Private compounds in goods yards - did they exist?

[DLT]

Or swap the siding over, have the goods siding at the front, and the private siding at the rear.  Both sidings would then be longer (a big advantage, short sidings on the layout are a pain)

[DLT]

Gated siding

[33C]

Shoeburyness M.O.D. sidings are gated from the main yard across the road adjacent to the station. Worth a look?

[Stubby47]

15 minutes ago, DLT said:

Or swap the siding over, have the goods siding at the front, and the private siding at the rear.  Both sidings would then be longer (a big advantage, short sidings on the layout are a pain)

 

This layout is not so much about the railway operation, but the accessory demonstration & operation.

 

Following on from the Modulus layout I demo'd at the SWAG Party earlier this year, this will be a fully scenic'd layout, also showing the Modulus system's capabilities, but in a more realistic (read model railway) setting.

 

So whilst I didn't want a completely non-sensical idea, (such as Richard T pointed out), I also am not too hung up on the finer aspects of prototypical operation.  If I can show a reason for a gated area (the gate being the important item as it will move), then that will suffice.  

Other animated aspects will be servo operated points and tension lock uncouplers, a working level crossing, and operating semaphore signals.  And maybe some other bits.

There will also be a duplicated set of servos and the accessories they operate on demonstration / explanation panels in front of the layout.

 

This layout should make its debut at Warley this November, on Stand A17.

 

One and all, I thank you for your input.

[DLT]

I still think that two separate sidings will give you much more.  The sidings you have are so short that you can't do much with them; you're not going to be able to shunt more than one wagon into the private siding at a time.

My suggestion is something like this,  with the private siding either ending on the visible section, or disappearing in to the fiddle yard.

Please excuse the roughness of the sketch...

[Stubby47]

Thanks Dave. You're correct, the private siding will only be for one wagon, with just enough for two and a short loco between the toe of the point and the space for a single wagon at the shed.

 

Even exchanging a single wagon from a train will be up to 10 separate movements, showing the use of servos to change points and uncouple wagons.  Having longer sidings or trains will not necessarily add to this.

 

As an 8ft long, single board, single-operator layout, there is also a limit to train lengths due to the sector plate ( also servo driven and electronically monitored ).

[Gilbert]

One further option - which may not suit your overall plan on this layout but can add operational interest - is to have the gated siding disappearing into the FY area. I'm creatig a "generic" gated siding on my (very compact) S&D branch which will be defined by the traffic using it.....front left....

Chris H

Edited August 17, 2022 by Gilbert

[phil_sutters]

It depends on whether you can call Highbridge Wharf a goods yard, but Bland's timber yard, the Eclipse Fuel Factory* and the COOP coal depot* all appear to have had gates at the entrances to their sites within the the S&DJR's wharf. This is based purely on boundary markings shown on maps, with continuous lines across the tracks into the sites. The available aerial views are too indistinct generally, but the coal yard seems to have a fairly narrow entrance and the fuel factory siding enters between buildings.

*At different times these facilities were owned by other commercial companies.

Edited August 17, 2022 by phil_sutters

[fulton]

Not the UK, but when modelling a yard in Florida, there was fenced off area with only rail access, most odd, discovered it was used to store tank cars of pesticides, awaiting delivery to a distributor.

[kevinlms]

19 hours ago, C126 said:

The idea of 'the gated siding' makes me think of 'sinister traffics', so what about a Cold War building for buffer stocks of foods inside the (larger area of) fencing?  A Cold Store, Nissan huts for dry goods on pallets, etc.?  Loughborough had a W.W.ii. Cold Store converted to an R.S.G. and was fenced off awaiting the 'balloon going up'.  But this would generate rail-borne deliveries only a few days before the apocalypse, mind you.

 

 

Or the secret store of steam locomotives! How much more sinister?

[Wickham Green too]

But isn't the 'Strategic Reserve' bricked up in a tunnel somewhere ??!?

[kevinlms]

Just now, Wickham Green too said:

But isn't the 'Strategic Reserve' bricked up in a tunnel somewhere ??!?

They moved it, because the secret leaked. Now the government can truthfully deny that there is a tunnel full of steam locomotives, fully maintained and ready to go!

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

 

So whilst I didn't want a completely non-sensical idea, (such as Richard T pointed out), I also am not too hung up on the finer aspects of prototypical operation.  If I can show a reason for a gated area (the gate being the important item as it will move), then that will suffice.  

 

Does it need to move at all?

• Whilst exchange sidings, private sidings, collieries etc often had fences and gates which could enclose the private space, my impression in the 1950s-80s was that in many places nobody bothered to shut these gates and they would fall into disrepair.  They were a minor nuisance to the staff who had to go and open them, so why create work for yourself. 
• Not a lot of point if the fence has collapsed anyway.
• Probably different for military establishments, high-value goods, and pre-WW1, and perhaps used more for Health & Safety rather than security reasons in the modern era.
• Whose job was it anyway?  - the private owner, as part of his site security, or the railway company, as part of the requirement to fence off the railway from trespassers/stray cattle?

Are there frequent vehicle movements through the gate?  When does it need to move? 

• open for the passage of the train, close immediately after? 
• open at start of factory shift/first train of day, close at end of shift  ?

 

 

[Stubby47]

Michael,

 

Yes, it has to move, as that is part of the demonstration of the new SMS Modulus system 😎. 

 

As I've said, the railway operation is very much secondary to the accessory operation for this layout - unconventional, perhaps, but that's it's purpose.

 

I am aiming to operate the gate in conjunction with the point, so if the line is set to the private siding, the gate will open, and vice versa.

 

I do appreciate your input, and for 99% of layouts you would be absolutely correct.

[Wickham Green too]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Does it need to move at all? ...

Maybe the gate doesn't - but the demonstration of servo-operated staff TRYING to get it to move or a servo-operated slow-motion collapsing perimeter fence might be worthwhile !!?!

[Stubby47]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Maybe the gate doesn't - but the demonstration of servo-operated staff TRYING to get it to move or a servo-operated slow-motion collapsing perimeter fence might be worthwhile !!?!

 

Yep, those are options...

[Pacific231G]

Not strictly relevant but the LBNGR has gates across its main line in Leighton Buzzard for security and they were opened by the crew of the first train and closed by those on the last train of the day so I'd normally expect a gated siding receiving regular wagons to operate the same way.

 

Medstead & Four Marks station on the Watercress line had a private siding that ran over the station forecourt to William Ivey's store shed on his property. That was in fact the original raison d'etre for the station though a small goods yard was later added. ISTR when I first saw it in the 1970s that the building it ran to was a small agricultural machinery company with the disused track entering the building and I vaguely remember a gate. Customers' premises in station yards such as mills, silos and grain merchants with their own siding were pretty common- one thinks immediately of the kickback siding from the goods siding at Ashburton - but tended not to have separate gates as presumably the fenced and gated railway land was considered to offer sufficient security.  I can't remember whether the gasworks siding at Wantage (accessed through an engine shed!) was actually gated.

A suitable private siding for a mill or something in front of the main line can provide a useful alternative to a tunnel or road bridge as a scenic break for the station entrance with a short track into the fiddle yard area allowing empty and full wagons to be swapped.

I think these two photos Giles Barnabe's excellent St. Emilie layout from about 2004 illustrate the principle.  The fiddle yard was a cassette based one (for both standard and metre gauge) so a short cassette could be plugged into the end of the private siding serving a grain and fertiliser merchant to allow more than a couple of wagons to use it.

I'm afraid my image of the secondary fiddle yard entrance i is a bit out of focus but the principle should be clear enough.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

Not absolutely relevant - because Stu has made clear why he needs a gate - but the situation was relatively simple.  Private sidings were normally provided with a gate because they were not on railway land - hence the line crossed the boundary hence it needed a gate.  They should not be confused with sidings which served loading/discharge for a sole trader but were not a private siding in the legal sense of the term although they might still be covered by a Siding Agreement.

[KingEdwardII]

Cheddar had:

- a gated siding for Bristol Water Works pumping station

- an ungated private siding for a single company, alongside a loading dock

- an ungated siding for a quarry stone loading point, again provided for a single company

 

Meanwhile Wells, on the same branch line, had a rather large gated set of sidings for a Ministry of Food cold store built alongside the goods yard during WWII.

 

Yours, Mike.

[JimC]

I I understand your requirements correctly I suggest modifying the compound so that its larger and not bounded on all sides by railway land like this:

 

The fence alongside the railway should most likely follow the line as a normal lineside fence rather than be straight.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by JimC

[Stubby47]

18 minutes ago, JimC said:

I I understand your requirements correctly I suggest modifying the compound so that its larger and not bounded on all sides by railway land like this:

 

The fence alongside the railway should most likely follow the line as a normal lineside fence rather than be straight.

 

 

That brown line was a drawn as a contour, but would make an excellent fence line too.

 

Many thanks!

[2E Sub Shed]

If the siding crossed a road as well you could have two gates.  Bridge Street Goods Yard in Northampton had connections to 2 private sidings which exited the goods yard and crossed a public right of way , one to a Timber Yard and the other a foundry. 

[tomparryharry]

Off the top of my head.

 

Llantwit Fardre had a gated entrance, up until 1963. The goods yard was one side, and Bryn Colliery was the other, bisected by the main (single) line.

 

Worcester, perhaps?

 

 

[clachnaharry]

The coal merchant in Inverurie in Aberdeenshire had a fenced compound within the station goods yard, which had a gated siding with room for only a couple of 16 ton mineral wagons. This continued in use until the early 1980s. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by clachnaharry

[Jonathan W]

On 16/08/2022 at 13:43, Will Crompton said:

If you wanted to go for a railblue/nuclear flask combo Southminster provides inspiration.

 

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5639427

 

The linked photo (credited to Walter Dendy), dated 1978, shows the flask gantry behind the goods shed. Intriguingly the yard seems to show non nuclear wagons present so maybe it was still in use for other traffic as well. The line through the shed appears in use (though I assume the shed itself wasn't) so that makes a nice 'prototype for everything scenario.'

'Diesels in the Capital' by Brian Beer has a wonderful picture from 1985 taken from a bit closer to the good shed. In this one can just see a gate protecting the gantry siding. also there is a Gronk in front of the shed and a 116 DMU arriving past a rather nice signal box.

Yes sand hopper trains were also using the yard until 1979 as there was a gravel / sand quarry and conveyor next to the tracks - there is a picture on Flickr showing a class 47 shunting these wagons through the goods shed at this time. This quarry is now fishing lakes I think