What locomotives and rolling stock should be produced first?

[whart57]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

It also saw the APT and the HST arrive which would have been exciting for some.

 

Ah yes, the APT. That unfortunately became a political issue used by Thatcher's Tories as proof nationalised industries were a waste of money. Quite probably the technical issues could have ironed out but even with a technologically advanced train there were still the inherent issues around WCML which would keep coming back.

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

Add in a lot more local signal boxes still in use, track not yet rationalized, and if you don't want steam then it can offer a lot of options.

 

Now you are making a pitch for the era. That shouldn't be necessary if - as posited - the generation that are returning to the hobby would naturally gravitate towards it.

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

The BR symbol is still used today, 30 or so years after the demise of BR, to indicate trains - a pretty good indication that it was/is iconic branding.

 

Indeed it was, but it dates from 1965.

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

Your the first person to call the NSE branding boring...

 

The sectorization era of BR brought a variety of liveries to the equipment on the rails and while they may not have been eye popping (for the most part) I don't think NSE, IC Swallow, the Chocolate/Cream 142's, or some of the sprinter liveries would have been considered boring.

 

John Major, when making the initial pitch for rail privatisation, went on a nostalgia binge about Brunswick green locos and chocolate and cream coaches and how privatisation would bring that back. He wouldn't have done so if there wasn't a latent reaction to BR's liveries.

 

NSE branding wasn't bad, but it took a long time to work through and NSE was probably one of the fastest to repaint everything. There was still a lot of tired old blue around at the end of the eighties.

[luke_stevens]

On 22/06/2022 at 19:51, Ravenser said:

 

 

Somewhere in one of these threads, somebody posted a picture and link to a Class 66 kit in TT-120 from a Polish manufacturer. The finished model was in Freightliner green livery and looked pretty decent

 

So if you can pay in zlotys a decent TT-120 66 is already available...  He should certainly have a British market now

 

Someone may be able to find the post better than I can and give a link here. It's certainly a useful resource

 

That would have been me :0

 

And the next post was that of a resin cl66.

 

There enough cl66's running on the European mainland that even if NOT ONE sells in a UK livery the model will be profitable. And there is a lot of stock avaluiable to run behind a cl66 juts not specifically British

 

Luke.

 

https://www.eaos.pl/class-66/

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Yet the reason for my initial comment was to challenge an assumption that the market would be healthy for blue diesels because of the generation that spotted them as teenagers.

The market for blue diesels seems pretty healthy to me, in O Scale, which the naysayers said there was no market for, some years ago, amidst the wailing & gnashing of teeth that R-T-R would dumb down the scale by removing the need to be a skilled metal worker & scratchbuilder. 

I think they just didn't want to let riff-raff like me in. 😝😝😝

 

Just because the railways were STILL in a state of decline in the '70s doesn't make it any less interesting or negate anyone's nostalgia for the Blue Railway. They were in decline waaay before 1970, and Green Diesels did nothing to halt that.

[andythenorth]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Well I was, and no, they weren't that interesting from a railway perspective. Not compared to a dozen years earlier when steam was transitioning to diesel.

Wasn't there, don't know.  Child of the 1970s, steam engines mean nothing to me, nice as they are when you see one.

 

The brief window from 100% banger blue through to privatisation is fascinating.  The death of the old railway, and the move to Gerry Fienes-ish vision of 3000 hp diesels, low station dwell times, the ruthless rationalisation of aging infrastructure.  The switch from vac brake or class 9 freight to ABN and high-capacity, high-speed leased wagons. HST.  The failure of APT.  The birth and death of Speedlink, Intercity, Network South East, RES Systems, Scotrail and Regional Railways.  The imposition and then fragmentation of a single corporate identity.  The rediscovery of the value of branding and design. 

 

Fascinating. 

 

Steam engines on heritage lines are liked caged zoo animals to me.  

Edited June 23, 2022 by andythenorth

[HSB]

I am old enough to remember steam on BR and while I used to collect numbers I was far more excited at seeing the new, modern diesels. I particularly remember sitting on Dawlish Warren one afternoon in the early Sixties watching a succession of Westerns passing in all their different liveries. I would certainly prefer some more BR diesels to go with the 31 along with some appropriate rolling stock. Some BR ferry wagons might be a good early choice to produce with their potential sales on the continent.

[whart57]

12 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

The market for blue diesels seems pretty healthy to me, in O Scale, which the naysayers said there was no market for, some years ago, amidst the wailing & gnashing of teeth that R-T-R would dumb down the scale by removing the need to be a skilled metal worker & scratchbuilder. 

I think they just didn't want to let riff-raff like me in. 😝😝😝

 

Have I slipped into a Brexit debate with all that mythology of "wailing & gnashing of teeth" and claims that the unwashed were being shut out? Can we stick to model railways?

 

The great thing of BR blue diesels from a manufacturers point of view is that nearly all of them appeared in a pre-BR Blue livery and a post-sectorisation livery too. Three bites of the cherry.

 

 

12 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

Just because the railways were STILL in a state of decline in the '70s doesn't make it any less interesting or negate anyone's nostalgia for the Blue Railway. They were in decline waaay before 1970, and Green Diesels did nothing to halt that.

 

No, but the popular response to the introduction of "Deltic" in the late fifties and the APT in the 1970s was very different. "Deltic" captured the popular imagination. At the time colour reproduction in comics and magazines was expensive but editors were still prepared to use it for colour spreads of the prototype in its bright blue livery. There was real excitement about the way things were going with rail.

 

The APT could have generated similar excitement, but instead it produced as much cynicism as positive coverage. The times were different.

[Hobby]

19 hours ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

It’s a not a Tram, it’s a Alstom Coradia LINT. 
 

 

(Image above from here : https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alstom_'Coradia_-_Lint_27'_single-car_DMU_No._640_010.jpg)

 

Got one of those Siku models somewhere, it's a nice model for a push along, they also do a short railcar of some sort:

 

https://www.guvensanat.com/siku-maket-metal-tasit-tren-1120-n1013-local-train-nahverkehrszug

[Hobby]

Back on topic, I suppose things will depend on the manufacturers, all this thread shows is the massive variety of wants! Personally I think they'll go for a combination of modern stuff and locos that can be seen on preserved lines, so expect a couple of large express steam locos sooner rather than later and Mk 1 coaches...

 

From a personal point of view a Black Five would be nice!

Edited June 24, 2022 by Hobby

[Lacathedrale]

Frankly, I'd be happy with a cohesive set of motive power, coaches and freight stock - whatever the era or geographic focus: a passenger express, a mixed traffic, a tank branch/shunter, some coaches with wide applicability and some freight wagons with a brake van. I think the worst thing that could happen would be a completely fragmented approach where there are no overlaps to the products being produced: did a Class 31 ever run on GW metals? Did an Austerity? How many 16T wagons has a Class 66 pulled? etc. etc.

[whart57]

23 hours ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

It’s a not a Tram, it’s a Alstom Coradia LINT. 
 

 

(Image above from here : https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alstom_'Coradia_-_Lint_27'_single-car_DMU_No._640_010.jpg)

 

Elsewhere on rmweb I was once involved in a discussion on what some lines might look like today if more rail-friendly governments had resisted various closures. Somewhat provocatively I suggested that the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire - which stayed open as a MoD operation until the 1960s and the stub to Shrewsbury Abbey was operated as a long siding up to c1980 - might have had a rail service restored and that it would be operating today with a couple of LINTs paid for out of (cough) the EU regional development fund.

 

Maybe, with a TT:120 model of one a small layout of Shrewsbury Abbey 2019 (to ignore COVID) ought to be built.

[Hobby]

6 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

did a Class 31 ever run on GW metals? 

 

According to Wiki Old Oak had 19 and Bristol Bath Road 13 in March 1974!

[Lacathedrale]

Fair play! I was being a little glib but hopefully my point still comes across :)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

Back on topic, I suppose things will depend on the manufacturers, all this thread shows is the massive variety of wants! Personally I think they'll go for a combination of modern stuff and locos that can be seen on preserved lines, so expect a couple of large express steam locos sooner rather than later and Mk 1 coaches...

 

From a personal point of view a Black Five would be nice!

 

37 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

I suspect (and I am not volunteering) what we need is a full on wishlist poll as done for OO by @BMacdermottet all.  A massive task but no pain, no gain 🤷‍♂️

 

The OO Wishlist Poll team do an amazing job, but I believe they ask that only people who might buy anything new participate in the voting (fair enough from a poll credibility perspective, and from a  manufacturer's point of view).

 

One of the aims of TT:120 announcements is to grow and develop a market that didn't even exist three weeks ago, so choices / options have to have that in mind - what will tempt people to try TT:120 ?  That may introduce some different considerations - the clean sheet v the saturated market.

 

It means projected sales aim to exceed the number of current voters.

 

Maybe that aligns more closely with @eldomtom2's original question: what should be produced first.  I somehow doubt we'd reach a consensus, but the answer may be quite different to what I'd like.  Just a thought, Keith.

[Hobby]

I think they started off as a one region loco (East Anglia) but then spread out all over the place, I was still spotting in the 70s and we saw the odd one up in the NW! Of course they also worked for NR in yellow and got around a bit then as well... Other than a 47 or 37 they probably got around the most of the "main line" diesels and were (are?) very long lived!

[Hobby]

4 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Maybe that aligns more closely with @eldomtom2's original question: what should be produced first.  I somehow doubt we'd reach a consensus, but the answer may be quite different to what I'd like.  Just a thought, Keith.

 

I agree and hence I suggested that an express loco will be on the cards if things do move, based on popularity FS or Mallard no doubt!

[andythenorth]

11 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Maybe that aligns more closely with @eldomtom2's original question: what should be produced first.  I somehow doubt we'd reach a consensus, but the answer may be quite different to what I'd like.  Just a thought, Keith.

 

A few people have given fairly plausible lists of obvious candidates in various threads 🙂

• Mk1s
• 20t brake van (LNER / BR pattern)
• 16 foot BR wagons, e.g. mineral, van, maybe a steel open
• 20t tank wagon

Plausible for 1950s-1980s, wide range of liveries, suits the 31.

 

Wide range of applicability, from a full multi-track mainline down to a depot or shunting plank micro layout. 

 

Probably safe. 🙂

 

Quite boring. 🙂

 

Not what I'd want, but I'd buy them anyway. 💰

 

This is the purely logical answer.

 

Me, I'm hoping that some of the niche manufacturers jump in with surprises. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by andythenorth

[Jeff Smith]

Presumably, from the lower risk manufacturing aspect, a D/E loco is relatively straightforward using the now common layout of centre motor driving both bogies, combined with a fairly simple to make body.  Also the out of scale wheels are well hidden leading to an acceptable look.

[andythenorth]

17 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

A few people have given fairly plausible lists of obvious candidates in various threads 🙂

• Mk1s
• 20t brake van (LNER / BR pattern)
• 16 foot BR wagons, e.g. mineral, van, maybe a steel open
• 20t tank wagon

Plausible for 1950s-1980s, wide range of liveries, suits the 31.

 

Also, although it's stupid to quote myself....

 

This 'obvious' range would look like a Triang or Hornby Dublo catalogue from about 1968, and it would be nice if maybe things could have moved on from over 50 years ago, but eh.  Hobby stuck in the past is stuck in the past?  🙂

[Hobby]

To get the scale off the ground and up and running it's inevitable though. The locos from thise early catalogues will probably still sell and that's what it's all about. Once things are established then they can experiment.

[flubrush]

Do it yourself. :-)

 

Drummond Caledonian 28ft coach

 

 

:-)

 

Jim.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Yes, class 31s started out as an Eastern Region loco. Living near Newcastle, I used to wonder why I never saw any, having the Triang model (a Brush type 2, that is—OO not TT, and a different version, having the headcode box, and later a class 30, strictly speaking). They didn't make it north of Doncaster on a regular basis until the mid-1970s.

 

ISTR reading that Sir Ronald Matthews, the last chairman of the LNER, later became chairman of Brush, which may have something to do with the concentration of the company’s products on the Eastern Region …

[Revolution Mike]

My strong suspicion is that if all that happens is a replication of what has happened before in TT3 or in other scales then the scale is probably already doomed. The railways have changed a lot in the last 20-30 years let alone the last 50+ years since the end of steam.  
 

Whatever happens is never going to please everybody (and personally I don’t think that you need to). 
 

I wonder if a widespread approach trying to appeal to as many as possible is any better than a targeted, coherent range? It might be initially but I suspect it might leave people frustrated quickly when compared to ranges available in N and OO. 
 

From a freight perspective one loco opens freight operations for the last 24 years ie a 66. Few geographical restrictions and lots of liveries. To a lesser extent you can say similar about an 08, 37, 47 which win on longevity (since 50s for the 08 and early 60s for 37/47). 
 

 

[andythenorth]

8 minutes ago, Revolution Mike said:

My strong suspicion is that if all that happens is a replication of what has happened before in TT3 or in other scales then the scale is probably already doomed.

 

Just going to leave this here 🙂

 

 

It is a 31/4 refurb, not the Heljan one, but it wouldn't be a massive stretch. 😛

Edited June 24, 2022 by andythenorth

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, Revolution Mike said:

I wonder if a widespread approach trying to appeal to as many as possible is any better than a targeted, coherent range? It might be initially but I suspect it might leave people frustrated quickly when compared to ranges available in N and OO.

The problem is that a "targeted, coherent range" suffers from the exact same problem. If you do a widespread scattershot approach then most people are probably going to end up with at least one loco and a few pieces of stock that appeals to them, which is easier to make do with.

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

It is a 31/4 refurb, not the Heljan one,

The first HJ 7mm 31 wasn't a 31/4. The second one was.... 😉😉😉😁😁