Hornby announce TT:120

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I think most here are forgetting that the new Hornby TT120 range is primarily a TT (Table Top) train set system, where most buyers will happily run Class 66's with BR A3.s etc etc all together on an un-prototypical layout. A bit like the old Tri-ang TT3 range. Back in the 60's I ran anything and everything TT3 they made, all together (along with my Continental pacific on a Britannia chassis, and continental tank loco on a jinty chassis). Good fun. 

 

Folks need to lighten up, and either accept what is on offer or simply don't buy it. 

 

Heljan is sadly out, but the TT120 market will remain wide open, especially to advanced 3D printing. As I read above someone is already developing a mineral wagon. Good luck with this. I keep reading 3D is the future, well here is a golden opportunity.

 

Brit15

I started (in OO) around the same time, and mixed and matched inappropriate locos and stock because, until I started building kits, I had to!

 

Those days of extremely limited choice and only very occasional new introductions are long gone (thankfully) and whilst we remain free to worship at the altar of Rule One, we nowadays have the choice and opportunity to create and run authentic trains with very little effort.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Hornby allows anybody to produce a staple wagon like the 16T mineral without rushing one of their own out first. Old attitudes may well have transferred over from OO along with the models.

 

John

[Trainnoob]

I might consider this in the future, but I want to see where Hornby will take this range first, maybe they will produce some digital train set, I'm not getting my hopes up but you never know. Hornby technically already have experience with TT considering Arnold produce TT scale products 

[TT-Pete]

2 hours ago, Player of trains said:

I feel the early stage of the 1:120 lineup could easily befall what befell Dublo and they never made a proper small loco (the R1) until near the end. If there was say a Fowler 4F or a J39 in this range to begin with I would genuinely switch over as it would provide an ideal donor chassis to begin working from to make a Victorian and pre grouping style 0-6-0, so far all we have is a vague promise of a 57xx and that 's it.

 

Don't forget that this now puts the whole range of possible second-hand BTTB (Berliner TT Bahnen) or Tillig 1:120 loco chassis within reach as donors, they never looked right sitting under TT3 1:101 body shells, but they could be more suitable now. I would think that a producer such as Lincoln Locos might see the commercial possibility of 3D printing a 1:120 range if it takes off...

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/

 

I just checked - they already have!

 

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/2022/10/10/tt120/

Edited October 13, 2022 by TT-Pete

[Ravenser]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Well, I made a bad decision (again) today.

 

First thing, I forward ordered the Hornsby 08, having loose plans for a layout using that, and the Heljan 31 as the core.

 

I just discovered that Heljan have dumped the idea, so now it looks as if I could have a shunting loco, plus a distant dream/promise/aspiration of a small main haulage diesel (50 and 66 far too big and modern).

 

Bngger!

 

 

 

In the short term you can do a TT-120 inglenook I suppose, till the 37 appears

[HonestTom]

10 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

To those who can see no advantage of TT-120 over OO : the advantage is, of course, the much smaller size

 

Hornby's own website is making a big visual play of the smaller size, and of the potential it opens up

 

Their own list of benefits is here Hornby's "TT benefits"   I'm not saying I necessarily agree with every point, but this is what they are selling

 

 

Yeah, I must admit that I find some of the posts on here a little bit "But apart from all the established advantages of TT, what are the advantages of TT? None? Well, Hornby have failed and will surely go bankrupt. Should have listened to me. What fools."

 

That being said, some of the advantages they list seem a little artificial. Like, I don't see why they couldn't produce a downloadable trackmat in 00.

[Geep7]

19 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Well, I made a bad decision (again) today.

 

First thing, I forward ordered the Hornsby 08, having loose plans for a layout using that, and the Heljan 31 as the core.

 

I just discovered that Heljan have dumped the idea, so now it looks as if I could have a shunting loco, plus a distant dream/promise/aspiration of a small main haulage diesel (50 and 66 far too big and modern).

 

Bngger!

 

 

If it was an 08 and a 37, rather than a 50, being made first, along with some china clay hoods, plus the B&G HST, I can see a nice little Cornish branch line layout forming..... mind you, Class 50's were also used on Cornish china clay trains, but I think a Class 37 would have more universal appeal (outside of a Cornish scenario). But, would you do a split-headcode or centre headcode example, cut away buffer-beams or not..... At least the 50 is only either Refurbished or Unrefurbished I suppose.....

Edited October 13, 2022 by Geep7

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, TomE said:

Source for those figures? 
 

Bachmann have previously stated the ratio of N to OO sales is around 20%. 
 

Tom. 

 

 

See the original post for quotation

 

Quote

 

23 hours ago, murphaph said:

In western Europe, beyond Germany, TT is highly niche to the point of non-existence but in eastern Europe including the former GDR, TT is a major player, rivalling H0. The figures are a little out of date but things won't have changed radically:

https://modelleisenbahn.info/marktanteile-der-spuren

 

It's in German but the graphs for GDR and for Russia in 2004 show what the picture is broadly like in the former communist bloc.

 

 

 

You have to fight your way through the German, but its there .Ranging across various countries

 

It may be 20% for Bachmann UK . But It's currently 0% for Hornby - who are a bigger player in OO than Bachmann. 10%market share for N as a weighted average is perfectly credible

 

(And OO and N don't add up to 100% of the market)

 

N gauge may have gained a little ground since those figures. But for OO as a whole, 80% market share is still very credible and N for as a whole 10-12% market share (the balance being O and overseas HO)

 

N gauge market share here seems genuinely abnormally low. There seems an opening for an alternative small-scale product.

 

Whether marketers;' high-level conceptual logic translates on the ground is another matter

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

Yeah, I must admit that I find some of the posts on here a little bit "But apart from all the established advantages of TT, what are the advantages of TT? None? Well, Hornby have failed and will surely go bankrupt. Should have listened to me. What fools."

 

That being said, some of the advantages they list seem a little artificial. Like, I don't see why they couldn't produce a downloadable trackmat in 00.

 

The size is exactly the point, but unfortunately, the way Hornby has chosen to do it, it's also the only point.

 

TT:120 has been around on the continent for decades but TTBOMK, it's no higher than the fourth most popular scale in any * [western European] * country.

 

If that were to be as good as it got in the UK, I'm not sure how well that would fit with Hornby's self-image, or its need for volume sales. Establishing a new niche is fine, but it has to be remunerative enough to justify the investment involved and, in Hornby's case, also compensate for their declining share of the OO market.

 

John

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling
* [Addition] *

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

If it was an 08 and a 37, rather than a 50, being made, along with some china clay hoods, plus the B&G HST, I can see a nice little Cornish branch line layout forming..... mind you, Class 50's were also used on Cornish china clay trains, but I think a Class 37 would have more universal appeal (outside of a Cornish scenario). But, would you do a split-headcode or centre headcode example, cut away buffer-beams or not..... At least the 50 is only either Refurbished or Unrefurbished I suppose.....

 

A Class 37 is promised for Phase 3 of TT-120

[Les1952]

6 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

They are still known as Class 87 in Bulgaria........

 

 

In which case the Class 86 must have become Class 85..

 

Les

[Geep7]

Just now, Ravenser said:

 

A Class 37 is promised for Phase 3 of TT-120

Sorry, I went back and clarified that if they did it first, instead of doing the Class 50 first..... I just think Hornby would have been better having a mixed traffic diesel in the mix early on, rather than an express loco.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

A Class 37 is promised for Phase 3 of TT-120

 

But if too many wait to adopt TT:120 until Phase 3, there's unlikely to be a Phase 3...

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

 

The size is exactly the point, but unfortunately, the way Hornby has chosen to do it, it's also the only point.

 

TT:120 has been around on the continent for decades but TTBOMK, it's no higher than the fourth most popular scale in any country.

 

 

John

 

Local advice from Murphalp is that TT is actually number two in Eastern Europe, and in Poland and Russia iit runs HO surprisingly close

 

Half the size of Gauge O support base will probably do nicely here. Hornby just need a credible small-scale offering  - Bachmann dominate N (as Farish) and are second player in OO, but even for them  OO has a 4:1 dominance over N

[newbryford]

On 11/10/2022 at 15:20, CF MRC said:

I appreciate that it has already been noted, but I do hope they get the balance weights on the correct side of the wheels on the production models - however, I suspect that may be challenging to change in this run. 
 

Tim

 

Wow - that looks horrendous. 

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Local advice from Murphalp is that TT is actually number two in Eastern Europe, and in Poland and Russia iit runs HO surprisingly close

 

I'd agree with that, I've visited many model shops in Eastern Europe and its noticeable that TT outstrips N in all of them and is not far short of H0.

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you seriously think Hornby haven't thought this through.  Do you understand the basics of how a business operates, market research, financial backing etc, etc.

 

And don't attempt to patronise me again with a 🖤 again.

Sorry, it wasn't meant that way. (removed).

 

Yes, but all those calculations had to have been made at least three years ago in order to get a launch-range of this size in place for Xmas 2022.

 

Life for most people has changed rather a lot in the meantime (or is about to do so) and what might have seemed a sure-fire winner then, perhaps looks rather different now.

 

None of this reflects on Hornby's judgement, but that's no consolation if the venture doesn't thrive.

 

John

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Nearholmer]

17 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

can see a nice little Cornish branch line layout forming.....

Yes, well, in my tiny mind a North Devon & Cornwall Junction Stayed Open thing was forming, clay, milk, passenger trains, you know.

 

Looks like the milk and passenger got withdrawn, leaving only an 08 wombling slowly along with three wagons of clay once a fortnight - which will make a seriously uninteresting layout!

[Trains4U]

7 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I'd agree with that, I've visited many model shops in Eastern Europe and its noticeable that TT outstrips N in all of them and is not far short of H0.

At least it is in the model shops!

[HonestTom]

3 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

They're trying to encourage entrants into the scale, that's what would be my guess.

Have you contacted Hornby to suggest/ask for a OO trackmat and do these come as part of OO sets as standard?

 

I have no strong opinions on trackmats one way or t'other. As far as I'm aware, no one other than Hornby produce them. I just found it funny that one of the "advantages of TT" that they suggest is one that's entirely invented by them.

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The size is exactly the point, but unfortunately, the way Hornby has chosen to do it, it's also the only point.

 

 

I'm not sure I follow. The other inherent advantages are compatibility with international standards and scale-gauge accuracy. These are both things Hornby has chosen to promote.

[Les1952]

Just to come back on the NS 0-6-0 diesels.  (class 08 looky likies-)  

 

Their first ten (Class 400) were ex- LMS.  Then came 50 class 500 and 65 class 600 built by English Electric for NS.  It appears no Class 600 went East after sale, though half a dozen or so seem to be in the UK.  I can't find out (yet) what happened to the 500 series after withdrawal.

 

The 500 series would equate to Class 11.  Does that mean the 600 series are closer to class 08?

 

Les

 

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I have no strong opinions on trackmats one way or t'other. As far as I'm aware, no one other than Hornby produce them. I just found it funny that one of the "advantages of TT" that they suggest is one that's entirely invented by them.

I'm not sure I follow. The other inherent advantages are compatibility with international standards and scale-gauge accuracy. These are both things Hornby has chosen to promote.

The benefit of international compatibility surely depends on to what degree they expect an export market to develop, but fair enough.

 

However, I just don't see the relevance of a correct scale/gauge relationship when it's accompanied by hefty rail and chunky flanges. It's just one less thing that is wrong.

 

It doesn't look any better than current OO or N.

 

John

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[rogerzilla]

I said it in the other thread,but it's too close to N in scale, so brings little to the party.  It it had been 3mm, fair enough.  It's true that most homes don't have space for a decent OO layout but:

 

1. the space issue mainly applies to homes with children taking up the bedrooms, so layouts need to be packed away.

2. Neither N nor TT is particularly child-friendly.

 

For modellers with permanent layout space, there's not likely* to be much more detail compared to N and scenery, buildings, etc, won't be much easier.

 

The best thing about TT is the accurate track gauge, something Hornby make nothing of.

 

*it's all vapourware as yet

[HonestTom]

13 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

The advantage is, if you want one, that it's free.  I really can't find a fault with that.

Yeah, but the point I'm making is that, it's only an advantage in TT because Hornby don't produce it in 00, which they could also do. There is nothing inherent to TT that makes downloadable trackmats a possibility only in that scale. It's a minor point that I just thought was funny, because I am a whimsical fellow. It doesn't affect my opinion on the scale overall in either direction.

 

10 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

I said it in the other thread,but it's too close to N in scale, so brings little to the party.  It it had been 3mm, fair enough.  It's true that most homes don't have space for a decent OO layout but:

 

1. the space issue mainly applies to homes with children taking up the bedrooms, so layouts need to be packed away.

2. Neither N nor TT is particularly child-friendly.

Speaking as someone who rents a tiny flat in a big city, I can attest that there's a significant demographic you haven't taken into account there...

 

10 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

 

 

The best thing about TT is the accurate track gauge, something Hornby make nothing of.

 

They discuss it on page 3 of this brochure.

Edited October 13, 2022 by HonestTom

[britishcolumbian]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Perennials always sell, but to maintain interest you need variety, thats where I think this will stall. I cant imagine the BR130 Ludmilla is an annual favourite in the TT range at this point.

 

I don't understand why they keep pushing that thing in particular instead of the M62, still so many variants they haven't done of Sergei, whereas Ludmilla has already shown off all her dresses by now...

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Trainnoob said:

Off course everyone has different views. I find these price tags a bit steep for a smaller scale, the price for me makes no economic sense to move from 00 down to TT. There are 00 scale sets that are cheaper then this.

But you need to compare like with like

 

Hornby OO R1282 Mallard record breaker £249.99

 

Hornby TT Easterner £194.49

 

Gaugemaster N class 800 £212 (closest current set I could find)

 

There are more basic sets cheaper but a close comparison is more in OO and close in N at retail prices.