Hornby announce TT:120

[teletougos]

23 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

 

I said nothing about gauge.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Its the problem with the British loading gauge all over again!

The couplings look ok against Continental locos and rolling stock, but put them on an 08 and some PO wagons...

 

However, I'm looking forward to my train set arriving!

 

Interesting that you mention the BR 08 as it's based on the ex LMS BR 11 which was also the NS class 600 in the Netherlands and they don't look particularly small there, there are plenty of much smaller SG shunters in Europe.

It's really a bit of a myth that continental European locos and rolling stock are much larger than those in Britain.  American stock IS a lot larger-especially in the west- but, between the traditional British and the original "Berne" loading gauge, it's a matter of fourteen inches in width and just two inches in height but not everything  was built to fill that envelope with quite a lot of lines- e.g. in the west of France - sub-Berne gauge.

The British LG is more rounded at the top and has an awkward narrowing below platform height which have been enough to prevent true double- deck passenger coaches (though they are a bit of a squeeze elsewhere in Europe and require a dropped floot). The buffer beam dimensions and height are of course the same and that's where the couplings are.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Pacific231G

[Dava]

46 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

The argument "this is the UK market" that is becoming synonymous with "We're happy to run narrow gauge and pretend it is standard, whilst criticising every misplaced rivet on the model".

 

TT3 is 4'0" gauge.   OO is 4'1.5" gauge and UK N is 4'4.4" gauge.  

 

TT:120 is 4'8.69" gauge.  Somewhat closer to scale than even EM gauge manages.

 

Les

It seems to me that if you want to model with a correct scale/gauge combination, TT120 is ideally placed between 2mm FS with 9.42mm gauge and 3mm  FS with 14,2mm. In both of these  you have to build the track and at least rewheel or kit or scratchbuild the chassis. I admire 2mm FS but it’s not for me. I don’t want to return to 3mm and working with legacy Bec, Peco and Triang rolling stock bodies and hand built chassis.

 

If Hornby produce BR steam/diesel ‘era 4’ smaller models such as an 0-6-0T, 1st era DMU or single unit railcar and type 1 or 2 loco with matching 10 foot wb wagons, it will have a lot of appeal. Maybe there is scope for slightly finer wheel standards (tread width & flange depth) if this won’t affect trackholding on curves?

 

Dava

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Les1952 said:

 

The argument "this is the UK market" that is becoming synonymous with "We're happy to run narrow gauge and pretend it is standard, whilst criticising every misplaced rivet on the model".

 

TT3 is 4'0" gauge.   OO is 4'1.5" gauge and UK N is 4'4.4" gauge.  

 

TT:120 is 4'8.69" gauge.  Somewhat closer to scale than even EM gauge manages.

 

Les

Fortunately, TT:120 is finally a break from that long overused excuse. 

On the curves most of use 12mm gauge is probably a tad narrow given gauge widening but at that scale you'd probably need an interferometer to check.

Curiously, until the 1930s, French standard gauge was 1440mm which is exactly what you get when you multiply 12 by 120. When they went to the UIC standard 1435mm (56.496 inches) I doubt if an inch of existing track was changed. 

[irishmail]

11 hours ago, teletougos said:

Once they are blackened it may not matter so much. I am pleased they did spoked wheels. Hope they offer them as a part. 

Once the range developes, hopefully there will be additional parts like spare wheel sets, couplings etc.

 

Not sure if the axle is a standard length in TT:120, but Tilling do some wheel sets.   https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Accessory/Accessories/gb/liste.html?spur=TT&hersteller=Tillig&grup=Wheels

 

[teletougos]

57 minutes ago, irishmail said:

Once the range developes, hopefully there will be additional parts like spare wheel sets, couplings etc.

 

Not sure if the axle is a standard length in TT:120, but Tilling do some wheel sets.   https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Accessory/Accessories/gb/liste.html?spur=TT&hersteller=Tillig&grup=Wheels

 

Axle length may come to be an issue. As those of different suppliers do vary.

 

Spoked wheels for TT are rare. They were not as common in Europe as in the UK. The 3mm Society had 8mm and 9mm ones made over the years.

 

[This Society attracts a lot of negativity at the moment but they were there in TT when no-one else was. I wish people would just put a stop to it. ]

 

I have a bunch of spindly spoked 8mm wheels by a 3mm supplier which look nice, but they are plastic.

 

Also, correct 3' or 7.6mm diameter spoked wheel for 1:120 modelling, ceased being made years ago, so the Hornby ones are welcome. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by teletougos

[Roy L S]

9 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

The argument "this is the UK market" that is becoming synonymous with "We're happy to run narrow gauge and pretend it is standard, whilst criticising every misplaced rivet on the model".

 

TT3 is 4'0" gauge.   OO is 4'1.5" gauge and UK N is 4'4.4" gauge.  

 

TT:120 is 4'8.69" gauge.  Somewhat closer to scale than even EM gauge manages.

 

Les

 

Hi Les

 

While in OO and TT3 the scale/gauge discrepancy is noticeable (I have some of both), in N you are talking about 0.4 of a mm. If you were to stand a section of N "Finetrax" next to the same product made for the 2mm Scale Association I would challenge you to be able to spot the difference from any normal viewing distance. But then the 2mm SA is about much more than gauge, it is about finer standards across the board.

 

What cannot be disputed is that the scale/gauge ratio for TT120 is the same as for the rest of the world pretty much, and for me this could be a significant factor in people's choices.

 

I have the A4 set on order so that I can draw my own conclusions, but I have to say that I am unimpressed by the track/wheel standards, N lost those "pizza cutters" years ago and yet here they are again with TT120, perhaps this is the flip side (drawback) of trying to share common standards?

 

I was unable to make Warley due to being hit by a fluey cold, so haven't yet had the chance to see TT120 with the Mk1 eyeball, but if only circa 1/5 larger than N in all dimensions I am struggling to see how it will carve a niche. It is a brave move by Hornby and I hope it does, not least because the OO market is now so crammed with competing brands it is difficult to see how any business will benefit in the longer term if the Market isn't growing to match.

 

Roy

[HSB]

8 hours ago, Dava said:

. Maybe there is scope for slightly finer wheel standards (tread width & flange depth) if this won’t affect trackholding on curves?

 

Dava

The 3mm Society have  'fine-scale' standards for 12mm with a maximum wheel width of 1.75mm which, if combined with a 16.25mm axle length, would allow sideframes to be set at the correct distance apart. It might mean modifying PECO points slightly but won't affect trackholding on plain track. I'm waiting to get my first Hornby wagon so I can measure up the wheelsets and find out how long their axles are.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, teletougos said:

[This Society attracts a lot of negativity at the moment but they were there in TT when no-one else was. I wish people would just put a stop to it. ]

 

Eh? Where?! There was some negativity from some 3mm modellers early on about the choice of scale (understandable i suppose) but in the main that's disappeared, thank goodness, but I don't remember any negativity towards the 3mm Society itself, in fact they've been referred to on several occasions as a place to get bits...

Edited November 29, 2022 by Hobby

[Hroth]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Interesting that you mention the BR 08 as it's based on the ex LMS BR 11 which was also the NS class 600 in the Netherlands and they don't look particularly small there, there are plenty of much smaller SG shunters in Europe.

 

I appreciate that there are shunters rather smaller that the 08 on the Continent, particularly the Köf II shunter produced by Arnold.  I mentioned the 08 as there was some comment earlier in this thread about the size of the couplings and that they looked obtrusive, although I don't think they are, especially in the recent photos of decorated 08s at Warley.

[Moxy]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I mentioned the 08 as there was some comment earlier in this thread about the size of the couplings and that they looked obtrusive, although I don't think they are, especially in the recent photos of decorated 08s at Warley.

 

I agree with you about the couplings, when I was looking at the samples on Hornby's stand at Warley I didn't really notice the couplings.  On reflection that TT coupling is no more obtrusive than tension locks in 00 or the standard N couplings, I think it is just that the TT coupling is unfamiliar to British eyes.   I'm sure we will get used to it.

[The Stationmaster]

I was very impressed by the close coupling seen on the running Pullmans and teh A3 looked pretty good as did the 350 (aka 08).  At those sort of standards the range deserves the success for which Hornby are hoping.    And i hope for their sake that they really can can open up the new markets which they did to achieve with this scale. 

[ruggedpeak]

Regardless of the technical detail of wheels etc what was presented at Warley was an attractive proposition and whilst I don't see me selling my [excessive] OO gauge model collection the little red DBS 08 was a great little model and I can myself acquiring see a small TT collection of favourite modern image items like the 08 and the large logo 66. In an era of micro layouts I can see TT being taken up as well as being more mainstream friendly.

 

The TT resin buildings 'felt' to be the 'right' size - just a feeling but holding one in your hand they aren't too big and not too tiny you can't make out the features and detail. TT has a 'natural appeal' lacking from N and OO and I think will sell well when customers handle the models 'in the flesh'. Take the 08, it looks great, not as heavy or fragile as the OO versions (I assume as I coudn't get my mitts on one) and will sit in the fingers without the anxiety of the tiny N version that is eminently droppable for those of us with large hands and lacking a surgeon's dexterity.

 

Which is of course deeply ironic given that the Hornby appear to have decided to use sales and marketing channels that completely prevent customers handling the product. I wish them every success, once I've banged my head against a wall........this is a product that screams out for being put into customer's hands!!

[natterjack]

On the question of wheel sets, metal tyres are available  in a range of sizes for 2mm fine scale. I wonder if these might be adaptable with 3D printed centres?

[NCB]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I was very impressed by the close coupling seen on the running Pullmans and teh A3 looked pretty good as did the 350 (aka 08).  At those sort of standards the range deserves the success for which Hornby are hoping.    And i hope for their sake that they really can can open up the new markets which they did to achieve with this scale. 

I've not seen the models in the flesh but judging by the pictures which have appeared recently these are very nice models indeed. I hope that Hornby get the success they deserve.

 

If the couplings aren't to one's taste then there is always the option of replacing them by something different.

 

Nigel

[britishcolumbian]

Regarding finer wheels, Modmüller do make wheelsets to the finer RP25 specifications

 

https://www.muellerradsatz.de/c/tt-radsaetze-rp25

[Jeff Smith]

48 minutes ago, NCB said:

If the couplings aren't to one's taste then there is always the option of replacing them by something different.

......and here we start a whole new discussion.......couplings and coup!ing choice are probably more contentious than scale/gauge ratio......

[Pacific231G]

7 hours ago, Roy L S said:

I have the A4 set on order so that I can draw my own conclusions, but I have to say that I am unimpressed by the track/wheel standards, N lost those "pizza cutters" years ago and yet here they are again with TT120, perhaps this is the flip side (drawback) of trying to share common standards?

The common wheel standard is NEM 310 but, for 12mm gauge, that does allow for a flange depth of between 0.5mm and 1mm so they don't have to be quite so good at slicing 1:120 pizzas as  these appear to be. For 9mm gauge the range is 0.5-0.9 so it's really where manufacturers decide to be within that range. At the finer end of its range the NEM wheel profile is very close to NMRA RP25.

ADD

I've just looked at the Modmüller site and they say that their RP25 TT wheelsets are happy with Tillig track so I'd be surprised if they're not equally happy with Peco and Hornby track. for some reason they quote a flange depth of 0.64mm for RP25 but don't give that dimension for the standard, Rokal and Zeuke wheelsets.  Their "standard" TT wheelset does though appear to have about the same flange depth as Tillig and Hornby - a lot closer to 1mm than 0.5mm!  I'm guessing that the Rokal and Zeuke compatible wheels are outside the NEM specs. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Pacific231G

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

I've not seen the models in the flesh but judging by the pictures which have appeared recently these are very nice models indeed. I hope that Hornby get the success they deserve.

 

If the couplings aren't to one's taste then there is always the option of replacing them by something different.

 

Nigel

 

I wonder if it will be possible to get TT:120 tension lock replacement couplings???  🤪

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Hroth
Forgot the "replacement jester" emoji

[Tim Dubya]

22 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

......and here we start a whole new discussion.......couplings and coup!ing choice are probably more contentious than scale/gauge ratio......

 

Three links init 😉

[luke_stevens]

10 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Three links init 😉

 

Nah. KayDee knuckle couplings

 

L

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

Nah. KayDee knuckle couplings

 

L

Unfortunately, unlike  Kadee (not KayDee)  for H0, Microtrains (formerly a Kadee brand till Keith and Dale Edwards split the company) haven't yet produced a Magnematic coupler for the standard NEM 355  N & TT coupler pocket (the spec is the same for both scales). Dapol though have and I'd like to know what, if any, experience of them anyone has had. Since they're the same for both scales they ought to be less obtrusive in TT than in N.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Pacific231G

[luke_stevens]

3 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Unfortunately, unlike  Kadee for H0, Microtrains (formerly a Kadee brand till Keith and Dale split the company) haven't yet produced a Magnematic coupler for the standard NEM 355  N & TT coupler pocket (the spec is the same for both scales). Dapol though have and I'd like to know what if any experience of them anyone has had. Since they're the same for both scales they ought to be less obtrusive in TT than in N.

 

I have a pack sitting behind me but I have't used them yet. They look ok :0

 

Luke

[frobisher]

16 minutes ago, Hroth said:

I wonder if it will be possible to get TT:120 tension lock replacement couplings???

 

No one makes them (NEM) at the moment that I'm aware of.  It should be doable though, and might be less reviled than the Rapido N gauge coupler... 

[luke_stevens]

2 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

No one makes them (NEM) at the moment that I'm aware of.  It should be doable though, and might be less reviled than the Rapido N gauge coupler... 

 

These are the Dapol ones with the standard fitting.