speak, will post it here later on, if anyone would like to use portions of it for their letters, feel free; equally I'd appreciate greatly some feedback in order to make my points clearer with Hornby.

 

The best of luck to you. I am sure many people will be very interested to see Hornbys response.

[Ceptic]

I'm debating in myself whether it's worth typing up my whole experience in a polite, but firm, letter and including photographs of my modifications that were required to get it accurate first, and then its running second, and send it to Hornby themselves.

 

I don't know if it would help them, or make me feel better for having written to them directly, but for the amount it cost and the time and effort invested in it, I still do not have a satisfactorily working 4VEP at the end of the day.

 

For those of you who have put up with my moans in this thread, you have my thanks and apologies in equal measure!

 

No need to apologise for anything, at all, S.A.C Martin... Many thanks for keeping us posted.

 

As Bill notes, in post # 691, very rarely, do you get an apology from the manufacturer.

 

l e-mailed Hornby's Customer Care some 13 days ago, stating my complaint, and my adverse review of their 4-VEP, linking it to the Southern Electric Group's independent review,... and to this RMweb thread.

 

A couple of days later, 26/9, l received the standard response (no apology included)*.

 

Eleven days ago, 28/9, l received a further e-mail from Hornby, which reads, quote "Thank you for your e-mail and your links, l shall (not will)* be passing your comments onto the development team.

 

Kind regards,

 

Matt Jordan,

 

Customer Care." (still with no apology)*

 

*My bracketed comment.

 

During this time, my all Blue 4-VEP has deteriorated somewhat. When first out of the box, the smooth running, at normal speeds over 4'-6" rad. curves and straights, was pretty good. At low speed it was noisy, tho' not as much as paulin's, and still is, reluctant to crossover a large (Peco) radius crossover, without stalling, or de-railing, at a higher speed.

The most recent trial, is to ask it to climb a 1 in 50 gradient. lt accompilished this in the earliest out of the box attempts, but not in the last day, or so.

Regrettably. lve no video facilities to film, or confirm, that this Hornby product is 'Not fit for purpose'

 

l'm still awaiting a satisfying answer, (and, maybe ?, an apology)

 

Regards.

[kintbury jon]

Done a bit of tinkering this evening. I think that with slight modification, the Bachmann motor bogie + motor could be in the VEP motor coach instead of the Limby motor. Unsure of the haulage capability I tested out the 3 VEP trailers with a 4CEP motor coach. Whilst it appeared to be OK on level track, it couldn't push the trailers up one of my hills (the VEP motor can manage this). Therefore i'm not going to pursue this though this may not be an issue for others.

 

The drag on the current trailer bogies is an issue - I do wonder if there are any alternative trailer bogies that could be made to fit. I tried fitting Replica B4's but they ween't a match unfortuately. What with the fact that they do not require couplings or electrical pickups, improved bogies may improve the quality of running (maybe!)

Edited October 9, 2011 by kintbury jon

[Del]

I haven't read through the whole thread (just the last few pages) but it seems that there is no way a VEP will run around first-radius curves, even at low speed?

Feedback seems to indicate Bachmann's CEPs and EPBs have no problem.

[S.A.C Martin]

I haven't read through the whole thread (just the last few pages) but it seems that there is no way a VEP will run around first-radius curves, even at low speed?

Feedback seems to indicate Bachmann's CEPs and EPBs have no problem.

 

I wouldn't bother trying mine on it - it fails to get round my minimum radius, 2nd radius, without stalling or the motor bogie climbing the rails.

[John M Upton]

Well mine has now managed a sucessful run from fiddle yard to station and then back to fiddle yard without major drama.

 

Only taken three weeks, much swearing and several hours today (not to mention expense) of replacing sections of track it didn't like yet all other RTR locos and rolling stock had no problems with. Mind you it was an area of attention that had been waiting for some time so perhaps not such a bad thing after all!!

 

And it's still barred from platforms 2 and three until I replace one of the Peco three way points with a newer production version!!!

[5944]

The last time I heard a model make that kind of noise was thirty years ago, an old knackered Triang Class 101 with a worn out X04 motor bogie and ridged wheels!! At least that managed to pull away under its own power even if you needed ear defenders!!!

 

Exactly what I was thinking! My dad had one, the noise, acceleration (lack of) and top speed (not very high) made it seem pretty realistic.

[tetsudofan]

It's interesting watching and listening to pauln's video - a month or so ago I purchased a new Hornby Rivarossi DB-AG Cl.627 diesel railcar and it sounded just like pauln's VEP - that horrible grating sound - to which was added flashing interior lights.

 

It took me sometime convincing Ontracks that there was something wrong but, luckily, I was able to talk to them at the recent Gaugemaster Open Day and they agreed to take it back for exchange. Hope to get the replacement later this month when I make my monthly pilgrimage to the Hobby Shop at Faversham.

 

An interesting aside....the railcar cost £180.00 - yep, £180.00 for a single unit railcar!! The VEP seems cheap in comparison......

 

Keith

[gc4946]

Having heard both YouTube vids mentioned earlier on, sounds like an assembly fault in the motor bogie, has your class 627 railcar got a similar motor?

I had a Railroad class 37 loco that gave a knocking sound when going slowly, but when I tried disassembling the motor bogie to investigate, both plastic halves of the motor bogie that held the motor and gears were glued together and I found it impossible to separate both, without damage, in order to find out if any of the gears might have had unwanted plastic flash still left on them or if the internal assembly was misaligned, I never got to the bottom of that issue.

Very occasionally with other manufacturers products gears come loose on the axle(s) and this also results in slippage.

[metadyneman]

I have been reading through this entire topic with great interest and sadly some of the problems I have encountered with my 4-VEP are somewhat familiar to those posted on here. The first warning sign was a guard Iron falling off as I got it out of the box!!!

To cut a long story short, It ran really well out of the box (after being fitted with s Bachmann chip) but gradually deteriorated over a few days and is now the most frustrating train I have on my entire layout. I'm willing to put up with a few minor design niggles which can be rectified or improved on but this unit is not fit for purpose when it comes to running properties (unless you live in a hermetically sealed and sterilised environment). The electrical pick up arrangement is totally inadequate, the traction tyres impede smooth running by helping to impede electrical pick up and on my example at least two of the wires leading to the motor bogie have so far required re soldering. I haven't encountered the derailing problem on my line because it's a garden railway and the curves are no where near as tight as you would need on an indoor layout but I am less than impressed with the unit. After my initial positive results with running it in consist with my 4-CEPs I am extremely disappointed. I really hope the Brighton Belle doesn't use this arrangement. I have pre ordered one but I'm considering cancelling until I see positive indication from Hornby that the Belle will not use the same pathetic motor bogie as the one in the VEP

[davyjcrow]

My units suffer from the same poor running as everyone else unfortunately seems to have experienced. Inspired by John's wheel swap, I tried something similar - seeing as I had foolishly pre-ordered two VEPS, I took out the non-traction tyred axle on one and replaced the tyred axle on t'other to see what would happen. The jerkiness has doubtlessly improved, and I also noticed that this reduced or removed the 'clicking' noise.

 

Mind you this doesn't change the fact that the drive system is totally inadequate for a 4 car unit. Now that the tyred axle is gone, the unit has very little shove at all. So this is probably a non solution. Also I now have a VEP with two traction tyred axles, not exactly a step forward either.

 

I am also going to contact Hornby and ask them what they intend to do about the situation. With me living in Canada, the cost of sending two units back to the UK for a refund is not a very inviting prospect. If they don't propose a good solution quickly, then I think they will be damaging customer confidence that has taken years to build which would be a real shame as they have made some quality products in the past. But as they say in my industry, you're only as good as your last job!

 

Come on Hornby - manufacture a replacement die cast chassis for the motor coach with a flywheel driven can motor!!! If you did that - you would go a long way to rectifying the situation for your customers.

[Removed a/c]

I doubt at this point they even care. If they did the VEP would have been pulled from the stores by now. Totally not acceptable in my book.

[darren01]

Having read through the what has been said here this 4 VEP is a real pig in a poke of a model, I am sorry but for that amount of money shelled out for this model I would be very annoyed to have to do this much work on a RTR model just to get it to run and having to do work on the body shell as well is a bit of a joke as well.

I would no way pay out that amount and have to do all this work, but would send it back and get a refund, or ask Hornby to sort it out for me.

Seem that Hornby have gone for the cheapest option on the motors bogie and seem to have not tested it to see if it works as it should.

We should not have to do all this work ourselves to a new RTR model , I know a lot of you have wanted one of these for sometime , but sorry this model is a bit of a failure in my book .

[Oldddudders]

Come on Hornby - manufacture a replacement die cast chassis for the motor coach with a flywheel driven can motor!!! If you did that - you would go a long way to rectifying the situation for your customers.

Is that an opportunity for a Smaller Supplier to make a few £? There are clearly a large number of VEPs about as anticipation was so high, so making a conversion kit of some sort could be worthwhile. Build a better mousetrap & the world etc etc

[Godfrey Glyn]

Is that an opportunity for a Smaller Supplier to make a few £? There are clearly a large number of VEPs about as anticipation was so high, so making a conversion kit of some sort could be worthwhile. Build a better mousetrap & the world etc etc

Maybe Hornby should just talk to (the other) Godfrey at Replica Railways, his Die-cast Chassis is superb. If they are serious about developing top quality multiple units it would be the way to go, and could be financially beneficial to both parties.

 

Godfrey

[Electrostar]

Cosmetic issues aside, I would be highly surprised if Hornby isn't now aware of the problems with faulty motors and VEPs not handling curves. If a model isn't fit for purpose then it needs to be recalled and replaced. Are we to assume Hornby won't do anything until Trading Standards or TV's Watchdog gets involved? Many who own model railways want to run a product they can take straight out of the box; we cannot be expected to do all manor of modifications. Like I say, this is nothing to do with cosmetic errors - we can see those and choose whether to buy or not to buy. But if you have chosen to buy then you expect it to work. No ifs, not buts. Hornby needs to put its hands up and take responsibility.

[S.A.C Martin]

To be fair, since I've made all manner of alterations to mine, I suspect it is past the warranty stage!

 

I am considering all options on mine, that is for certain!

['CHARD]

we cannot be expected to do all manor of modifications.

 

No I think you're right; S.A.C Martin has done plenty as it is; converting it to 7802 really would be beyond the pale.

I'll wait for the 4-6-0 to be released in its own right I think.

 

[S.A.C Martin]

Let's see how this reads:

 

Simon Martin,

Imaginary Road,

Copley Hill,

Leeds,

CH60 114

11/10/11

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

I write to you with regards a current product of yours, the Hornby 4VEP (the R number is R2947).

 

I bought mine from Hattons Model Railways around a month ago, and have encountered several issues with the model, some of which I have solved myself, but one issue is beyond my expertise. I am aware that by modifying my model in the way that I have, its warranty is invalidated, but I write to suggest solutions for any batches of the 4VEP which may appear in the future.

 

On opening the box I found that what should have been the power coach was in fact unpowered. It turned out that the coach body 62467 had been fitted to the unpowered chassis of what should have been coach 71146. Sadly I did not take photographs at the time, however the 71146 body was poorly fitted onto the 62467 chassis and was bowing out towards the centre as the fit was incorrect.

 

Swapping them over so that the bodies matched their chassis solved this first issue.

 

The second issue is a design one. As manufactured, the guard irons on the trailing bogies at either end are fitted the wrong way. This also causes a problem with the placement of the steps and 3rd rail shoes on each bogie, as seen here in this photograph:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The solution I used in order to make this bogie accurate to its prototype, was to remove the guard rails, and remount them at the opposite end of the bogie. By doing this, you also need to move the steps from end to the other, and swap the 3rd rail shoes so that they are fitted on the opposite side to their original position. As seen in this photograph:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On my sample, all of the inner bogies, bar those on the power car, were attached facing the wrong way. The damper should face towards the centre of the coach, as seen in my attached photographed of one end of the coach 76923:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This can be easily solved by turning the bogies around, although in order to do so they must be unclipped from the chassis and turned.

 

The next issue regards the livery of the unit. After much debate on the RMweb forum, there is some consensus that the orange cantrail stripe along the whole of the unit should not be orange, but red, when coupled with the black painted cab at each cab end. I am not by any means an expert in these matters, but close examination of a variety of photographs of NSE 4VEPs on the net seems to bear this out. If of course this is correct as depicted, for a specific date in the unit's life, then please accept my apologies on this point.

 

Another issue emerges regarding the size of both the roof horns and the roof vents - neither of which are as prominent as they are on an actual 4VEP, both rather undersized. On my 4VEP, these are being replaced with components sourced from various cottage industries to improve the look of the unit.

 

Finally, with regards the aesthetics of the model, the end gangway connection has two major problems: firstly, being modelled in the extended position, makes the unit look distinctly odd when run as a single four car set. secondly, the door is not far enough forward in the gangway, making the gap look rather more pronounced than it should between the door and the edge of the gangway.

 

The final overall issue with the model regards the actual running of the unit. The traction tyred bogie has been a poor runner from out of the box. It finds it difficult to run on second radius curves on a simple oval of track. Much worse, the traction tyres on my particular unit appear to be disintegrating, as shown in the photograph below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have explored all the options, including whether or not my cleaning solution for the track was to blame, or that the track was laid poorly, causing damage, but none of these bear out when it is considered that the oval also plays host to similarly set up Hornby Eurostar and HST units from time to time, using similar traction tyres. Neither of these show this particular characteristic.

 

Further, the motor bogie has derailed consistently and randomly. The traction tyres appear to make the bogie "climb" the rails, causing derailments. It also starts, and stutters, on level, straight track, and finds it difficult to pull its own weight.

 

I must add that I have been a purchaser of Hornby products for some years, and have been delighted with my last few purchases - one of the superb Thompson L1 locomotives, the Hornby Railroad and Special Edition Tornados and the Flying Scotsman USA Train Pack - all superb products which worked out of the box, first time, and have proved both reliable and accurate to their respective prototypes.

 

Therefore I am sure you will appreciate, given my previous positive experiences with your products, that the 4VEP has come as an immense disappointment to me. It does not continue in the vein of the most recent Hornby products in terms of its accuracy to prototype, and its quality control in my personal experience leaves something to be desired. The design decisions regarding its motor arrangement are equally disappointing.

 

I feel that the model is not fit for purpose to that end. I will not, however, be returning my model to Hattons for return as I have modified it beyond its original specifications towards producing a satisfactory 4VEP for my own requirements. This will require a rebuilding of the power unit, most likely disposing of the motor bogie supplied altogether.

 

I feel that some degree of investigation of this model, its quality control, and its design ethos would be beneficial to all parties concerned, manufacturer, retailer and consumer. If a remotored 4VEP with all other issues outstanding were to be released in the future, and its running qualities were satisfactory and reliable, I would not hesitate in purchasing a second Hornby 4VEP.

 

However, I cannot in all good conscience at this time recommend the model in question to anyone in my immediate circle, simply on the basis that the amount of modification required to get the model accurate to its prototype (particularly with regards the bogies) is unacceptable.

 

Further, the performance of the unit on a simple train set oval is also unacceptable. For its total cost to purchase, and given there are other similarly sized models in both your own range and others, the 4VEP falls very short of "ready to run", particularly given its inadequate traction.

 

It is a terrific shame as what should be a roaring success for Hornby - a proper electric multiple unit workhorse, which should sell in droves, is simply not good enough.

 

I have no wish to go elsewhere for my purchases, but the 4VEP experience has shaken my confidence in Hornby's quality which is so obvious in other models within its ranges.

 

I feel Hornby could go some way towards satisfying the situation which is steadily emerging online if they could investigate the cause of these problems, and perhaps go part way towards solving the problems which have emerged with their eagerly anticipated product.

 

For my own part, I would simply appreciate acknowledgement of this letter, and a positive response that the company will be looking into my concerns.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Simon A.C. Martin

 

Any and all criticism gratefully received towards the completion of this letter.

Edited October 11, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

['CHARD]

Repetition of the word 'future' in para 2 - solved by deleting its first appearance in line 2.

 

'However, I cannot in all conscious' should read "conscience."

[spamcan61]

If we're polishing the English then "something of immense disappointment" sounds contradictory to me, I'd dump the "something of".

[S.A.C Martin]

Thanks chaps, I'll edit the first post. Proof reading on one's lonesome, I always miss something!

Edited October 11, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[spamcan61]

Thanks chaps, I'll edit the first post. Proof reading on one's lonesome, I always miss something!

 

I think it's pretty much impossible for anyone to proof read their own work effectively anyway.

[kintbury jon]

Is it worth mentioning the solid compartments?

[S.A.C Martin]

Is it worth mentioning the solid compartments?

 

I wasn't sure myself, as I didn't want to effectively step on anyone's toes in this thread who have solved that problem, or even effectively nick the superb suggestion of printing it clear.