British Railways Form One - Did it actually exist?

[John M Upton]

On the railways, particularly among old BR era crew, much is mentioned in hushed tones of the dreaded 'Form One' which basically refers to a member of British Railways staff getting the sack for doing something extremely stupid, often such incidents which have become the stuff of legend, often recalled over real ale with such reminiscences as 'so and so got a Form One' and even today still gets referred to when someone makes a serious error as 'That's a Form One for him then'.

 

The question is, was there actually a physical Form One at one time issued to offenders who were basically getting the sack?  If so, what did it look like and when did they officially cease to be issued?

Edited August 25, 2022 by John M Upton

[micknich2003]

Yes, indeed, and like most railwaymen, in my thirty five years I earned more then one

[Natalie]

There was a form 1 or No 1 as we knew them but it was not for sacking people with. It was a formal charge sheet with the room for you to answer. You would then be notified of when, where and by whom the subsequent meeting would take place. If found guilty of said charge, the decision and any punishment which could be loss of travel facilities, suspension, warnings etc you would be informed officially by means of a Form 2. I had three form 1s in my time (and all had a form 2 afterwards...)

 

In my time they were roughly the size of a landscape A4 folded in half. The rear page was detachable and it was here that you put your reply. You got issued with them at the end of a shift so you always got worried if a yellow van turned up about 10 minutes before the end. They had to be signed for too if i recall correctly. Timewise I had mine between 1986 and 1990.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Natalie

[Mark Saunders]

It is a disciplinary form and procedure to which you could reply on the form or request a hearing with or without representation union or otherwise. The decision was the form two!

 

The real one to be be feared was a clause nine dismissal as that was on the spot and your appeal was off the street

[bécasse]

IIRC the wording on "Form 1" started "Please explain ...................." so it was seeking the recipient's explanation for the incident or occurrence that was then detailed on the form. Many, perhaps even the majority, went no further than a simple acceptance of that explanation. 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by bécasse

[Nearholmer]

So out of date am I, that it is news to me that they don’t still exist.

 

I never got one, but a colleague of mine did, for the strange offence of moving a wardrobe between houses using a company Landrover. The Chief was out shopping with his wife, and spotted the Landrover going down the high street with the wardrobe sticking out of the back!

[Wheatley]

I got one for an unauthorised short notice duty swap, it was authorised and our defence that the Duty DI's inability to record things in his diary properly  wasn't our problem was accepted.

 

I also later handed them out for getting  two in a section and for failing to report for duty on more than one occasion without phoning in. From memory the person handing it out could not be the person who caught whoever it was doing/not doing whatever it was, and the manager taking the disciplinary hearing could not have been involved at either preceding stage. Quite a few conversations were stopped short with "Don't tell me any more, I'll be taking the appeal". They were always delivered personally at the end of a shift, the reason given to me being that one of the factors in one or other of the Morpeth derailments was distraction having picked up a Form 1 from a pigeon hole on booking on. 

 

If there was a reasonable explanation the Form 2 came back with "No further action" but rarely an apology, even when it was admin or management cock up. 

 

Clause 9s were usually for gross misconduct or dereliction of duty - drunk, fighting, punching passengers, driving units around Sheffield Station at 3am instead of cleaning them, getting caught with a pornographic photoshoot going on in your signalbox, playing football on the island platform at Swinton SY instead of emptying the bins ("Poster frames for goal posts"), etc. Even then it was not unknown to be reintated on appeal, although usually with a downgrade or substantial unpaid suspension. 

[BR traction instructor]

I got a farcical one (accused of following correct procedures) overturned on several counts by my union during my last years on the railway. It finished up with the so called manager that issued it being cautioned.

 

BeRTIe

Edited August 25, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[The Johnster]

I had 3, one of which got as far as form 2.  ISTR that form 2 resulted in a disciplinary  interview and was on a ‘3 strikes and out basis’.  
 

I was only aware of one instant dismissal during my time at Canton in the 70s, a fellow guard who had, on duty and die to work a passenger train back, ‘dined well but not wisely’ in the staff club at Temple Meads, and, taken to task over his condition by the Stationmaster, lamped him one on the platform in public view.  Bit stupid and out of character, but the immediate dismissal was absolutely the correct thing to do and he got little sympathy.  Had he done it out of public view, he might have got away with a warning after an apology, but in the circumstances…

 

Alcohol was ‘tolerated’ in those days, a residual part of a culture in which the denial of a beer to a fireman who’d just shovelled several tons of coal into a firebox on a got day was considered unreasonable, but we we expected to show responsibility.  The rules were that we were not to report for duty ‘under the influence’ or become so whilst on duty, ‘under the influence’ being a grey area.  The turning point, which happened during my time, was the Eltham Well Hall crash. 

[Rivercider]

I spent almost all of my 30 year railway career behind a desk, though mostly in a train operating environment, and I have never even seen one, much less been issued with one. To the best of my knowledge none of my former colleagues ever got one either. As TOPS clerks we got got closely involved with freight train running, and once a couple of us were asked questions about a Speedlink service that ran without a brake van (for dangerous goods requirements), but that was as far as it got,

 

cheers  

Edited August 25, 2022 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[Stretch37266]

I was given one at the end of my shift by my supervisor for leaving a handbrake on a dangerous goods train,on looking in my diary for the day in question,found I had been annual leave.The supervisor ripped up the form 1 threw it in the bin,made a phone call to the next man up the chain and ripped into him.

[bécasse]

I had an interesting case half-a-century ago when I was Sealink's car ferry reservation controller at Victoria. Our switchboard operator came on my internal phone and said that she had an Area Personnel Manager on the phone and he wanted to speak to John Smith's supervisor. I took the call and it turned out that JS had been working overtime in the booking office at Mortlake the previous Saturday afternoon and had apparently, with most of the rest of the station staff, disappeared down the pub for a very extended lunch break. Unfortunately, while he was there, an American turned up to retrieve some left luggage prior to flying back to the US. JS (rightly) had the keys to the secure area in his pocket and the only Railman left on site hadn't been told where everyone else was. As a result the American missed his flight and was now claiming a considerable amount in compensation from BR, so would I issue JS with a Form 1. So far this may sound like a text book disciplinary issue but ....

 

Shipping Division staff working overtime at Regional locations (and quite a few did it) were supposed to get formal permission to do so, not least because at that time there was no mechanism for transferring the cost of the overtime payments back to the Region concerned (which was probably why it was popular, the Region got a shift covered for free). So my immediate question to the APM was as to whether permission had been obtained (knowing jolly well that it hadn't). No it hadn't, they never bothered with such trifles was the reply, as the caller began to realise that his request was going to fall on stony ground. Well, I said, JS is a very popular lad, hard working and conscientious, but he has a problem, he is addicted to gambling and, for his own protection as well as the Company's, his staff record is endorsed to the effect that he must never undertake any role where he has access to the Company's cash, so, had permission been sought for him to work in a booking office, it would have been immediately refused.

 

I went on to say that, not only was there no question of JS being issued with a Form 1 (although I did agree to give him an informal reading of the Riot Act), but I was minded to ask my Manager to raise the matter of slack working with the DM, whom, my Manager having been previously AM Waterloo, he knew well. All of a sudden I had a very sheepish APM on the other end of the phone.

[Mike 84C]

I recieved a form one for making black smoke! I was a on a 9f at the shed departure signal at Banbury and this engine had really not got as much steam as was needed, maybe a 100psi, so I got out the bar stuck in the fire and gave it a good stir up, got the doors closed to stop me being scorched and this huge cloud of smoke just rolled across the tracks into Friswells engineering shop on the up side. Men soon appeared  rubbing their eyes and coughing! even opening the doors did'nt help much. Very careful after that!

    I thought it was three form 1's and you were dismissed.

[chris p bacon]

I only had one Form 1, and that turned into a farce.  

 

Half way through a shift I was called into the Area Managers office, I had no idea why and when I arrived I was ushered into an office where the AM sat looking stoney faced, He slid a piece of paper across the desk and I realised it was a 'Form 1'

I asked what it was about and he said there had been 'irregularities' in one of the booking offices. I realised that this could be serious and asked for my Union rep, the AM answered "we've spoken to J Blogs of the TSSA and he has no problem with you being here"  I replied "I'm not in the TSSA I'm in the NUR and I know the rep is in the mess room"  At this point the AM shot out of his chair and flew out of the door, from the next room I could hear raised voices and an Assistant AM appeared in the doorway. He asked why I wasn't in the TSSA and I replied that I was seconded to the Booking offices and hadn't started there, the union I'd been assigned on my first day was the NUR.  

One of the admin staff was sent to the messroom to ask the rep to attend, and a few minutes later he appeared in the doorway. He looked at the desk with the Form 1 and the AM who was now seated, he turned to me and said "wait outside" ...as the door closed the temperature in the room went through the roof as the rep laid into the AM with a lot of 'fruity' language being used. After a few minutes I was asked back into the room where I was asked about the allegations on the form. I read it and said "I've never worked there" ..It transpired that I had been confused with another.  The rep asked the AM to apologise to me, which he did, and we left.

 

Walking back to the messroom the Rep told me that they had issued the No 1 during my shift when it should have been at the end, and that they hadn't even taken the time to check they'd got the right person. Not only that but the TSSA rep didn't even check whether I was a member before deciding I didn't need any representation. 

[pete_mcfarlane]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Clause 9s were usually for gross misconduct or dereliction of duty - drunk, fighting, punching passengers, driving units around Sheffield Station at 3am instead of cleaning them, getting caught with a pornographic photoshoot going on in your signalbox, playing football on the island platform at Swinton SY instead of emptying the bins ("Poster frames for goal posts"), etc. Even then it was not unknown to be reintated on appeal, although usually with a downgrade or substantial unpaid suspension. 

There was a story doing the rounds of somebody in Darlington being given one for going to the pub for lunch on their last day before retiring and coming back a bit 'tired and emotional'.  I never found out if it was true, but I heard it from several people. 

[Wheatley]

1 minute ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

There was a story doing the rounds of somebody in Darlington being given one for going to the pub for lunch on their last day before retiring and coming back a bit 'tired and emotional'.  I never found out if it was true, but I heard it from several people. 

 

I hope it's not true but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. I've mostly worked with fantastic people on the railway over the last 35 years but I can think of at least two managers who would have gone out if their way to do that. 

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I had 3, one of which got as far as form 2.  ISTR that form 2 resulted in a disciplinary  interview and was on a ‘3 strikes and out basis’.  

 

I think you might be right, my 'Form 2' might actually have just been a letter/memo. It's still in the loft somewhere. "There is clearly some difference of opinion and on this occasion no further action will be taken against you". Yes, your DI cocked up and then lied to cover his a***. 

[PerthBox]

There are/were examples of Forms 1 and 2 on Flickr, though rather unhelpfully I can’t find them now so perhaps they’ve been deleted.

[Wheatley]

11 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

.After a few minutes I was asked back into the room where I was asked about the allegations on the form. I read it and said "I've never worked there" ..It transpired that I had been confused with another. 

That happened to a colleague, the alleged misdemeanour was entirely forgetting to book a train, shown up by a routine cross check of train registers either side so found months later and a major error. 

 

He simply denied all knowledge and wouldn't elaborate, found guilty, 14 days suspension loss of pay  and a final written warning so it went to appeal. The presiding officer was a universally hated moron and all concerned knew that the appeal would be heard by the legendary and feared ROM (C McK for 1980s ER veterans.)

 

"So what have you got to say for yourself signalman ?"

"Nothing sir, no knowledge."

"Is this your signature signing in duty ?"

"No sir".

"Pardon?"

"No sir it isn't"

"So whose is it ?"

"No idea sir"

"Were you not the signalman on duty ?"

"No sir, I wasn't rostered to work that day"

"Where were you ?"

"Tenerife sir. I was on two weeks leave"

 

Apparently the resulting conversation could be heard outside as he and his rep walked back to York station. 

[Chris M]

Not being a railwayman I had never heard of a form 1. I have heard of a "please explain" form though so maybe some railymen refer to them as a please explain form, or just like to use that phrase if someone has done something wrong. I think we could make good use of these forms at exhibitions. Maybe take a pad round and issue them as required to the layout operators. I have operating semaphores and, though I try hard not to, I always have two or three SPADS during the course of a day.  I reckon the most common reason for a form 1 at an exhibition would be to explain why nothing has moved for the last 5 minutes.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

...  I reckon the most common reason for a form 1 at an exhibition would be to explain why nothing has moved for the last 5 minutes.

..... or, conversely, why there's been incessant movement on what's supposed to be a sleepy branchline.

 

( Not to mention 'Please Explain' why you have to keep prodding your locos to get them to move.)

[John M Upton]

"Please Explains" has become the commonly used description for delay occurrence request forms, more prevalent today with the obsession  of finding someone other than the responsible train operator whose train it actually was to blame and take the fine for the delay.

 

These are still often responded to with the standard answers of:

 

"No Knowledge"

"Not my train"

"Ask Driver/Guard"

"Stuck behind [Insert name of other TOC (Usually Thameslink) here]"

"Been on Annual Leave for three weeks"

 

I don't know why they bother issuing them frankly.

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Not being a railwayman I had never heard of a form 1. I have heard of a "please explain" form though so maybe some railymen refer to them as a please explain form, or just like to use that phrase if someone has done something wrong. I think we could make good use of these forms at exhibitions. Maybe take a pad round and issue them as required to the layout operators. I have operating semaphores and, though I try hard not to, I always have two or three SPADS during the course of a day.  I reckon the most common reason for a form 1 at an exhibition would be to explain why nothing has moved for the last 5 minutes.

I must admit that when visiting an exhibition I sometimes feel that the operator has been distracted by their conversation with me. If an then incident occurs I have sometimes then jokingly mentioned that he will be getting a 'please explain' or a Form 1.

 

cheers  

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

I recieved a form one for making black smoke! I was a on a 9f at the shed departure signal at Banbury and this engine had really not got as much steam as was needed, maybe a 100psi, so I got out the bar stuck in the fire and gave it a good stir up, got the doors closed to stop me being scorched and this huge cloud of smoke just rolled across the tracks into Friswells engineering shop on the up side. Men soon appeared  rubbing their eyes and coughing! even opening the doors did'nt help much. Very careful after that!

    I thought it was three form 1's and you were dismissed.

Was that when Horace was the Shedmaster?  He could definitely get upset by some very trivial things such as the Cleaner at Reading who forgot put tea in the tepot before adding water and then poured it without looking before taking Horace's 'cup if tea' in to him. (yes, that particular Cleaner was really that daft - fortunately he never got any further).

 

I wonder if I can claim the record to the longest Form 1 hearing?  Apart from the basic fact that neither his rep or I could get any sort of sensible answer out of the accused the rep and I were obviously were approaching things from two different perspectives.  In the end at the start of what would have been the third day of the hearing the rep cam to me and asked if we could agree on a verdict as he could persuade the man concerned to accept what he reckoned that I was likely to give him (reduction in grade) provided that I could guarantee that he would be allocated to a particular job - and we settled on that basis.  

 

So the Form 2 reduced the man in grade from Guard to Leading Railman - which was not appealed - and the chap was duly put on a job which had him helping passengers with their luggage from the cab rank.   Which meant that I got rid of a next to useless specimen of a Guard, and he actually got a better pattern of shifts and probably made just as much money (with some of it no longer declared for Income Tax).

 

On one occasion I received a  Form 1 to deliver to one my Signalmen and it was clearly something of a trumped-up charge so I sat on it for a couple of days - officially waiting for a suitable chance to visit the 'box where he worked.  I duly turned up at the end of his Saturday morning shift and handed him the Form 1 while telling him to not bother to reply as I had also come to wish him well in his new career which would start the following day (as a member of The [New] Temperance Seven - with whom he played for a year or two).  I subsequently duly informed the Divisional Office that there would be no reply to the Form 1 as the man concerned had left the service.

 

BTW Form DP2 was an official Form.  It stated the punishment which was being awarded and noted the opportunity to appeal against that punishment before it took place.  Unfortunately far too many managers seemed to think that issuing a Form 2 was the end of the matter but it very definitely  wasn't because there remained a right of appeal (as noted above).  The Appeal could either maintain the punishment, or reduce or increase it, or completely dismiss the charge and punishment.  Following the appeal the punishment - if it still  remained - would be carried out.  The most common increase in punishment that I came across (and there weren't many) were usually a lengthening of a period of suspension from duty.

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

"Please Explains" has become the commonly used description for delay occurrence request forms, more prevalent today with the obsession  of finding someone other than the responsible train operator whose train it actually was to blame and take the fine for the delay.

 

These are still often responded to with the standard answers of:

 

"No Knowledge"

"Not my train"

"Ask Driver/Guard"

"Stuck behind [Insert name of other TOC (Usually Thameslink) here]"

"Been on Annual Leave for three weeks"

 

I don't know why they bother issuing them frankly.

Please explain forms were the pet way of following up train delays in one od the WR Divisions were I worked.  After a month of r so in the ho job I was thorouhghly hacked off with this bureaucratic nonsense so when a particular one arrived I turned up the corner and wrote on it 'You might have noticed that this train was diverted and delayed in consequence, the same thing happened the next day so asking about it nearly a week after the event is pointless, please follow up delays on my Area currently in future.'   We never received anothe please explain for train delays on the following 4 years (we didn't get many 'phone calls either).

 

Interestingly this was where some confusion came in.  Some years ptreviously when I had been regularly involved in the daily Regional; passenger train performance conference the person who sent out those selfsame please explain forms was always going on about 'a Form1 has been issued' - well experience on the receiving end quickly showed that they weren't Forms DP1.

[Mike 84C]

Ah ,yes that was Horace, Mr Williams, he could get very shouty, excited! Blowing down a 9f on the long pit which was right by his office usually enraged him. Looking back on things that happened I wonder how much was designed to wind him up!?  9f blowing its head off then blow down a full boiler! it was very loud but the amount of sludge that was in the pit after, always several inch's deep.  Very hard water at Banbury which is why our 9f's soon looked as if they had been lime washed, which they had.