Queen of Scots Pullman 1956/7 (or so)

[rowanj]

I am assembling a QoS primarilly using the Hornby all-steel K type Pullmans. This has been complicated by the fact they are out of production, as is the best reference book by Anthony Ford. The SEMG Coupe News downloads are excellent, Although I have found a couple of threads, they have;nt answered all my questions, and the photo loss means the consists assembled by the likes of Great Northern or Tony Wright cant be viewed. I have 6 of the cars I need, but am struggling to find the pair of ist Class parlour Cars to complete the rake.

My unresolved queries are..

1-can anyone identify a suitable matchwood (i,e unplated) Parlour first to use -there are a couple of these around secondhand, but which names are appropriate (if any)?

2-I think I need to replace the later Pullman Crest on the "Grey Roof"  cars if I want to represent them in my chosen period... is this correct?

3- The change of numbering from 3rd to 2nd Class was in 1956. Can anyone point me at suitable transfers to make this change? I can;t see them on Fox or Modelmaster,

No doubt I;ll think of something else as the work progresses

John

[D5158]

Hi John,

 

An eight car formation would imply the QOS formation running north of Leeds to Glasgow and return.  My research shows the consist only contained one 1st Parlour.  Sometimes it ran as a seven car formation, possibly in the winter.  I will have to check which car was dropped.  Likely a Second Parlour or Second Kitchen.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[rowanj]

Thanks Alan. I have seen lists of formations with 3 Firsts and only 1 Third class Kitchen at the Up end. I can't believe how hard it has been to get info on the consist of this train. 

As you say, I model the train just North of Newcastle, so as an 8 car set.

John

[45568]

Hi John,

              This link to Railtec Transfers may be of use,

https://www.railtec-models.com/catalog.php?search_str=pullman

Of note is 9988 Custom Pullman name in 4mm. Steve will probably be able to supply crests as well if you ask him as he probably has the artwork. I have used the Brighton Belle transfers and can vouch for their accuracy and ease of use.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, 45568 said:

Steve will probably be able to supply crests as well if you ask him

@railtec-modelson here

[Andrew Young]

@rowanj have you tried contacting the Pullman Society? My Dad is editor of their magazine and has a model of Harrogate station in the fifties / sixties in his loft. For his layout he’s researched and then assembled accurate rakes for both the QoS and Yorkshire Pullman services. 
 

Andrew

[rowanj]

Thanks for the posts so far. This is the info I'm using for the consists, taken from the relevant WTT's. The 1960 one will, I imagine, cover the Bachmann models, rather than my 1928 Hornby all-steels (other than the Second Brakes).

Edit I think, though built in 1960, they entered service in 1961?

1957 Winter Down (1956 the same other than where noted)

Second Parlour,

 First Kitchen (to Leeds)

 Secomd  Brake 

Second Kitchen

Second Parlour (SO) Note 1956 Winter( FSO)

First Parlour

First Kitchen

First Kitchen

Second Parlour

Second Brake

 

1960 Summer Down

    2nd brake

    2nd kitchen

    1st parlour(FX)

2nd Parlour (FO)

    1st parlour

    1st kitchen

    2nd parlour

    2nd kitchen

    2nd brake

Edited August 14, 2022 by rowanj

[rowanj]

I'm a fan of Railtec, and Steve produced some customised NCB transfers for me during the first Lockdown. I couldnt see the Pullman ones I might need on his list, and his Contact still isnt working. But he will be a port of call.

John

Edited August 14, 2022 by rowanj

[rowanj]

For info, and courtesy of D5158 above (thanks, Alan). Here are some appropriate consists for the Q os S. I also heard from Steve at Railtec, so thanks for that, too. All i am left with is a suitable nomination for a matchboard Parlour First, please.

 

Just for info, i was advised that Loraine was not approriate for the ER, so i renamed my car (to Thelma). It does appear it was still around until 1955 or so, and is one of the Hornby models one can still pick up on the well known auction site.

 

 

The E/NE had 52 Pullman cars allocated to the region in the summer of 1956.  (37 rostered and 15 spares.

 

The consist of both Q of S trains was the same.

1 @ 1st Class Kitchen

1 @ 1st Class Parlour

2 @ 3rd Class Kitchens

2 @ 3rd Class Parlours

2 @ 3rd Class Brake.

 

The trains were generally made up of All Steel ‘K-Type’ cars (1928-31) although you could get Wooden Bodied steel underframed (1923-27) ‘K-Type’ cars.

 

April 1948

Cars: 77, 70, 75, Juana, Ione, 83, 81, 79, Agatha, 67 (No. 1 train).

Cars: 78, 71, 76, Sheila, Evadne, 66, 68, 80, Agatha, 67 (No. 2 train).

 

April 1950

Cars: 80, 67, 76, Ursula, Evadne, Rosamund, 75 , 161.

 

August 1951

Cars: 65, 72, 83, Loraine, Lucille, 64, 107,  161.

 

June 1954

Cars: 79, 69, Juana, Nilar, Evadne, 83, 105.

 

November 1954

Cars: 65, 68, 76, Iolanthe, Zena, Joan, 83, 80.

 

June 1955

Cars: 77, 69, 73, Nilar, Sheila, Loraine, 83, 161.

 

February 1957

Cars: 78, 68, Juana, Belinda, Cynthia, 83, 79.

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Have you looked on the Pullman pages on the SREMG website? Loads of information and not just relevant to the SR.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/index.shtml

 

 

 

Jason

[rowanj]

12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Have you looked on the Pullman pages on the SREMG website? Loads of information and not just relevant to the SR.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/index.shtml

 

 

 

Jason

I am wading my way through the various files,,, a real goldmine of information. Thanks for posting. I;m down to "only" needing a suitable Parlour First for a 1856 or ;57 Winter rake. Talk about Hen;s teeth....

[rowanj]

A few photos of what would represent an accurate QoS on the Winter Timetables from about 1955 to 1957, This is the Down train, North from Leeds Central, all are Hornby allsteel K -type with lights.

3rd Parlour Brake

2nd/3rd Parlour

 2 x First Kitchen, Both originally "Loraine" 

Missing First Parlour - to be filled by Type K ONYX, earlier plated car, info c/o Great Northern )thanks, Gilbert)

 

2nd/3rd Parlour and Kitchen.

3rd Parlour Brake

 

[rowanj]

And an earlier K Type Parlour Brake. I have a photo of the Up  train leaving Harrogate in 1956 with a car of this type behind the loco.

 

As can be seen, there are still things to do. Some of the numbers are duplicates, and I need to think how to deal with the roof colour mismatch( assuming I do). the hunt for a super-detailed all-steel parlour First goes on.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by rowanj

[rowanj]

Massive thanks to all who helped me get an authentic Queen of Scots rake. I managed to get a model of a Parlour First, at last,  and here she is on the FO/SO with the additional Parlour 2nd. I'm assuming Agatha is just out of shops and am leaving the roof white, just for a contrast., as advised by D5158 (Alan).

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by rowanj

[john new]

My memories of spotting at Leeds Central circa 1960 can't help you re the coach types; however, my memory is that the down and  up QoS crossed near Bramhope Tunnel (another spotting place) with the down, northbound, having left Leeds first. Again a memory but it is that a couple of coaches were pulled off the rear of  the down train and then shunted onto the rear of the up in the reversals at L Central, thus becoming the lead two when it left heading south again after reversal. 

[SC55015]

On 14/08/2022 at 01:21, rowanj said:

Thanks for the posts so far. This is the info I'm using for the consists, taken from the relevant WTT's. The 1960 one will, I imagine, cover the Bachmann models, rather than my 1928 Hornby all-steels (other than the Second Brakes).

Edit I think, though built in 1960, they entered service in 1961?

 

This mention is from the April 14, 1961 edition of The Railway Gazette, suggesting Spring 1961.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 14/08/2022 at 09:21, rowanj said:

The 1960 one will, I imagine, cover the Bachmann models, rather than my 1928 Hornby all-steels (other than the Second Brakes).

Edit I think, though built in 1960, they entered service in 1961?

The new cars didn't enter service 'en bloc' judging from photographs taken at the time. If I were to guess based on the new car's transition in roof shade from whitish to solidly grey, the new cars went into service in pairs, gradually displacing the K type cars until only the end of formation K type brakes were left. What I don't know is over how long a time period this happened.

[mark54]

9 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The new cars didn't enter service 'en bloc' judging from photographs taken at the time. If I were to guess based on the new car's transition in roof shade from whitish to solidly grey, the new cars went into service in pairs, gradually displacing the K type cars until only the end of formation K type brakes were left. What I don't know is over how long a time period this happened.

There is a photo taken at Greenwood of an empty stock train headed by a V2 on the Up Slow. I don't have copyright so won't post here. Behind the V2 are 7 brand new Mk1 Pullmans with white roofs - 3 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First, 1 Kitchen Second and 2 Parlour Seconds, With 2 1928 Brake Seconds, this would exactly allow the makeup of the London based set of the 1961 Queen of Scots.

 

Substitutions by 1928 Pullmans were very common in the early to mid-60s. Besides the 12 Brake Seconds that worked with the 44 Mk1 cars, there were also 4 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First and 1 Parlour Second which were retained as spares for ECML Pullman services.