What locomotives and rolling stock should be produced first?

[NCB]

On 14/07/2022 at 21:28, Jeff Smith said:

Never having ventured smaller than 4mm standard gauge, what is the likely availability of motors, gear boxes, wheels and axles for 2.5mm scale?  I'm guessing that 3D bodies and matching chassis could be produced as in 4mm scale.

Here's a Cambrian Albion in 3mm scale:

 

... and here's the chassis:

 

Modified High Level gearbox, Tramfabriek 8x16 coreless motor, 3mm Society fine scale wheels. Runs pretty well. Here's a similar Cambrian Seaham:

 

Motors aren't a problem these days, gearboxes wouldn't be except gear suppliers to people such as High Level and Branchlines seem to be disappearing, which is why the 3mm Society is looking at sourcing its own. For wheels the 3mm Society has loads; however, getting the correct diameter and number of spokes for 2.5mm is a different matter.

 

I think TT-120 will be for those who want (hopefully) high  quality  off the shelf ready to run models and 3mm for those who want to use the resources available to build their own.

 

Nigel

[luke_stevens]

49 minutes ago, NCB said:

 

I think TT-120 will be for those who want (hopefully) high  quality  off the shelf ready to run models and 3mm for those who want to use the resources available to build their own.

 

 

I would think that is exactly where things are going. And, with some overlap, I would suggest TT120 is more diesel/electric era,  with TT3 being more steam era.

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

Signal box primed with AK Interactive primer (https://ak-interactive.com/product/fine-resin-primer-spray/), an amazing primer for resin! Then vigorously wet sanded with a fine grit sanding stick, ready for another primer coat.

 

Top card layer removed and sanded to give undulations and then base coat painted, though this may not last :)

 

Luke

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by luke_stevens

[andythenorth]

On 15/07/2022 at 20:39, McC said:

Thus we can ship stock for both our brands to the UK, and EU from a ‘local’ no import or tax or duty issues point of view. 

 

Do you ever have to re-balance stock between UK/EU distribution centres?  E.g. to fulfil orders that don't match the expected spread?

 

Presumably that incurs tax / paperwork if you do?

 

Asking for a friend 😛

 

I do run a business that trades internationally UK / Asia Pacific / EU / North America, but all services, so I'm wet behind the ears when it comes to physical goods.  We don't pay import duties etc on any of what we sell, just local taxes like GST or state sales tax, and we carry the overhead of incorporated entities, insurances etc in certain territories. 💰

 

Trying to figure out how it would work practically for a TT:120 venture producing, e.g. ferry wagons, accessories etc, sold into both UK and EU 🚂

Edited July 16, 2022 by andythenorth

[McC]

Yes if we move stock in either direction it’s essentialy an export/import with related costs, paperwork and vat implications / payments. 
 

generally we’ll try to ‘right size’ based on preorders and our own intel. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by McC

[NCB]

17 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

I would think that is exactly where things are going. And, with some overlap, I would suggest TT120 is more diesel/electric era,  with TT3 being more steam era.

 

Luke

You may be right. i'll be interested to know how it's proposed to deal with cramped steam dimensions when using presumably overscale TT-120 wheels

[luke_stevens]

On 15/07/2022 at 17:23, F-UnitMad said:

Be interesting to see it next to a British diesel (eventually!). That looks like a full-EU loading gauge version, the Ferry ones that came to the UK (& might pass muster as UK stock) were rather smaller. I found that out when I tried British HO, with Roco wagons.

 

Best I could do before anything arrives :) Drawing scaled as best I can. The buffers line up so I must be vaguely close ...

The pseudo-VGA is clearly taller than the Western, but would it be ok as a stand in?

 

(Ok, so I know that Westerns and VGA's didn't live on the railway at the same time but it was te best drawing I could find!)

 

Luke

 

[maridunian]

18 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

Best I could do before anything arrives :) Drawing scaled as best I can. The buffers line up so I must be vaguely close ...

The pseudo-VGA is clearly taller than the Western, but would it be ok as a stand in?

 

(Ok, so I know that Westerns and VGA's didn't live on the railway at the same time but it was te best drawing I could find!)

 

Luke

 

 

Certainly looks the part. VGA overall height is 3874mm (12' 8"). A Western's overall height is 3960mm (12' 11.75").

 

Does the model's central roof section come off? Between sanding away the roof ribbing and thinning the central roof section, you might be able to lose 1-2mm of height.

 

Mike

 

 

[maridunian]

On 15/07/2022 at 09:53, Hobby said:

Only three diesel/electric chassis, though, Keith, I was thinking more about steam loco chassis!

 

For something cheap enough to hack about, Zeuke/Berliner Bahn (the predecessors of Tillig) locos pop up on eBay and European dealers from time-to-time.

 

Here's their historical range of steam engines. 

 

Mike

[Hobby]

I've been using them for the past 40 years or so, Mike! Good runners as well!! But the older steam models would be quite difficult to fit, especially the steam locos, even if they resembled the correct wheelbase. The newer Tillig ones might, but they are a lot more pricey for an experiment!

[luke_stevens]

2 hours ago, maridunian said:

 

Certainly looks the part. VGA overall height is 3874mm (12' 8"). A Western's overall height is 3960mm (12' 11.75").

 

Does the model's central roof section come off? Between sanding away the roof ribbing and thinning the central roof section, you might be able to lose 1-2mm of height.

 

Mike

 

 

 

I'll do a breakdown photo when home. The chassis and ends are one mounding, the aluminium doors are one moulding where the central roof selection plugs in. Whether I do anything to it...

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

3 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

I'll do a breakdown photo when home. The chassis and ends are one mounding, the aluminium doors are one moulding where the central roof selection plugs in. Whether I do anything to it...

 

Luke

 

As promised. And no the roof doesn't like being removed form the body shell! I lost most of the clips. At least the end clips remained. 

 

By the time I convert the body and ends it would probably not be worth it. I'll wait for a kit or something in the future.

 

But I might still repaint into BR inspired livery...

 

Luke

 

[andythenorth]

On 15/07/2022 at 08:55, Keith Addenbrooke said:

3smr are a key supplier to 3mm Scale  modelling.  They sell a wide variety of kits, but also sell r-t-r 1:120 TT locomotives....

 

Thanks for the tip, I've ordered a Roco starter set (to get my feet wet). 😉

[Jeff Smith]

Looking at the website it is not clear that the Roco and Piko items are TT120.

[eldomtom2]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Looking at the website it is not clear that the Roco and Piko items are TT120.

What scale are you suggesting they are?

[andythenorth]

The 3smr website is perhaps not up to current expectations, but Malcom at 3smr has been very helpful by email. 

 

Malcolm indicates that the website stock list is not up to date, but was able to give me a list of available stock and prices.

 

And yes, the Roco, Tillig stuff is TT:120.   Whilst it's laudable to not make assumptions, this is a specialist 3mm / TT:120 retailer. 🙃

 

Please don't you lot snaffle all the Euro stock, if I like this starter set, I want some more 😛

Edited July 22, 2022 by andythenorth

[britishcolumbian]

21 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Looking at the website it is not clear that the Roco and Piko items are TT120.

Since TT is 1:120 everywhere outside the UK, Roco and Piko TT models are all inch to ten foot scale.

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

What scale are you suggesting they are?

Since the website is predominately TT3, it would be sensible to identify the continental RTR as TT120.....

[Keith Addenbrooke]

8 hours ago, andythenorth said:

The 3smr website is perhaps not up to current expectations, but Malcom at 3smr has been very helpful by email. 

 

Malcolm indicates that the website stock list is not up to date, but was able to give me a list of available stock and prices.

 

And yes, the Roco, Tillig stuff is TT:120.   Whilst it's laudable to not make assumptions, this is a specialist 3mm / TT:120 retailer. 🙃

 

Please don't you lot snaffle all the Euro stock, if I like this starter set, I want some more 😛

I also found Malcolm very helpful on the phone: with smaller retailers it’s always worth checking before ordering (it’s often worth checking with some larger retailers too, of course).  Unfortunately he’d sold out of the items I was interested in, but I’d happily order from them in the future.

 

…and I’ll bet you do like the starter set when it comes.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Hobby]

15 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Since the website is predominately TT3, it would be sensible to identify the continental RTR as TT...

 

Corrected it for you... ;)

[Forward!]

A thought does just occur to me. N gauge and 00 gauge emerged as compromise scale/gauge combinations to allow the fitting of practical mechanisms into models representing smaller UK loading gauges. A true scale/gauge is not a problem for modern RTR, but a lot of people on here are suggesting (if not outright hoping) that UK makers/cottage manufacturers could utilise proprietary European TT gauge mechanisms to power UK-outline models. But surely we'd be in the same position as we were back in the mid 20th century? It may be a silly example, but I'm guessing that if you actually tried to just plonk a true-scale Warship bodyshell onto a TT-scale Piko V200 mechanism you'd have exactly the same problem Swindon had making the real thing fit!

 

Will

 

[spamcan61]

19 minutes ago, Forward! said:

A true scale/gauge is not a problem for modern RTR, 

 

I'd suggest that's not necessarily a good assumption for steam locos with outside valve gear covered by splashers.

[Hobby]

Oh dear here we go again...

 

The realistic amongst us have accepted long ago that there will be some compromises, but other than to finescale modellers, it won't matter as it won't be noticeable from normal viewing distances.

 

Can we have the patience to wait until they produce something and then discuss the merits of it rather than have this totally pointless discussion every few pages?!!!

Edited July 27, 2022 by Hobby
Spelling

[andythenorth]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

The realistic amongst us have accepted long ago that there will be some compromises, but other than to finescale modellers, it won't matter as it won't be noticeable from normal viewing distances.

 

It's the thickness of the glazing that kills me.  I don't know anything about real locomotive windscreens, but I just can't believe that they're accurately scaled in contemporary RTR. 

 

See also: the vac and air pipes are usually moulded solid pieces, not actual hollow pipes.

[Ravenser]

On 27/07/2022 at 15:56, Forward! said:

A thought does just occur to me. N gauge and 00 gauge emerged as compromise scale/gauge combinations to allow the fitting of practical mechanisms into models representing smaller UK loading gauges. A true scale/gauge is not a problem for modern RTR, but a lot of people on here are suggesting (if not outright hoping) that UK makers/cottage manufacturers could utilise proprietary European TT gauge mechanisms to power UK-outline models. But surely we'd be in the same position as we were back in the mid 20th century? It may be a silly example, but I'm guessing that if you actually tried to just plonk a true-scale Warship bodyshell onto a TT-scale Piko V200 mechanism you'd have exactly the same problem Swindon had making the real thing fit!

 

Will

 

 

There may be  cases where that works. But more promising to my m ind is the concept of using a RTR British outline TT-120 mechanism to power other British outline TT-120 bodyshells.

 

Thus it has been noted that a GWR 57xx 0-6-0T has the same wheelbase as a GWR 2251 0-6-0. No doubt other Pannier tanks share the wheelbase.

 

Similarly any ex MR 0-6-0'/0-6-0T has the same wheelbase as any other 0-6-0'/0-6-0T. Do one , and someone can produce 3D printed bodyshells for several similar classes

 

Again , any Bo-Bo with an 8'6" wheelbase opens up anything else with an 8'6" wheelbase. A couple of decades ago there was a lot of activity using the innards of Bachmann Rats to power various other things with 8'6" wheelbase in 4mm

 

There seems to be an undercurrent that what will make TT-120 a success in Britain is the potential for it to be some  kind of lean-to annex tacked onto the side of Continental railway modelling. I think that feeling is seriously misdirected - TT-120 in Britain will have to stand on its own two feet if it is to succeed