Hornby announce TT:120

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

Despite some of the marketing photos, I think the scale is too small for children.

 

Depending on exactly what age we are talking, even 00 is too small for children, and I’ve often though that part of the”we loose them after Brio” problem is down to trying to move children direct on to conventional 00.

 

I’d say that 00 and TT would both probably kick-in around 8-10yo, by which time kids have the dexterity for fiddly things, still have a lot of ‘imaginative play’ in them, and are beginning to form clear personal interests. It’s also an age where kids pick-up techniques very quickly, things like fine brush control in painting, so a good age for craft skills.

 

Based on my limited experience, two daughters, one son, I’d say that girls might make a better target audience than many boys, because they seem to enjoy building mini-worlds more, but where any small scale MR struggles in that area is that the little people are too small to become ‘actors’. Playmobil (G scale) and Lego (with 0 scale) score because the characters become characters - my youngest at that age even used to imbue counters with character, make families and households with them, if no actual figurines were to hand.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Nearholmer

[PeterStiles]

13 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

Are sound fitted locos available in N gauge?,

Farish do an 08 sound fitted. If they can fit DCC sound in that there's hope for everyone!

[PeterStiles]

58 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Amazon won’t list product that isn’t shippable.

Hah; nah.

At the beginning of each year, just after the Hornby Catalogue is for sale they are replete with many an item "temporarily unavailable" using pictures from the catalogue and blatantly not released yet..

[whart57]

40 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

In order: they won't.  It is.  It won't be that much stuff.

 

It's a huge launch because that's how a product range is launched: go big, grit teeth, hope for sales.

 

They won't abandon OO, the relative sales differential will be huge.  TT is not going to displace OO sales.  Hornby have large amounts of tooling which is long-since paid for and clearly has an established model exploiting that.

 

Factory capacity, I have no idea, but I suspect the TT volumes will be relatively low.  As someone who has bought in heavily on pre-orders, hopefully the have prescheduled effectively.  Even allowing for uncontrollable circumstances, I have accepted that I might well be on the receiving end of late deliveries and quality issues, but obviously I would hope these didn't happen.

 

The gamble Hornby are making, my guess anyway, is that a TT loco of a popular prototype will outsell a 00 model of something relatively obscure. That it will also outsell a re-tooled updated and improved version of a popular loco produced 30 years ago. That is the reality of the 00 market now, it is saturated. I also wonder how much value manufacturers get from the tooling given the short periods locos seem to remain on sale. There is also a lot of competition in the 00 market, not just major manufacturers but now also the large retailers commissioning their own stuff. But Hornby need to create the eco-system for TT, because it isn't there in this country.

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

I think they're comparing it to N, but that ship sailed years ago and N motors are often really good, with flywheels and all.

Possibly. In the list quoted from, the comparison seems to be entirely set up as 00 vs TT though.

 

It’s not a massive issue, just a slightly odd turn of phrase and I’m just curious as to what they mean by it.

[whart57]

4 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Perhaps the ordinary model shop needs to look at ways to make itself relevant again: sell yourself to me - show me why I should shop with you (at higher prices!) rather than online. The buyer's question of "what's in it for me?" needs to be answered, against the background of "I can get it readily at lower price online, from the comfort of my own home etc etc".

 

I appreciate the plus points of the local shop, notably for me, the community aspect, spending a few minutes extra chatting, asking for advice and opinions, etc... but aside from the most basic essentials like glue and paint, there's little I buy there (admittedly, that's partly due to my not modelling the Canadian Pacific in H0). Why should I special order something through the shop, when it'll turn out costing more and taking longer, involving an extra trip out as opposed to the postie bringing it to my door?

 

So basically you are saying that the shop owner should give you his time for free, plus cover the costs of rent, heating, security, bear the risks of unsold stock and everything else and not have a profit margin to pay for all that?

[whart57]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Not being sarcastic - this is exactly the issue. More and more of the trade is direct sales, and this steadily undercuts the ordinary model shop

 

That particular ship has sailed

[PeterStiles]

Well, the BBC has started the Flying Scotsman celebrations today. I can see a lot of people saying "you know, I'd like a train set" based solely upon this one prime (breakfast time) news item and popping onto the ol' internet to see what the offerings are....

 

Let's see what google finds... Google ("shopping" tab) finds: ta-da! First item is the Hornby FS OO train set. (YMMV). Second and third items are just the OO gauge Hornby train in different forms...

 

Nope. scroll down all I want no sign of the TT:120 version...

 

 

Although...

if he blows that whistle one more time I've going to take an axe to the telly... I'm trying to work up here!

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by PeterStiles
(must mention tt:120)

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, andythenorth said:

In order: they won't.  It is.  It won't be that much stuff.

 

It's a huge launch because that's how a product range is launched: go big, grit teeth, hope for sales.

 

They won't abandon OO, the relative sales differential will be huge.  TT is not going to displace OO sales.  Hornby have large amounts of tooling which is long-since paid for and clearly has an established model exploiting that.

 

Factory capacity, I have no idea, but I suspect the TT volumes will be relatively low.  As someone who has bought in heavily on pre-orders, hopefully the have prescheduled effectively.  Even allowing for uncontrollable circumstances, I have accepted that I might well be on the receiving end of late deliveries and quality issues, but obviously I would hope these didn't happen.

 

I agree, TT:120 is not going to replace OO, in even the very long term. The latter is too diverse and too entrenched for any new scale to do so without fully duplicating the huge choice available, even if all the brands and all the shops were on board with TT. 

 

Now that the Heljan distraction is out of the way, a clearer view emerges of what "duplication" really means in this case. Every * item (name/number variations aside) that Hornby proposes to release (even in their medium-term plans) is something they already offer in OO. 

 

Hornby speculate that the new venture will draw in loads of newcomers who otherwise wouldn't get into model railways at all. Maybe, but I am sceptical that the actual numbers will turn out to be anything like big enough to get this off the ground on their own, in anywhere near the timescale Hornby needs it to. 

 

Therefore, to succeed, TT:120 will have to attract custom from existing OO users, either through them "having a dabble", or switching scales altogether. The snag is that the (alleged) big thing about TT:120 is the small space it takes up. Adding a TT:120 layout of a size that will lead on to substantial sales of stock to an existing OO commitment runs counter (for most, Tim) to that idea. 

 

So, to switching; because the Hornby TT:120 range entirely duplicates the most popular parts of their OO offering, many (possibly most) purchases will represent an either/or choice, not between Hornby and a TT competitor, but between Hornby TT and Hornby OO.      

 

Thus, for every TT sale, Hornby stands to cannibalise one of an equivalent (and possibly more profitable) OO item. That's not going to be so every time, but I reckon it'll happen often enough to create (at best) a "two-steps-forward-one-step-back" scenario.  

 

I'm not claiming that it will happen, but Hornby risks "eating itself" while its OO rivals get on with the day job with less competition to worry about. 

 

John

 

* Except the 57xx in Phase 4 (thanks, Miss Prism).

Edited October 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

Hornby are on Amazon

 

Only 00, though. There's nothing listed for TT:120.

 

Given that Hornby has a dedicated Amazon store (which is pretty much an Amazon version of their catalogue) I don't think it would be a huge shift away from "direct only" to make them available there too. And, in the long run, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they open up TT:120 to "selected" (ie, compliant, non-boat-rocking) retailers at some point in the future. But I suspect a lot depends on how well it sells via the direct channel to begin with.

[Nearholmer]

It’s really slightly OT, but the shop vs direct-order thing throws up a lot of thoughts of its own.

 

To me, the big issue is that given the huge variety of MR gubbins available these days, the cornucopia of consumer goodies, only a giant warehouse style shop could hope to stock it all, and I’m not aware that such a place exists anywhere in the UK. So, no committed MR hobbyist is likely to be able to buy everything they need/want in any given physical shop, they will be buying at least some stuff by mail order from shops, direct from maker/commissioner, or at shows, even if they live within easy distance of a shop. So, it is a ‘mixed format market’.

 

Of the three shops in easy striking distance of where I live, each operates to a different business model: one is wholly mainstream 00, N and a tiny bit of 0, is pure MR, and does a lot of mail order trade as well as shop trade; one is a general model shop, plastic kits, tools, materials, paint etc, which also stocks very well in 00, N and a tiny bit of 0, but seems to do barely any mail order; the third is very specialist, stocking and selling by mail order a very deep range of garden scale models. What I conclude is that a physical shop has to have an “angle” to succeed, and each of these three has a different angle.

 

My other hobby is cycling, and one of my bros is deeply, deeply into angling, and those hobbies have different “shop models”, but again each shop has its own “angle”.

 

IMO shops for hobbies will survive, and  are possibly better placed to do so than some shops selling other things, but the shopkeepers have to be smart cookies.

[Miss Prism]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Every item Hornby proposes to release (even their medium-term plans) is something they already offer in OO. 

 

Not quite - the 57xx * (phase 4? , whatever that means) is an exception. That doesn't detract from the thrust of your argument though, John.

 

* assuming Hornby really does mean a 57xx, and not a 2721

[Hobby]

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

The topic includes the whole spectrum of perspectives and no-one has been combative or offensive but you are now trying to dictate what can or cannot be said principally because it differs from your view.

 

Just leave the topic and set one up about what you intend to do with your TT choices etc.

 

No, Andy, I am not trying to dictate what goes on, just pointing out that the subject they are commenting on goes well beyond direct sales and would be better discussed in a thread that covers the whole subject rather than take over a thread on a different subject, direct sales it but a small part of the launch but has taken up a disproportionate amount of space, sadly.

 

I was thinking about another thread to actually discuss Hornby's TT range but it's obvious from this thread that any attempt to do so before we actually see anything in the flesh will result in the same comments from the knockers that we see here. When I get the set I will start up a new thread, though.

[David Stannard]

9 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Not quite - the 57xx * (phase 4? , whatever that means) is an exception. That doesn't detract from the thrust of your argument though, John.

 

* assuming Hornby really does mean a 57xx, and not a 2721

 

The big question is will it be on a Jinty chassis?

[GWR-fan]

Last year I was ready to spend a couple of grand on "O" scale items to get a feel for them.  I was heavily involved in garden scale railways fro many years and felt the urge to try something a little larger than "OO".  At the time the cost of "O" scale locomotives and goods rolling stock was just a tad more than the same thing in "OO".   My overriding concern was what about all the "OO" stuff that I have.  I was not going to sell it and would it simply languish unused?  Similarly with TT120.  Some may take up a passing interest and others switch entirely,  but is there really a market ready to embrace TT120 and sway them away from their current scale?  I do not see many "N" scale modellers sizing up.   Does Hornby really believe that there is an untapped market out there who had no interest in "OO" due the area required but suddenly are inspired to take up the hobby,  embracing TT as being more "practical"?

[Miss Prism]

[railtec-models]

11 hours ago, irishmail said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, just seen this on Faceache, I mean facebook, Railtec Transfers are  planning to release transfers in TT 1:120.

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/catalog.php?type=5&gauge=TT

 

All those 500(!) TT packs are already all available to buy now. I'm not even sure if anyone has even got any of the new TT/120 product in hand yet (I only have limited resource and it's usually taken up with the incessant drive to R&D new product rather than read every bit of news), but at least making that line in the sand of 500 packs may allow some modellers to hit the ground running with customisations. Besides "static" packs there are customisable offerings in there, including 3d nameplates with choice of name/background colour that modellers of other scales will likely now be quite familiar with.

[AY Mod]

17 minutes ago, Hobby said:

No, Andy, I am not trying to dictate what goes on, just pointing out that the subject they are commenting on goes well beyond direct sales and would be better discussed in a thread that covers the whole subject rather than take over a thread on a different subject, direct sales it but a small part of the launch but has taken up a disproportionate amount of space, sadly.

 

You are; you're trying to knock back anything that doesn't suit.

 

e.g.

 

  

14 hours ago, Hobby said:

Here we go again  same old, same old, this must have been covered so many times already both here and elsewhere.

 

[PeterStiles]

29 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Let's see what google finds... Google ("shopping" tab) finds: ta-da! First item is the Hornby FS OO train set. (YMMV). Second and third items are just the OO gauge Hornby train in different forms...

 

Quick Update. Re-ran the search and what should pop up in first place this time?

 

 

 

 

Obviously I can't tell if this is what "joe public" would get because of Googles habit of trying to customise its searches for the users, so this is possibly biased.

 

OR it because everyone else has been searching for "tt:120 flying scotsman" and its affected the pigeons.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

You are; you're trying to knock back anything that doesn't suit.

 

This thread reminds me of a comedy sketch I saw years ago where people were lining up (in a corridor?) to interrogate someone, as one person finished and left the room they handed it over to the next person, ad infinitum. If you honestly can't see that's what's happening and why those of us who are genuinely interested in the launch, rather than the politics, are frustrated, then I despair.

 

OK I won't ask for people to stop any more, clearly that's not going to happen, I'll just respond to the comments and keep it polite!

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

More importantly though, that still doesn't answer the primary question - how does the fact that I can go and get a bottle of glue and have it straight away make it worth paying a not insignificant amount more for a locomotive or something, that might have to be specially ordered in anyways?

 

Actually, come to think of it, I could order a whole box of glue from an online source, pay less, and be stocked for the whole year...

Yes but if all the shops are gone, not all there customers will go online… a good portion may just melt away, a lot initially and more over time.

 

That reduces the overall demand volume for product, and increases the prices for those who do buy online… and the hobby just got smaller.

 

Now abstract that to TT…

 

if your customer is not online, or dont like online shopping they are immediately excluded. And of course if your not on the biggest online marketplaces (Amazon, Ebay) then many may never know your product at all… its hard to rely on word of mouth, from sat behind a desk on your own…thats where Forums etc help.. of course engaging with forums becomes important.

As far as I see Hornby TT is non of the above.

Edited October 14, 2022 by adb968008

[railtec-models]

10 hours ago, Nile said:

 

I see your point, but Railtech products are made to order so selling through shops wouldn't work.

Another problem for small suppliers is VAT. They are usually too small to have to charge it, but any shop selling their stuff would have to, thus pushing up the price.

With fewer small suppliers around model shops become more dependent on the big ones....

 

Some Railtec products are made to order, but the majority are not. Unless you specifically mean the TT/120 range, in which case yes - at present - those are made to order although they should still normally dispatch within a few days. I just wanted to get a bunch of TT offerings out there sooner rather than later to help develop some of the bigger TT picture. It's all well and good the RTR guys making stuff available but all those after-sales add-ons (not just transfers) that allow people to customise - in my opinion - can really help inject longevity into a hobby.

 

As for VAT, as the Railtec catalog has grown at a rate of ~500 new items a year (and turnover to reflect that), Railtec is already VAT registered, though guess what - I'm consistently that busy that I never had the chance to up all the prices (and still haven't), and given the poo-storm of current and recent events over the past couple of years, it's not in my heart to suddenly up everything by 20% and potentially discourage people from being able to afford something that may transpire to be one of the very few guilty pleasures in life at present.

 

So, specifically in the case of another VAT registered business wishing to re-sell Railtec product, they would/should be able to reclaim the VAT anyway.

 

[Trainnoob]

To be fair the entirety of the world's is moving online, Hornby is just following suit, I feel like model shops should start focusing on there online sales.

[MarkSG]

32 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

 

Quick Update. Re-ran the search and what should pop up in first place this time?

 

 

 

 

Obviously I can't tell if this is what "joe public" would get because of Googles habit of trying to customise its searches for the users, so this is possibly biased.

 

OR it because everyone else has been searching for "tt:120 flying scotsman" and its affected the pigeons.

 

If you want to see the results of a search without it being affected by your own prior history, the best way is to open an "incognito" windo and search there. When I do that, I don't see anything for TT:120 in the adverts or shopping results.

I do get this, though:

 

 

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

More importantly though, that still doesn't answer the primary question - how does the fact that I can go and get a bottle of glue and have it straight away make it worth paying a not insignificant amount more for a locomotive or something, that might have to be specially ordered in anyways?

 

Actually, come to think of it, I could order a whole box of glue from an online source, pay less, and be stocked for the whole year...

 

But you couldn't discuss which glue would be the best for your needs....

 

Les

 

Who has just bought a bulk pack of diabetic chocolate on Amazon after the only place within 30 miles who kept it decided to discontinue stock.......