What locomotives and rolling stock should be produced first?

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

 

This seems perfectly logical but might not be 🙂  If crowd-funding isn't viable, then capital-at-risk RTR probably isn't viable.

 

Depends (speaking hypothetically).

 

An established company with a healthy cash flow and profits from 2nd/3rd/4th/etc runs of product (for the UK think Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, Hornby, Rapido, and Accurascale soon) can take a bit more of a risk/gamble as they have those established product lines to cover any losses (up to a point) if they guess incorrectly.

 

The smaller companies - whether they wish to remain small or just haven't had enough time to grow - can't necessarily afford to risk that capital on a market that currently numbers less than a 1,000.  And while I expect that number to grow dramatically with the first RTR loco release, it still will be small for the first say 3 years.

 

And that is the problem with crowd-funding - TT:120 simply doesn't yet have enough people to invest in a proposed product in my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Unless Hornby come in with a full range (I'm not betting either way on that), TT:120 is highly niche stuff, it will be driven by a core set of interested people who are prepared to stake funds on it, which tilts towards crowdsourcing and sales guaranteed in advance of production.

 

Peco didn't enter it based on either.

 

Heljan isn't doing the 31 based on either.

 

Creating a new market means a combination of companies willing to risk the losses and smaller companies doing the smaller items that require minimal capital.  Or someone willing to invest/pay for a product accepting the risk.

 

But, in my view, until the market reaches a certain point (and I am unsure what that point is) there won't be enough people to attempt to crowd source from.

 

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

But we will see.  Predicting the future is hazardous 😉

 

Yep, the last 20 years has made that very clear.

Edited July 13, 2022 by mdvle

[jmh67]

4 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

The BR81 made little extra effort, though, since its chassis is the same used for the BR92.65 and the V36, just needed to modify the tooling of the BR92.65 body and presto.

On the risk of getting off-topic: The V36 has a different (shorter, although similar) chassis, and the model of the 92.65, aside from being even more exotic than the 81, is a compromise - the class 81 wheels are strictly speaking too small for it. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20 ...

 

[andythenorth]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

And that is the problem with crowd-funding - TT:120 simply doesn't yet have enough people to invest in a proposed product in my opinion.

 

To clarify, and avoid a nitpick ding-ding, I'm assuming crowdfunding efforts would be for vehicles that would appeal to an existing European TT:120 market.  There are some obvious candidates for that, and they're not wildly esoteric. 😉 

 

There are market-access problems with UK businesses selling into Europe since 2020, but they might be surmountable.  I have tried to phrase that very precisely to avoid importing a particularly pointless political debate into this thread. 🙃

 

Quite happy to accept that crowd-funding might be a red herring also, but eh.

Edited July 13, 2022 by andythenorth

[NewFangledNonsense]

Apologies for posting late at the end of a long thread I haven't read in its entirety, but is there not an argument that (assuming the resources were available) the trick would be to find popular-ish prototypes that were not available in other scales (and particularly N, I would think) in order to carve out a distinctive niche?

Working around the assumption that the scenery kits being made available bias us towards GWR branchlines (and/or adjacent companies), what about the GWR 1101 0-4-0T, and the 2-4-0T Metro tanks? both made it into BR days, and have bags of charm. You could model a range of locations from London outwards.

Moving to neighbouring companies an LSWR G6 and T1, an LNWR Watford Tank, and an NLR 0-6-0T, would all be attractive locos which could appear against GWR scenery but spark off specific inspiration of their own. The Kerr Stuart Victory 0-6-0T wouldn't be out of place alongside these as a flexible industrial prototype of a similar era, and for a so-called 'celebrity' loco, you could do worse than 'Trojan' the Avonside 0-4-0ST which gives you something for the Sudrians...

Too niche? Too quirky? Too pre-group / early-grouping? I suppose so.

But I don't see why we need an 08, an autotank and an Austerity (or similar) in every damn scale.

 

[F-UnitMad]

42 minutes ago, NewFangledNonsense said:

But I don't see why we need an 08, an autotank and an Austerity (or similar) in every damn scale.

You don't have to buy them in every scale... 🤣

 

For myself & what I'd like to see, the locos are ones I have (or could get) in O, and they're available in OO & N too - in the case of a Class 31 both cheaper than the Heljan TT proposal & in OO the Accurascale model is likely to be more accurate, too*. 

It's the space needed for the idea I have that is attracting me to TT, plus the possibility of using Continental ferry chemical tankers to the same scale, if they're available. But I can see that achieving such a layout might be some years away, by which time enthusiasm could go AWOL.....😬

 

* except, of course, in the matter of wheels set to correct scale gauge. Also an attraction of British TT 1:120. 😉

Edited July 13, 2022 by F-UnitMad

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, jmh67 said:

On the risk of getting off-topic: The V36 has a different (shorter, although similar) chassis, and the model of the 92.65, aside from being even more exotic than the 81, is a compromise - the class 81 wheels are strictly speaking too small for it. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20 ...

The point is the commonality of parts, maximising how much one can do with a given set of parts... BTTB did a fair bit of that.

[luke_stevens]

On 08/07/2022 at 15:43, Hobby said:

I doubt it, Mallard or Flying Scotsman, both are more widely known outside enthusiast circles.

 

And both have international appeal. Most enthusiasts/ modellers know of the Worlds Fastest Steam Locomotive, especially the Germans who feel that the A4 pipped the 05... Flying Scotsman is also internationally famous as the first loco to have a confirmed 100mph. 

 

Luke

[jmh67]

8 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

The point is the commonality of parts, maximising how much one can do with a given set of parts... BTTB did a fair bit of that.

Of course they did, and given what Zeuke started with, they did a very decent job (and continued Zeuke's tradition in that respect, e.g. with the models of classes 56 and 86). But why did Zeuke start with a model of class 81 instead of, say, the much more numerous T 13? That's what I could not find out. I guess the 81 just looks kind of cute.

 

This ties in with my thoughts about this comment:

 

9 hours ago, NewFangledNonsense said:

... find popular-ish prototypes that were not available in other scales (and particularly N, I would think) in order to carve out a distinctive niche?
...

But I don't see why we need an 08, an autotank and an Austerity (or similar) in every damn scale.

 

Not sure about the autotank, that era was too long ago for me. But what else would one use as a shunter in the diesel era? 08s were everywhere, fit everywhere, were used for many years. Likewise the Austerity classes - from what I have read, they could be seen in many places. I believe it is very difficult to find a niche that is popular - I even think this may be a contradiction in itself. As multifaceted as the history of railways is, both in the UK and in Germany, there is always something that you stumble over almost everywhere, and that will also be what Jill and Joe Average will look for first, I expect. Be that the Black Five or the P 8, the Pacer or the railbus. Something that fits on most layouts will be the money maker.

 

I should hope the industry won't restrict itself too much to one region. Interests vary. It's difficult to model a Yorkshire outline if all you can get is rolling stock from the Southwest, and kits of models of buildings in the Home Counties. Just like (not too long ago) it was difficult to model a place in the northern lowlands of Germany if you weren't great shakes at DIY, and the industry mostly offered kits following outlines from the low mountains. But the situation has improved over time.

 

[Jeff Smith]

Something with an 0-6-0 chassis which could be used under other 3D bodies would be useful.  Compromises may have to be made regarding wheel spacing but so were (are) they with 009, 00, Triang TT etc.

[luke_stevens]

I don't think we'll go back to the "generic" chassis. I think it will go the other way with very specific chassis: GWR 57xx fitted with vacuum brakes, steam heat and ATC.

 

And if the chassis was to be available it would only be from the manufacturer as a "spare" and would cost more that the (discounted) retail price of the full loco.

 

Luke

[mdvle]

Those wanting a chassis to use for a 3D printed body may be better asking one of the existing chassis makers to scale something up/down.

[Jeff Smith]

Never having ventured smaller than 4mm standard gauge, what is the likely availability of motors, gear boxes, wheels and axles for 2.5mm scale?  I'm guessing that 3D bodies and matching chassis could be produced as in 4mm scale.

[luke_stevens]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

Never having ventured smaller than 4mm standard gauge, what is the likely availability of motors, gear boxes, wheels and axles for 2.5mm scale?  I'm guessing that 3D bodies and matching chassis could be produced as in 4mm scale.

 

At the moment there is very little directly available, at least not in the UK. No-one else seems to have our extensive interest in kit building. There are small motors and gears around. Not much in terms of driving wheels (certainly not and steam that I know of). For modern stuff there are TT120 chassis parts which could be used but we're not there yet.

 

Luke

[Hobby]

That's an interesting point, there certainly are some suitable chassis around in 12mm gauge but they come as a complete locos! I'm not sure how (for instance) Tillig work regards their manufacture whether they could be persuaded to manufacture and sell chassis separately. Though it has to be said the market would be very small!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 minutes ago, Hobby said:

That's an interesting point, there certainly are some suitable chassis around in 12mm gauge but they come as a complete locos! I'm not sure how (for instance) Tillig work regards their manufacture whether they could be persuaded to manufacture and sell chassis separately. Though it has to be said the market would be very small!

3smr are a key supplier to 3mm Scale  modelling.  They sell a wide variety of kits, but also sell r-t-r 1:120 TT locomotives including Piko chassis separate from the locomotive bodies.  On their website, look under ‘locomotives’ then ‘ready-to-run’ and scroll down towards the bottom.
 

I’ve had a very nice chat with them: apparently it also means they have some spare Continental TT bodies as a consequence.  I’d imagine the market for those is likely to be very small indeed.  Sadly they’d sold out of the locos I was interested in.

[Hobby]

Only three diesel/electric chassis, though, Keith, I was thinking more about steam loco chassis!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

12 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Only three diesel/electric chassis, though, Keith, I was thinking more about steam loco chassis!

 

My bad - good point.

[britishcolumbian]

6 hours ago, Hobby said:

I'm not sure how (for instance) Tillig work regards their manufacture whether they could be persuaded to manufacture and sell chassis separately

Tillig are pretty much the opposite of amenable to that.

[luke_stevens]

More progress...

 

1) A Roco sliding door van which is very close to a BR VGA.

 

2) With primed resin signal box. I've thoroughly cleaned the wax medium and it now needs rubbing down and re-priming. And yes I've already broken the support for the steps. But I have the broken part which will be reattacked later.

 

3) General overview. The signal box is currently sitting on a double thickness of foam board. It will be inset and the top surface of the second piece of foam will be removed to give a formable foam structure...

Edited July 15, 2022 by luke_stevens

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, luke_stevens said:

Roco sliding door van which is very close to a BR VGA.

Be interesting to see it next to a British diesel (eventually!). That looks like a full-EU loading gauge version, the Ferry ones that came to the UK (& might pass muster as UK stock) were rather smaller. I found that out when I tried British HO, with Roco wagons.

[luke_stevens]

41 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Be interesting to see it next to a British diesel (eventually!). That looks like a full-EU loading gauge version, the Ferry ones that came to the UK (& might pass muster as UK stock) were rather smaller. I found that out when I tried British HO, with Roco wagons.

 

It is a stand in until something better turns up. The container flat pair I have is the same: something for the moment...

 

Luke

[Ravenser]

On 13/07/2022 at 16:50, mdvle said:

Speaking generically (with no knowledge of Revolution or anyone else's plans) I think it is a bit early in TT:120 for anyone to be considering a crowd funded (of whatever variety) product - I don't think there are sufficient people willing at this point to put up money in TT:120.

 

While the possibility of cross-Channel sales can potentially help make a few models more viable that could potentially be offset by the various issues that now must be faced by the seller (and buyer) in cross-Channel selling - and this will impact the viability of cross-Channel crowd funding as well.

 

So for the first several years my guess is that TT:120 will be supported by traditional RTR methods (the company fronts all the development costs and takes the risks) and by smaller cottage operations.

 

This is to overthink things. Trade between Britain and countries outside the EU has been going on for many years. Think the USA or Australia.

 

Besides the models would almost certainly be made in a Chinese factory . And it is most unlikely that a batch of TT-120 wagons is going to fill up a 20' container. This is LCL cargo in someone's groupage box.

 

Instead of putting the whole lot in someone's Southampton or Felixstowe box , the consolidator splits the cartons at their warehouse in Shenzhen - X cartons / so many cubic metres into a UK consol box , consigned to RevolutioN, and Y cartons /not so many CBM into a Hamburg consol box consigned to a friendly party somewhere in Germany. That friendly party then distributes them into the trade.

 

Logically this implies a deal with some specialist niche RTR brand on the Continent active in TT . They commit to take a slice of the production run and sell it in Central Europe on their own account.

 

It takes time for such a relationship to be put in place, but it's hardly rocket science

[andythenorth]

59 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It takes time for such a relationship to be put in place, but it's hardly rocket science

 

Thanks, that's illuminating. 

 

I wondered how Accurascale had been doing it with the EU shipping programme, possibly be as you've described: https://accurascale.eu/ 

[Ravenser]

17 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

Thanks, that's illuminating. 

 

I wondered how Accurascale had been doing it with the EU shipping programme, possibly be as you've described: https://accurascale.eu/ 

Accurascale have a base in the Irish Republic. They only need a UK arrangement

[McC]

19 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Accurascale have a base in the Irish Republic. They only need a UK arrangement

Accurascale has two entities. 
 

one limited company which is English and has a distribution center in Birmingham. 
 

one limited company ehich is Irish and with a distribution center in Dublin

 

Thus we can ship stock for both our brands to the UK, and EU from a ‘local’ no import or tax or duty issues point of view. 
 

in short we do all the messy stuff so the customer gets a ‘local’ delivery.