Hornby announce TT:120

[Allegheny1600]

WRT the model pictures posted by @AY Mod above, they look absolutely gorgeous!

I’m sure going to be happy with them if they run reasonably well.

[Phil Parker]

23 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Not entirely correct.  Those stating they couldn't see TT120 without filling in a form were wrong.  There was a TT120 layout with running trains on the main stand outside the door.  Perhaps in their disappointment they didn't see it.....

 

Les

 

If you mean the Harry Potter one, the only other layout on the stand, it's OO.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I don't know if someone has already mentioned it, but aren't the counterweights on the driving wheels on the A1/3 and the A4 in the wrong position? Makes the locos look a little odd when you realise the error. Or is this mistake just on pre-production stock?

Apologies if already noticed, but CBA to read the whole thread...

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

I signed up when announced. Still haven't got the pack though- so looking forward to my lanyard!  But I am a very cynical person by nature, so I have a question. I know membership of the club is free until January, but is that a full years free membership or will they start charging everyone from January on?   They already have credit card, so will it be like one of these things like the AA or McAfee where they automatically charge until you have to go on and tell them not to. 

 

It's a full twelve months membership. Those of us who signed up in October 2022 will only have pay the fee when we renew in October 2023.  Anyone joining on or after 1 February 2023 for twelve months has to pay from date of joining.

[adb968008]

47 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

TTistas  . Got to be word of the day. Watch how you say it, though!

 

Christmas traditionally when people get a set. I think it's about getting new people in not converting from OO to TT:120, so missing that slot must be a blow.

 

but that to me is wrong… its skewing the numbers.

 

If every christmas Hornby sells 100% OO gauge trainsets, but this christmas they sell 80% OO and 20% TT… I would learn towards thinking they simply robbed there own market to make a TT sale.

 

The bigger risk is if the 120th Army doesn't grow to full strength, then they've lead that 20% up a gulley waiting to be annihilated from the hobby.

 

of course if this christmas they sell 120% of usual trainset sales, and that 20% was new TT conscripts on top of OO, then they truly have found a nugget…. and 1 year from now we should have happy ears in the annual reports, and a bigger range.

 

47 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

On the other hand, Hornby have a major new TV program coming up, Presumably TT:120 will feature heavily in that, so having more to sell at that time might work 

 

It is indeed launching a range with a blackjack winning hand from a marketing perspective. But so was Steampunk. 

I do applaud Hornbys creative marketing mine of activities the last few years. 

But I think a better way in to TT isnt simply replicating OO in smaller size, but giving something OO does not have.. to make it more compelling than “it saves space”.. when much of the time in OO.. the trainset box goes in the bin anyway, and I cant imagine the TT box going anywhere else either in the family market….

 

Now if that average family, is like mine, its off down to a major High Street retailer one night, or Amazon for last minute TToys. As this going to draw a blank, the consumer may either buy OO, or buy another toy completely… 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But I think a better way in to TT isnt simply replicating OO in smaller size, but giving something OO does not have..

 

Such as?

[Mike Harvey]

The Hornby Terminal Talk from 10th October seems to think that interest has peaked already. Maybe if they had tried a little longer they could have piqued interest in more people.

 

Too warm for a hat or coat but I'm off anyway.

 

 

Screenshot here:-

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mike Harvey

[Howzatt]

The detail, particularly highlighted on the 08 locos looks fantastic at TT:120 scale. Many thanks for posting.🙂

[Hroth]

44 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

From my position demonstraiting a little way down the hall, it was a very busy show at times and if everyone had tried to get into the TT room, there would have been a real scrum, which people would then have moaned about. The models are very small and you'd have had very little chance to fondle them, or ask questions, without some control of numbers. For what it's worth, I have the club magazine, and it's an excellent publication. Plenty about the new range obviously, but also an interview with one of the designers, prototype piece on the A1/A3 and A4's, layout build, and history of Tri-ang TT from Pat Hammond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There will be some photos of the model later. @AY Mod is currently processing them, so watch this space.

 

Interesting. I'm betting the last photo with SK in it was taken from the far end of the "TT120 Lounge" with the camera on wide.

 

The display tables could have done with something to indicate scale of the boxes, track, etc.  A 1ft (30cm for those in new money) could have been helpful, especially with the track pieces!  The Oxford Diecast cars and vans look interesting too.

 

The "marketing" goods table looks rather odd, the club clocks, water bottles, tshirts etc aren't my cuppa, though the mugs are more attractive! 

 

Looking forward to more pics...

 

 

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Such as?

If I wrote down all my ideas I might as well work for them. If I write them down all i’ll get is bashed for it.

 

So instead i’ll give an easy missed one … could have been launching Rocket in TT instead of OO.

 

The space for era 1 was wide open… and demand existed. This could have been an easy way to grow a TT range.. and the market would have been all theres to expand.

 

That would have been compelling imo.

 

The later victorian scene remains all open, yet we see a growing range of models creeping into that era, its very pretty, colourful and varyful.. whats more given a lot of accuracy doesnt exist and the market for generics is there, this is still an area that could be explored with latitude on accuracy.

 

Other options exist, in eras, themes, technology and creativity of growth.

 

Electric cars have more unique addons than a battery cell that make them look cool.. they've incorporated ideas that liquid fuel cars don't have to add to the appeal.
 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[Hroth]

16 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I don't know if someone has already mentioned it, but aren't the counterweights on the driving wheels on the A1/3 and the A4 in the wrong position? Makes the locos look a little odd when you realise the error. Or is this mistake just on pre-production stock?

Apologies if already noticed, but CBA to read the whole thread...

 

Apparently its the problem that caused the setback for the boxed sets. Things like that are what pre-production samples are for.

 

8 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

The Hornby Terminal Talk from 10th October seems to think that interest has peaked already. Maybe if they had tried a little longer they could have piqued interest in more people.

 

Too warm for a hat or coat but I'm off anyway.

 

 

Eh?

 

Ta-ta!!

 

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, dagrizz said:

Sorry, I don't think this is a relevant analogy. East European NG is a rather limited market whereas Hornby are aiming for a broad appeal with British prototypes.  

 

It's a perfectly valid comparison. Just as you won't want duff models, neither do I, but in my case handling them isn't an option so I have to rely on photos and reviews. So exactly the same as having to buy TT sight unseen.

 

22 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I don't know if someone has already mentioned it, but aren't the counterweights on the driving wheels on the A1/3 and the A4 in the wrong position? Makes the locos look a little odd when you realise the error. Or is this mistake just on pre-production stock?

Apologies if already noticed, but CBA to read the whole thread...

 

Yes it's been mentioned quite a few times, but as pointed out the models we have seen are only pre production prototypes and it is expected that they will be corrected! :)

Edited October 31, 2022 by Hobby

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Many items in the original Tri-ang TT range didn't replicate their 00 stuff. Think, for example, of the Castle, Merchant Navy and BRCW DMU. Other items were duplicated though; a Jinty (of course), Britannia and Brush Type 2. Though were the Brit and Brush 2 introduced around the same time in both 00 and TT? 

[Chris116]

I made a comment early in this thread about my worry that the current Hornby organisation would treat TT:120 in the same way the Tri-ang did with TT3. Having followed this and other threads I am becoming more interested but my interest is in recreating my childhood layout with copies of the locos and rolling stock that were available (and I had at least one of every British model of the time). Once the range can do that then I will be very interested although the DMU had better run better than three of the four I owned!

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So instead i’ll give an easy missed one … could have been launching Rocket in TT.

 

The space for era 1 was wide open… and demand existed. This could have been an easy way to grow a TT range.. and the market would have been all theirs to expand.

 

Seriously?

 

As a means to expand an already saturated market maybe, though I'd have expected it to be done in 00 if such a demand existed, as it hasn't I'll draw my own conclusions. But for starting a new scale I'd have thought launching Era 1 would be the kiss of death, outside enthusiasts Rocket is about the only well known loco, hardly a springboard for success. Or have |i misread your post?

[jonnyuk]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Restricting vision of TT to those who sign up has several benefits…

 

1. your only going to sign up if your interested.
2. if your a oo modeller seeking to whinge, you cant see it without signing up

3. those seeing it in a roped off area are separated from earshot of others, again whinge reduction.

 

and finally..

 

4. if seeing it means signing up, theres a 1 in 10 chance you might buy… so this is a very good way of finding out the size of the market potential… Youve got no other competition, the market is exclusively Hornbys…. and each sign up, is a customer lead.
 

So if its 500, 1000, 10000 members, Hornby is the only guy in town to know the size of the TT market.

 

My guess is this is a key metric for decision making in the short term.

 

Down the road, I suspect another key metric will be how many TT club members convert to paid subscription… at that point the count of the remaining members my guess the potential would be 1 in 3 members would go on to purchase something in the short term.

 

if I was to hazard theoretical numbers, if 2000 is the magic number for a TTooling, you might need 20k free membership sign ups… and if 70% lapse at a paid subscription, then maybe 6000 paid up members maybe a leading indicator for 2000 sales… taking into account that isnt 2000 individual purchasers, a few hundred may purchase a few models over time… and hence the market is sized.

 

A negative indicator for TT to me, would be granting a second year of free membership… that would mean to me, that retention was an issue, therefore not enough commitment from the sacred TT army.

someone talking sense at last. 

Let me turn this around, for those that are against TT:120 and in particular the way in which Hornby are going about it, please submit your marketing strategy, how would you go about launching a brand new range? Your all experts so enlighten us.

 

I spoke with a few retails at Gaydon (one of which I've known for a long time) and his words were, Hornby have saved me from my self. Enough said

 

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If I write them down all i’ll get is bashed for it.

here it comes…

 

9 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Seriously?

 

And thats why its not worth discussing ideas, as everyone else knows better. (not that I think Hornby would listen to anything here anyway).

 

If TT is serious, then heres its competition…

 

its got construction value, its box is much smaller than TT, its cheaper..

 

Its even got a TTree.

 

And I asked the inlaws about space… they have a zip lock bag as the box is in the bin.

 

Who exactly is TT aimed at ?

Adults, Kids, N-gaugers, OO converts, Europeans, anyone who happens to pick the cheapest A1 by accident on the website ?

 

I cant guess from the range as its a bit all over the place, imo it needs focus and a USP… so far the USP is the box takes less space in the bin.. but so does that lego set.. and it will run on a table too.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Many items in the original Tri-ang TT range didn't replicate their 00 stuff. Think, for example, of the Castle, Merchant Navy and BRCW DMU. Other items were duplicated though; a Jinty (of course), Britannia and Brush Type 2. Though were the Brit and Brush 2 introduced around the same time in both 00 and TT? 

 

The Brit and the Brush were probably simultaneous introductions in OO and TT3 but I don't know for sure...  The other replication was the 350hp (08) shunter. I've got the TT3 Jinty, 08 and Brush. When my TT:120 set finally arrives, I'll see how they behave on Hornbys new track. I might be able to start on a Minories layout before suitable TT:120 locos appear...

 

Gratuitous photo from my "Cakebox Challenge 2018" entry, Drovers Road, illustrating the TT3 08 and a cattle truck.

 

Drovers Road

 

You can see how coarse the wheels are.

 

Only two photos survived the Great Migration...

 

 

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

And thats why its not worth it.

 

If TT is serious, then heres its competition…

 

its got construction value, its box is much smaller than TT, its cheaper..

 

Something you can say about all model railways. Not just TT. You could also put a picture of a computer game up, or a mobile phone, or a radio control car. Lego isn't the only competitor.

 

6 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

for those that are against TT:120

 

If anyone is "against TT:120", can I suggest they just ignore this thread. The sets are coming and all the bad-tempered ranting isn't going to stop them, all you do is confirm people's opinions of RMweb. If you don't like it, don't buy it. With few exceptions, there aren't many of us who own all the toy trains on the market after all!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

here it comes…

 

 

And thats why its not worth discussing ideas, as everyone else knows better. (not that I think Hornby would listen to anything here anyway).

 

If TT is serious, then heres its competition…

 

its got construction value, its box is much smaller than TT, its cheaper..

 

Its even got a TTree.

 

 

I like the realistic representation of the current Network Rail regime of lineside management...

[Hobby]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

here it comes…

 

And thats why its not worth discussing ideas, as everyone else knows better. (not that I think Hornby would listen to anything here anyway).

 

So please enlighten me how you know there's this massive untapped market for Era 1? It was you that suggested it, and I replied with my reason why I didn't think it was a very good suggestion for a new scale start up! I'd also suggested that, if anywhere, it would be worth a punt in 00, just not TT, as yet!

 

Yep, that set you pictured will sell, together with lots of other "toy train sets" that have dubious origins, I know several people who buy those sets for conversion into all sorts of narrow gauge stock, but I suspect that Hornby aren't competing in the same market as them (at least in TT!)?! 😀

Edited October 31, 2022 by Hobby

[adb968008]

Agreed lego isnt the only competition on the block.

But thats why I am also not convinced Hornby is aiming this as a trainset for kids, replacing Smokey Joe…

 

if it were, then TT would be in the triple A… Argos, Amazon and Asda.

 

So who is it aimed at ?

 

looking at the range, it feels like the enthusiastic of 1977. Its a suck it and see.

 

if I were to guess who it maybe is mis-aimed at, my guess would be rmwebbers… yikes you say…but now hear me out..

 

Its only on Hornbys website, there is no retail, there is no body of knowledge on the high street and TT is only discussed in a few minor sections of internet forums. There isnt even a second hand range on ebay to draw from.

 

TT is very niche, very few people in the UK know what 120 even means.
imo the TT society would be the core and key to its success., they are the ultimate evangelists for TT.

 

What is there membership size ? - Thats your starting market size.

What eras/ geographies interest them.. ? Thats your current product range..

if they dont get onboard who else is ?

 

so lets look: 3mm society …

https://sites.google.com/site/3mmpublic/40-years-of-3mm-modelling

it suggests 1000 members.

 

TT will need customer champions, success stories, inspirational stories, not from the vendor, but from customers. Photos of layouts, ideas just like OO has.

 

Thats where forums like this, other social media come in… there really isnt any other substitute in 2022.. The next growth level isnt 1000 members of the 3 MM scale, its a chunk of this forum membership to get support to allow it to grow.

With these followers on board, helping them promote it, without online support,  with customer champions it might be successful. In absence of all that its nothing more than a sub-section of one vendors website offering a model thats incompatible to any other product vendor in the UK.

 

Thing is I am a complete novice customer just hearing of this TT gauge thing… so I do as any other human in 2022… I type in “TT gauge” in google…

And Hornby doesnt even come up, despite being the only retailer vendor of it in the UK, let alone the 3MM society or even an internet forum…  you need to be an educated  modeller to learn of TT.. thats what I think it wrong currently.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[PeterStiles]

Well, that first match, the wiki article has a "British TT:120" section talking about PECO and Hornby

Edited October 31, 2022 by PeterStiles
clarity

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think most retailers are realistic enough to know they are on borrowed time with Hornby, even without the announcement of the TT:120 range on direct sales only. The smart ones will be planning a survival strategy that doesn't involve selling things in red boxes. It will happen, IMHO, the only uncertainty is how soon.

 

I'd be a bit surprised if Hornby has a really huge inventory of unsold stock. Hatton's (for instance, others don't enumerate their stocks as openly) have only been getting penny packet deliveries in recent times, but it's all been newish stuff.

 

However, that may beg the question as to whether Hornby is keeping surplus older items from them, or they are declining to take them at the prices Hornby require? If Hornby suddenly needed to bolster their cash flow for any reason (😇), I wonder who would blink first.

 

John

As at 1 April 2022 they had written off £211,000 of inventory in the past year and were holding a total of £16 million plus in stock (up £1 million on the previous year). Apart from the write-off it is is not easy to get at how long various stock has hung around.  But they sold some old stock to both Kernow and Hattons (and maybe other retailers?) towards the end of their fiscal year presumably at quite a discount as what I bought from Kernow in September for £150 would have cost well over £200 at its original RRP -10%.  Some of my items were from 4 years ago so they had been in the warehouse for quite a time;  if you look at what Hattons are advertising you can get an idea of how long it has hung around.

 

20 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

There did (a very long time ago of course) used to be a train set market in 0 though. Apart from the commonly cited issues with space in small houses (relevant to TT now as well) and the general progression to increasingly small scales as the technology to miniaturise and make them work reliably has developed, was there a similarly specific commercial reason why Hornby moved from 0 to 00 originally?

I think Hornby (Meccano) introduced 00 was for the simple reason that they saw it as a new commercial opportunity.  But then teh story becomes suvbject to massive external impacts - firts the war, then the post-war period and shortages of everything, then a gradual change of the model railway hobby itself.  Post war their 0 gauge effort was much smaller than it had been before the war and it was, i think, purely clockwork (but don't forget that electrical regulations were also changing).  

 

Post war houses tended to be smaller than those built in the '30s for a variety of reasons but Meccano already had Hornby Dublo before that change, and they still sold Hornby 0 gauge well into the 1950s.  The next shrinkage of houses sizes probably dates from the late 1960s/70s but became much more noticeable in the '80s/'90s and that trend has carried on until today - but even more so.  

 

So if you relate things to changes in the size of new houses one would expect N gauge to be more popular now than it has ever been and take a much bigger share of the market.  And TT - which is bigger than N - is now appearing as houses get even smaller while there has also been a significant revival of 0 gauge - totally counter intuitive to any thought about model railway scales being influenced by house size.   But TT will still allow a bigger layout than 00 and is probably easier to handle than N so it is not a bad idea as such.

 

[Hobby]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Agreed lego isnt the only competition on the block.

But thats why I am also not convinced Hornby is aiming this as a trainset for kids, replacing Smokey Joe…

 

if it were, then TT would be in the triple A… Argos, Amazon and Asda.

 

So who is it aimed at ?

 

looking at the range, it feels like the enthusiastic of 1977. Its a suck it and see.

 

if I were to guess who it maybe is mis-aimed at, my guess would be rmwebbers… yikes you say…but now hear me out..

 

Its only on Hornbys website, there is no retail, there is no body of knowledge on the high street and TT is only discussed in a few minor sections of internet forums. There isnt even a second hand range on ebay to draw from.

 

TT is very niche, very few people in the UK know what 120 even means.
imo the TT society would be the core and key to its success., they are the ultimate evangelists for TT.

 

What is there membership size ? - Thats your starting market size.

What eras/ geographies interest them.. ? Thats your current product range..

if they dont get onboard who else is ?

TT will need customer champions, success stories, inspirational stories, not from the vendor, but from customers. Photos of layouts, ideas just like OO has.

 

Thats where forums like this, other social media come in… there really isnt any other substitute in 2022..

With them on board, helping them promote it, without online support,  with customer champions it might be successgul. In absence of all that its nothing more than a sub-section of one vendors website offering a model thats incompatible to any other product vendor in the UK.

 

Thing is I am a complete novice customer just hearing of this TT gauge thing… so I do as any other human in 2022… I type in “TT gauge” in google…

And Hornby doesnt even come up, despite being the only retailer vendor of it in the UK.

 

Yes, as you say, we are all guessing, and none of us have a crystal ball, nor are experts in this type of marketing, hence we are up to page 90!! Just out of interest I did the search and Hornby TT:120 came up in the first of the "Ads" just below where you cut off the page! ;)