Hornby announce TT:120

[Samedan]

I confess that I haven’t read every post in this topic, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I picked up from a (retailer’s I believe) comment on a popular YouTube channel that Heljan have announced that they are withdrawing/cancelling  their proposed TT120 locos due to Hornby covering the same ground.

If true, then it should act as a warning to anyone who hopes that TT120 will rapidly grow into a very well commercially supported scale with a diverse range of products. I really do think that Hornby’s approach to the hobby is going to be counter-productive in the long term (ref also their decision to exclude model shops from fully participating in the new scale). Yes, business is competitive and the environment is harsh, but model railways has an emotional component that, for example, washing machines, do not. 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, scots region said:

I did see on Facebook that it would be corrected for the release version.

Which might explain the delay in delivery until after Xmas....

[whart57]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Seems like all Panniers are the same to SK

 

As they are to me too.......... 

[Delta_Who]

38 minutes ago, Samedan said:

Heljan have announced that they are withdrawing/cancelling  their proposed TT120 locos due to Hornby covering the same ground. If true, then it should act as a warning to anyone who hopes that TT120 will rapidly grow into a very well commercially supported scale with a diverse range of products. I really do think that Hornby’s approach to the hobby is going to be counter-productive

 

 

Heljan had 2-3 locos, all in cad stage and most covered by Hornby already. Meanwhile Hornby have 23 confirmed locos coming (with a fair amount in early prototyping).
There's many things I could knock Hornby for, but if we're being objective here... Hornby have significantly increased the probability of TT:120 being a success... moreso than Heljan can claim.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Delta_Who

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Samedan said:

I confess that I haven’t read every post in this topic, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I picked up from a (retailer’s I believe) comment on a popular YouTube channel that Heljan have announced that they are withdrawing/cancelling  their proposed TT120 locos due to Hornby covering the same ground.

If true, then it should act as a warning to anyone who hopes that TT120 will rapidly grow into a very well commercially supported scale with a diverse range of products. I really do think that Hornby’s approach to the hobby is going to be counter-productive in the long term (ref also their decision to exclude model shops from fully participating in the new scale). Yes, business is competitive and the environment is harsh, but model railways has an emotional component that, for example, washing machines, do not. 

Heljan had CAD, and for the 08, it was "sometime down the road". Hornby announced it with "here's a preproduction sample in the flesh plastic". It's Heljan I'm questioning here, not Hornby.

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Heljan had CAD, and for the 08, it was "sometime down the road". Hornby announced it with "here's a preproduction sample in the flesh plastic". It's Heljan I'm questioning here, not Hornby.

 

Having seen that Hornby's sense of entitlement seems likely to have carried over undiminished from OO, chances are Heljan has made the smart move.

 

If they'd announced three replacements it's pretty much guaranteed that the same prototypes would appear in Hornby's announcements for Phase 5 or 6.

 

Best just walk away and give Hornby all the rope they want. Hope it's got a life-belt attached.😉

 

John 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[5Dublo2]

21 hours ago, philsandy said:

 

Did they have any of the locos running, if so how did they perform?

They had Blink Bonney and the DB Red 08 Shunter running on their TT:120 display layout at Gaydon today. They appeared to run very well,  which is probably a good thing as I can't imagine it is a quick process to lift the thick perspex box off the top of the layout should anything derail. 

One thing I did notice though - the ovals in their demo layout don't contain any points, the sidings to the engine shed run up to the rails of the inner oval but stop just short and don't connect at a set of points. As such we couldn't see the 08 cross any of the dead frogs on the points

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by 5Dublo2

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Samedan said:

I confess that I haven’t read every post in this topic, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I picked up from a (retailer’s I believe) comment on a popular YouTube channel that Heljan have announced that they are withdrawing/cancelling  their proposed TT120 locos due to Hornby covering the same ground.

If true, then it should act as a warning to anyone who hopes that TT120 will rapidly grow into a very well commercially supported scale with a diverse range of products. I really do think that Hornby’s approach to the hobby is going to be counter-productive in the long term (ref also their decision to exclude model shops from fully participating in the new scale). Yes, business is competitive and the environment is harsh, but model railways has an emotional component that, for example, washing machines, do not. 

 

22 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Heljan had CAD, and for the 08, it was "sometime down the road". Hornby announced it with "here's a preproduction sample in the flesh plastic". It's Heljan I'm questioning here, not Hornby.

 

Leaving aside the discussion about business practices and Hornby, I feel like the main point we can take from this is that manufacturers don’t feel like the TT:120 market can take this sort of duplication, whereas it appears to be less of a problem for them in 00.

[sleepyrider]

Saw these today too and I have to say I'm really impressed. I've spent the best part of forty years trundling up and down shelves due to lack of space, but I really want a tail chaser for a change. Tried N gauge, didn't get on with it, having been able to handle these today they really do seem a step up size wise. Plan to treat myself to a set and see how it goes.

 

[boxerbayrailway]

My first layout was German TT, a small 3x6'. when I was 13. I will say the size is very attractive and I enjoyed my little railway for about 10 years before dismantling & moving onto O gauge. If It had been British outline I probably would've kept it. I'm considering building another one with the new Hornby models, partly for nostalgic reasons, & partly for the large steam locos as I cannot accommodate (afford :) lol ) them in 7mm. Overall I would say TT was a perfect scale for me to get started & learn the basics of the hobby, so Hornby might very well be onto something. I wish them well & hope they don't make too many mistakes.  

P.S. I concur with RM's editor,  the scale needs to be seen in person, to be appreciated.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by boxerbayrailway

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Heljan had 2-3 locos, all in cad stage and most covered by Hornby already. Meanwhile Hornby have 23 confirmed locos coming (with a fair amount in early prototyping).
There's many things I could knock Hornby for, but if we're being objective here... Hornby have significantly increased the probability of TT:120 being a success... moreso than Heljan can claim.

Did Heljan claim they had significantly increased the probability of TT-120 being a success?

 

I just saw announcements about some Locos and then later after the Hornby announcement Heljan stating they were pulling out of the market, for now.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 

Leaving aside the discussion about business practices and Hornby, I feel like the main point we can take from this is that manufacturers don’t feel like the TT:120 market can take this sort of duplication, whereas it appears to be less of a problem for them in 00.

I'd tend to agree - almost - about duplication, with the caveat being not that TT can't ever take the duplication, but that it is *too soon* for such duplication to happen. 00 is as established as a scale can get, so duplication isn't an issue so long as one can deliver something the competitor can't, be that higher quality, or better price, or whatever. Once TT has established itself as a going concern, *then* duplication can happen - just need to explore the history of TT in Germany since reunification.

 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

If they'd announced three replacements it's pretty much guaranteed that the same prototypes would appear in Hornby's announcements for Phase 5 or 6.

Seeing how they're reportedly already planning Phase 9, I doubt that.

[JohnR]

I'm not sure Heljans decision was completely about duplication. They had only decided to go for the 31 a couple of months ago. Why did they not switch to producing, say a class 25? It would surely be just as popular as a 31, and they have the research/CAD. It's also something that Hornby hadn't announced.

 

The putative 08 is more understandable, and was only going to be produced IF the 31 was a success. 

[Delta_Who]

28 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Did Heljan claim they had significantly increased the probability of TT-120 being a success?

 

I just saw announcements about some Locos and then later after the Hornby announcement Heljan stating they were pulling out of the market, for now.

You'll have to be specific on that... Heljan or Hornby? I could quote what they thought of the competition and their predicted outcome.

Regardless... it's irrelevant to the OP's statement. The point here is that people seem over-keen to side with Heljan/ see Hornby and TT:120 fail etc.... as a direct result of Hornby's move. It fails to account that so far, Hornby have injected the biggest market investment into the scale so far.

In summary
- Not a single person in this thread knows what the outcome of TT:120 will be in 5-10 years time. Everything stated is just wishful speculation
- If TT:120 was to succeed, Hornby have objectively improved its odds
- Discussion on TT:120 seems very contaminated with conflicting specialist modelers/enthusiasts.

- Every scale and era has its enthusiasts, to the point where even the minorities are influencing the market (however small) (T-Scale has its own range, EM and P4 is now influencing Accurascale design choices).

This thread would be more interesting to come back to in 3 years time and see how many people have adopted TT, and if there is anything creatively unlocked that we haven't seen before.

@boxbrownie If I misunderstood your thread, lemme know. I do ramble on sometimes. haha

Edited October 30, 2022 by Delta_Who

[Les1952]

9 hours ago, irishmail said:

Hi Les, if you can would you mind asking Simon if he can confirm if the production runs of the coaches will have body mounted kk couplings .  Thanks, John.

 

All of the coaches on display had body mounted kinematic couplings with NEM mounts (the same shape mounts as N-gauge.)  He was telling someone else about them and I earwigged....

 

I did ask Simon about Trigo, which is on the stand with a GN-type tender and in the catalogue with a rather clean-looking high sided tender.  He said they have tooled multiple tenders and that Trigo would have the right one.  Looking that up in the RCTS Green Guide it will be a streamlined-non-corridoor tender rather than the 1927 type introduced with the A3s.  That tender is also correct for Flying Scotsman in BR days post its late conversion to left-hand drive.

Simon did confirm diagram 94A and 94HP (Thompson) boilers were tooled for and he thought diagram 107 (A4) boiler was somewhere in the pipeline.  I did put in the suggestion of contacting a nameplate maker to get alternatives - on the basis that if people like me could renumber them it would increase his sales.  

 

The A1/A3 running on the layout moves like an A3 in exactly the same way as the Minitrix and Farish A3s didn't....

 

On the J94, it will have high and low bunker variants, and the chimney will be a separate piece, so that the upturned flowerpot and giesel ejector could be made, though Simon wasn't aware of the fact that the front of the saddletank needs to be cut away for a GE- I'll take one of mine to Warley to show him.

 

I do have a few pics but I don't think they duplicate anything.  

 

All for now

Les

Now looking to see if a lightweight pair of 30 inch wide boards will go in the car......

Edited October 30, 2022 by Les1952

[Dunsignalling]

40 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Seeing how they're reportedly already planning Phase 9, I doubt that.

But they have only announced up to Phase 4 and could easily insert extras into those immediately following them.

 

However, the news that mostl of the initial releases won't arrive in time for the Christmas Train Set sales peak bodes ill for a rapid take-up of the new scale.

 

Another reason for Heljan to heave a sigh of relief?

 

John

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I'm not sure Heljans decision was completely about duplication. They had only decided to go for the 31 a couple of months ago. Why did they not switch to producing, say a class 25? It would surely be just as popular as a 31, and they have the research/CAD. It's also something that Hornby hadn't announced.

 

The putative 08 is more understandable, and was only going to be produced IF the 31 was a success. 

SK apparently informed someone at Gaydon that all Hornby models currently planned for TT:120 have previously appeared in their OO range.

 

If that's so, it would be sensible for others to stick to prototypes outside that list.

 

Or, perhaps more prudently, to concentrate on proven market sectors they already serve.

 

I doubt any of them are losing sleep over potentially missing out on Hornby's imminent bonanza.

 

John

[britishcolumbian]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But they have only announced up to Phase 4 and could easily insert extras to those immediately following them.

So if Heljan (or anyone else) have brains, they'll wait with an announcement until they've got something physical to show off. Even I, with zero marketing/business experience, can see this; if an established commercial venture can't do, well, that's their own fault.

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, britishcolumbian said:

So if Heljan (or anyone else) have brains, they'll wait with an announcement until they've got something physical to show off. Even I, with zero marketing/business experience, can see this; if an established commercial venture can't do, well, that's their own fault.

Or leave it five years and see if there's still a new scale to  get involved in. Nobody I know gives that better odds than 50-50, and that's just the optimists.

 

In any event, I think TT:120 has seen the last of Heljan. Their departure announcement rather smacked of permanence. 

 

John

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Decision made!

 

Train set ordered, baseboard kits ordered - new layout planned.

 

Using baseboard kits and setrack and so not a 12 year build like my current HO layout!

[AY Mod]

31 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

very contaminated

 

That won't gain your perspective much respect.

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Or leave it five years and see if there's still a new scale to  get involved in. Nobody I know gives that better odds than 50-50, and that's just the optimists.

 

In any event, I think TT:120 has seen the last of Heljan. Their departure announcement rather smacked of permanence. 

 

John

British 1:120 is here to stay. Even if only as a thing as niche as North American 1:120 is, it won't be going away anymore... and if Hornby do release just what they've already announced and nothing more, it will be rather less niche than NorAm TT is. This much is as certain as poison is toxic.

 

As for Heljan, who knows. That "TT:FN" sounded like the opposite of permanence... but with the way they handled this situation, even if they were to return I'd be sceptical of any announcement until it's actually available to buy. Let them leave, it's not like they're the only other model railway manufacturer in the world. If Hornby do well enough, I could even see Tillig jumping into the British market, on the basis of them seeing 1:120 as *their* domain.

[boxbrownie]

28 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

You'll have to be specific on that... Heljan or Hornby? I could quote what they thought of the competition and their predicted outcome.

Regardless... it's irrelevant to the OP's statement. The point here is that people seem over-keen to side with Heljan/ see Hornby and TT:120 fail etc.... as a direct result of Hornby's move. It fails to account that so far, Hornby have injected the biggest market investment into the scale so far.

In summary
- Not a single person in this thread knows what the outcome of TT:120 will be in 5-10 years time. Everything stated is just wishful speculation
- If TT:120 was to succeed, Hornby have objectively improved its odds
- Discussion on TT:120 seems very contaminated with conflicting specialist modelers/enthusiasts.

- Every scale and era has its enthusiasts, to the point where even the minorities are influencing the market (however small) (T-Scale has its own range, EM and P4 is now influencing Accurascale design choices).

This thread would be more interesting to come back to in 3 years time and see how many people have adopted TT, and if there is anything creatively unlocked that we haven't seen before.

@boxbrownie If I misunderstood your thread, lemme know. I do ramble on sometimes. haha

I just wanted to know if Heljan actually stated they had used that statement? Because it would seem a bit bold considering they had only just shown their intentions and a few CADs?

 

For my own interest I hope TT-120 is a success and more manufacturers down the line join in the fray, Hornby have been bold for an opening launch in a new scale in the U.K., but I can certainly understand the Heljan reluctance and withdrawing models which would be duplicates, PECO announced their TT track quite a while before (I believe) Hornby of course but I have no doubt whatsoever that both companies knew or even collaborated (using the word lightly) before we knew anything about it.

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

British 1:120 is here to stay. Even if only as a thing as niche as North American 1:120 is, it won't be going away anymore... and if Hornby do release just what they've already announced and nothing more, it will be rather less niche than NorAm TT is. This much is as certain as poison is toxic.

 

As for Heljan, who knows. That "TT:FN" sounded like the opposite of permanence... but with the way they handled this situation, even if they were to return I'd be sceptical of any announcement until it's actually available to buy. Let them leave, it's not like they're the only other model railway manufacturer in the world. If Hornby do well enough, I could even see Tillig jumping into the British market, on the basis of them seeing 1:120 as *their* domain.

I doubt Hornby will be satisfied with creating a "niche" or that such an outcome would justify the scale of their investment.

 

Others will all have a view on what will constitute "doing well enough", and how long that will need to be maintained to tempt them in.

 

A major factor in Hornby taking this step seems to have been their increasing difficulty in countering competition in OO.

 

Why would they even want to risk a  similar scenario in "their" new scale? My guess is, the longer Hornby has TT:120 to itself, the better they'll like it.

 

John

Edited October 30, 2022 by Dunsignalling