Hornby announce TT:120

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Ok, this is a bit off topic but relevant to operating a Minories type terminus.  Did brake third corridor coaches need to be turned so that the brake compartment was always at the end of the rake?  Also tender locos would need to be turned.....

 

Not always. Many sets were Third/Brake Third with the brake end towards the middle. Usually one of them would be a Composite so that there would be some First Class seating. C/BT or T/BC would be quite common.

 

But the common way was to have a brake at each end anyway. So something like BT/BC, BT/C/BT or BT/C/T/BT.

 

Tender locomotives would usually be turned. But not always. The larger ones such as an A3 almost certainly would be as they would often go off to the sheds for refuelling, lubrication and ash disposal to get ready for the return trip. Something like a small mogul they wouldn't bother turning.

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

The Hornby TT range looks to be shaping up very nicely in terms of the models themselves. If they deliver the product and can manage direct sales well I think this should be a winner for them.

[Michanglais]

12 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

I would think this is a temporary "sorting things out" issue. Once TT120 is up and running I'd expect it to be distributed from inside the EU to EU consumers. 

 

Hopefully Michanglais's set gets sorted out and is just single charged.

 

Luke

 

Thanks Luke!

 

I tried an 'experiment' yesterday.

 

I figured OO has been on sale on the Hornby site all through the Brexit process and, although I suspect most modellers on the Continent would head to Hatton's and Rails, some must still buy via the Hornby site.

 

So, I went over to the (much hated by me!) OO section of the Hornby site, still logged in with my EU address as default address, and tried to place a pre-order... Same issues as with the TT section. I was told I qualified for free UK delivery (!), the VAT was, I presume, UK VAT, etc. etc. Same as my attempts at pre-orders for TT. So, I thought "maybe it's the 'pre-ordering' that's the problem", so I placed an order for an in-stock item. Same results. 

 

This is all with a very prominent header on the site claiming "EU Delivery Updates, improved, easier ordering from the EU". Talk about a slap in the face.

 

So, this time, I contacted Hornby 'customercare', as opposed emailing from the TT section of the site, in the hopes that they would have people with more experience of OO orders from EU States. I was very polite (that took some doing!) and indicated all the issues I'd had trying to place orders for TT - postage included/not included, VAT without indication of country (also sometimes included, sometimes not), absolutely no mention of Customs Fees, the contradictory responses I was getting when I sent messages - the whole shebang. I couldn't help dropping in that I'd bought from Hatton's (who are VAT registered in France) with no issues and so questionned the 'no retailers' policy. I understand (I think!) Hornby's reasons for their website sales only but it was just too tempting to let it pass. 

 

So, let's see what kind of response I get this time...

 

I sort of get the impression that Hornby are not catering to the EU (people ordering from other 'third countries' seem to be having no issues) yet there must be loads of British expats who have retired to Spain/moved to the EU to work pre-Brexit who would love to get in on this new offering. I can't imagine it's a market so 'negligible' that they could afford to ignore it and, as someone posted, getting EU enthusiasts interested in BR could really be a thing (especially if some of the comments I've seen on European forums are anything to go by). 

 

Just as an aside - sometimes, when I try to go to parts of the TT site, I get 'privacy issue' warnings from my Avast antivirus. Now, I think it was when I joined the TT club, I was asked for my credit card details and they are still being held by Hornby. I don't like this so I tried to 'erase' them through my Account but I'll be damned if I can find any way of doing it. I think I've looked everywhere feasible but is this 'allowed' - maintaining someone's credit card details when they don't want them held? Anyway, I mentioned that in my message to 'customercare' and asked them to erase them. I'd much rather enter my credit card details individually for each purchase when carrying out online transactions. But that's a whole other issue...

 

Sigh!

 

 

[teletougos]

On 17/12/2022 at 19:31, gc4946 said:

the GBRf 50 (50049) modelled by Hornby was unveiled in 2019 https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2019/03/gb-railfreight-unveil-class-50-locomotives.html 

and operated on a spot hire basis https://www.fiftyfund.org.uk/index.php/2-uncategorised/97-gbrf-and-class-50-alliance-collaboration-sealed-with-locomotive-repaints

It's a question of deciding which models appear first, according to Hornby's online shop and brochure, class 66s are expected spring next year, KFA container wagons are either in phases 3 or 4, no timescale has been given for an 800 yet

 

 

Reckon Hornby are doing 50s early on, simply because they and the 66s can use the same chassis without either looking odd.

 

A 50 is only 7" shorter than a 66 between axle centres. 42'8" vs 43' 3".  Truck wheelbase & wheel diameter the same to all intents and purposes. I guess  you'd do a 43' chassis and both can use it, as well as a 60?

 

Or so the CLAG website tells me. I don't know which model attracts the most love from followers of UK outline. Been told 60s are/were rubbish. Not seen one in a while. 

[frobisher]

5 minutes ago, teletougos said:

Reckon Hornby are doing 50s early on, simply because they and the 66s can use the same chassis without either looking odd.

 

A 50 is only 7" shorter than a 66 between axle centres. 42'8" vs 43' 3".  Truck wheelbase & wheel diameter the same to all intents and purposes. I guess  you'd do a 43' chassis and both can use it, as well as a 60?

 

Or so the CLAG website tells me. I don't know which model attracts the most love from followers of UK outline. Been told 60s are/were rubbish. Not seen one in a while. 

 

I should really hope not, that's not how modern manufacturing works.  It's normal to maintain a complete set of tooling for each loco (even if parts are shared with another) .  If you're tooling from scratch, which they are, you might as well get it right first time or you'll get roasted by reviewers.

 

[natterjack]

2 hours ago, Michanglais said:

 

Thanks Luke!

 

I tried an 'experiment' yesterday.

 

I figured OO has been on sale on the Hornby site all through the Brexit process and, although I suspect most modellers on the Continent would head to Hatton's and Rails, some must still buy via the Hornby site.

 

So, I went over to the (much hated by me!) OO section of the Hornby site, still logged in with my EU address as default address, and tried to place a pre-order... Same issues as with the TT section. I was told I qualified for free UK delivery (!), the VAT was, I presume, UK VAT, etc. etc. Same as my attempts at pre-orders for TT. So, I thought "maybe it's the 'pre-ordering' that's the problem", so I placed an order for an in-stock item. Same results. 

 

This is all with a very prominent header on the site claiming "EU Delivery Updates, improved, easier ordering from the EU". Talk about a slap in the face.

 

So, this time, I contacted Hornby 'customercare', as opposed emailing from the TT section of the site, in the hopes that they would have people with more experience of OO orders from EU States. I was very polite (that took some doing!) and indicated all the issues I'd had trying to place orders for TT - postage included/not included, VAT without indication of country (also sometimes included, sometimes not), absolutely no mention of Customs Fees, the contradictory responses I was getting when I sent messages - the whole shebang. I couldn't help dropping in that I'd bought from Hatton's (who are VAT registered in France) with no issues and so questionned the 'no retailers' policy. I understand (I think!) Hornby's reasons for their website sales only but it was just too tempting to let it pass. 

 

So, let's see what kind of response I get this time...

 

I sort of get the impression that Hornby are not catering to the EU (people ordering from other 'third countries' seem to be having no issues) yet there must be loads of British expats who have retired to Spain/moved to the EU to work pre-Brexit who would love to get in on this new offering. I can't imagine it's a market so 'negligible' that they could afford to ignore it and, as someone posted, getting EU enthusiasts interested in BR could really be a thing (especially if some of the comments I've seen on European forums are anything to go by). 

 

Just as an aside - sometimes, when I try to go to parts of the TT site, I get 'privacy issue' warnings from my Avast antivirus. Now, I think it was when I joined the TT club, I was asked for my credit card details and they are still being held by Hornby. I don't like this so I tried to 'erase' them through my Account but I'll be damned if I can find any way of doing it. I think I've looked everywhere feasible but is this 'allowed' - maintaining someone's credit card details when they don't want them held? Anyway, I mentioned that in my message to 'customercare' and asked them to erase them. I'd much rather enter my credit card details individually for each purchase when carrying out online transactions. But that's a whole other issue...

 

Sigh!

 

 

Keep us posted on this saga. As an OT aside, one of the Ukraine commentators I follow experienced five moths of vat  negotiation to allow fund raising sales to the UK (& Norway) while the rest of the world seemed to be no problem (including Russia!), Maybe Hornby need to get one of Rees-Mogg's constituents to sort it out with his magic wand.

[Michanglais]

31 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Keep us posted on this saga. As an OT aside, one of the Ukraine commentators I follow experienced five moths of vat  negotiation to allow fund raising sales to the UK (& Norway) while the rest of the world seemed to be no problem (including Russia!), Maybe Hornby need to get one of Rees-Mogg's constituents to sort it out with his magic wand.

 

Hmmm. Five months... factoring in potential delays, and so long as Hornby produce enough stock so that they don't sell out of everything immediately, I may be in with a chance!

 

I shall indeed post regarding how Hornby respond to my latest email, I'm guessing it may well be after xmas now. So much patience needed! :) 

[Pacific231G]

14 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Ok, this is a bit off topic but relevant to operating a Minories type terminus.  Did brake third corridor coaches need to be turned so that the brake compartment was always at the end of the rake?  Also tender locos would need to be turned.....

Minories was originally designed for intensive working of suburban trains with "turnover"tank locos though Cyril Freezer's original article did mention tender locos and expresses as well. For operating it or a similar terminus to fiddle yard scheme with tender locos  it's common to assume that the loco shed with its turntable is a little way down the line along with the carriage sidings, in reality he fiddle yard.  Given the cost of land in cities*,  that was pretty common though some termini such as Paddington (and some through stations such as Birmingham Snow Hill) also had stabling points with a turntable very close to the terminus. I don't know if at stabling points the turntables were used to turn tender locos or simply to enable a number of individual locos to be parked in a small space with immediate access to the main line.

It's interesting that, before fiddle yards were developed, plans for main line termini almost invariably included a turntable if not a complete MPD.

 

I'm accessing old memories but, on the steam age trains I travelled on,  I'm sure I can remember there often being compartments beyond the brake compartment. Mostly stock ran in sets that were strengthened with an extra coaches or two where necessary so were not turned and the basic set usually had a brake second at each end. The only coach I'm aware of being turned on a turntable was the rear end observation car that ran in the summer between Fort William and Mallaig but that was very exceptional.

 

I know that it was very common in North American for entire trains to be turned on Ys so that the head end cars were at the front and something like a club or observation car at the rear but I'm not aware of that being a normal practice in the British Isles. I don't kow if separating the loco from the passengers with the head end cars was ever a legal requirement in the USA or Canada but it was in France for wooden bodied stock (at least for expresses and "rapides"). 

 

With continuous brakes, the only reasons I'm aware of for the guard to be near the rear of the train would have been a) to be able to look along its length to check for open doors  etc. before flagging it to depart and b) to be able to protect the rear of the train with detonators if it broke down- in that event you obviously wouldn't want the guard to have to walk the whole length of a long express and then the required distance to protect it. for shorter local trains those would not have been issues.

 

*Cyril Freezer always argued that the common modeller's assumtion that a quiet rural branch line terminus needed less space than  why a busy city terminus was rather false as land was cheap in the countryside so branch termini tended to sprawl whereas the cost of land in cities meant that termini there had to be kept as compact as possible. The original Minories' five foot length in TT-3  and two metres in 00 was about what even a fairly small branch line terminus  would need

Edited December 19, 2022 by Pacific231G
add CJF ref to tender locos

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks, I appreciate all who answered my brake coach query.  My current O-16.5 layout has a 3 foot turntable fiddle yard which will also be used in a future On30 layout.  I would envisage a similar arrangement for a TT Minories layout.

[NCB]

Question. If you want the end of a track to  be isolated, eg as at the buffer ends in  Minories, how would you do it using Hornby set track?
 

Incidently,I reckon Minories works just as well as a main line terminus with suburban traffic and goods being located somewhere else. Could even be inter regional. So, A3s and Duchesses would be quite at home there. CJF postulated a reverse loop for the fíddle yard,  and that would work well with such a scheme; you could house storage for the locomotives within the loop. It shouldn't take up too much space.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

Question. If you want the end of a track to  be isolated, eg as at the buffer ends in  Minories, how would you do it using Hornby set track?

 

For OO Hornby and Peco both produce (slightly unsightly) isolating tracks and presumably this will arrive for TT:120 if it isn't already in the catalogue.

 

The same effect can be produced with one or two isolating rail Joiners (or a razor saw) to isolate the end section of track and then wiring in a single- or double-pole switch to reconnect power to the isolated section when required.

 

Alternatively there is DCC...

Edited December 19, 2022 by Porfuera

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, natterjack said:

Keep us posted on this saga. As an OT aside, one of the Ukraine commentators I follow experienced five moths of vat  negotiation to allow fund raising sales to the UK (& Norway) while the rest of the world seemed to be no problem (including Russia!), Maybe Hornby need to get one of Rees-Mogg's constituents to sort it out with his magic wand.

 

It's a problem with UK - EU orders. Orders to countries outside the EU are straight forward, VAT is deducted and local charges applied and collected as applicable in the same way as non-EU orders into the UK. I get stuff delivered to Singapore almost as quickly as UK domestic delivery and VAT deduction is a none-issue.

[Jeff Smith]

DCC would certainly be the best solution but cutting one rail and wiring with a simple on/off switch would do although it could possibly be bridged by coach lighting.....

 

Another difficulty with TT in a confined space such as Minories is uncoupling.

[britishcolumbian]

6 hours ago, Michanglais said:

yet there must be loads of British expats who have retired to Spain/moved to the EU to work pre-Brexit who would love to get in on this new offering.

If that was a market they were truly interested in they'd've done much better for Australia, seeing as there are more Britons in Australia than in all of the EU...

[Pacific231G]

46 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

DCC would certainly be the best solution but cutting one rail and wiring with a simple on/off switch would do although it could possibly be bridged by coach lighting.....

 

Another difficulty with TT in a confined space such as Minories is uncoupling.

That shouldn't be a problem if the break is only a bit further from the buffers than the longest loco- the coaches need never cross the break  if brought in by a loco at the front and for ECS backed into the platform that wouldn't be a problem in any case. This is where magnetic couplers score. I used to operate an exhibition layout that was a three platform terminus (off a single track throat with a kickback to some docks) that was operated from the throat end. Couplers were Kadees and there were magnets at the end of each platform road  a smidge over a loco length from the buffers and beneath an overall roof. You simply drove the train in and used the pilot loco to draw out the coaches to free the loco. With a well worked out train sequence, it was also one of my favourite ever layouts to operate.

[NCB]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

 

For OO Hornby and Peco both produce (slightly unsightly) isolating tracks and presumably this will arrive for TT:120 if it isn't already in the catalogue.

 

The same effect can be produced with one or two isolating rail Joiners (or a razor saw) to isolate the end section of track and then wiring in a single- or double-pole switch to reconnect power to the isolated section when required.

 

Alternatively there is DCC...

Dublo had a quite neat 1/4 straight isolating track. Seems an obvious requirement to me.

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, Michanglais said:

 

Hmmm. Five months... factoring in potential delays, and so long as Hornby produce enough stock so that they don't sell out of everything immediately, I may be in with a chance!

 

I shall indeed post regarding how Hornby respond to my latest email, I'm guessing it may well be after xmas now. So much patience needed! :) 

 

I'v e seen reference to this before - as a general bug across Hornby's websitre , not just for EU users. What isn't in stock ends up as seperate postage...

 

Since Hornby are also Jouef / Eletrotren /Rivarrosi , they must be doing significant EU sales online

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

There are isolating tracks in the Tillig "Modellgleis" range; they're referred to as "separating tracks" in the catalogue. There are versions with a break in one rail and with a break in both rails.

 

As far as brake coaches on suburban trains are concerned, on the lines out of Kings Cross at least, the formations were covered in a series of articles in Model Rail (there's an online index to this magazine on the UkModelShops website. IIRC, at one time there was a brake at each end of the formation, but when later coaches were introduced they changed to putting the brake in the middle of the formation.

[Michanglais]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It's a problem with UK - EU orders. Orders to countries outside the EU are straight forward, VAT is deducted and local charges applied and collected as applicable in the same way as non-EU orders into the UK. I get stuff delivered to Singapore almost as quickly as UK domestic delivery and VAT deduction is a none-issue.

 

Indeed. This is what I've been reading. 

 

As it happens, I've just joined the 'British Outline 1:120 TT Railway Modellers' group on Facebook and someone gave me Simon Kohler's 'direct' email so I've written to that in the hopes that some kind of solution can be found...

 

If Hatton's, Rails... etc. etc. can do it, there's absolutely no excuse for Hornby not being able to. 

 

I'm very keen to see what I get as a reply! 

 

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

18 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Ok, this is a bit off topic but relevant to operating a Minories type terminus.  Did brake third corridor coaches need to be turned so that the brake compartment was always at the end of the rake?  Also tender locos would need to be turned.....

 

Minories is classic 2-6-4T territory . It's a bit smaller than London Fenchurch St , and the LTS  was the preserve of 2-6-4Ts and earlier 4-4-2Ts . The North London Railway ran a similar style of railway from Broad St , and from memory the NLR owned no tender engines - 4-4-0Ts for passenger wprk

 

Round the corner at Liverpool St, the GE suburban services were the preserve of J69, F4 and N7 tanks . Over at Marylebone they were using 2-6-4T L1s , and at Kings Cross N2s

 

In the last decades of loco-hauled non-gangwayed suburban services out of Moorgate on the GN Widenened Lines route , Class 31s were hauling 5 coach rakes of Mk1 57' suburbans , with a single brake coach marshalled in the centre of the train . The GN Moorgate Widened Lines operation again is very much Minories in real life .

The actual inspiration , Liverpool St Met , involved Met Bo-Bo electrics on Liverpool St/Aylesbury / Verny Jnc services, which handed over to a big tank engine at Rickmansworth (a Met 4-4-4T up to 1937 - thereafter something LNER/BR . post war it was L1s then Stanier/Fairburn 2-6-4Ts)

 

These are all runs of 40 miles maximum , so very much big passenger tank territory 

 

What you really need - but Hornby  haven't yet announced in TT120 - is a big passenger tank ... Failing that, a 31 is pretty prototypical

 

As far as couplings are concerned the obvious solution  for Minories is Kadees with an electromagnet at the platform end. This , in TT120 , implies Dapol Easi-shunts

 

PS : There were Board of Trade regulations as to how many axles were permitted behind the last brake vehicle in a train. I think they amounted to 2  bogie coaches - hence the centre brake in a 5 car set on the GN suburban . A single central brake was also the rule on the 4 or 5 coach Transpennine South sets in the 1980s

 

The BoT also liked a brake vehicle to be marshalled at the front of the train, behind the engine , to provide a passenger=-free crumple zone in case of collision

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ravenser
add BoT regs

[D9020 Nimbus]

The real "missing link" for a TT:120 Minories, at the moment, is the lack of "suburban" coaches.

 

Outside of London, Glasgow had a big suburban network, using lots of Fairburn and BR standard 2-6-4Ts, V1/3 2-6-2Ts and N2 0-6-2Ts; in the last years of steam on the Glasgow Central L.L. line, BR standard 4MT 2-6-0s, class 20s and even on occasions class 17s could appear.

[frobisher]

8 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The real "missing link" for a TT:120 Minories, at the moment, is the lack of "suburban" coaches.

 

One way or another, I can see that gap getting filled.  If Hornby have their existing recent suburbans in 00 any of which types would be more than welcome, but if the range gets enough traction to interest the "others" to dip in, the MK1 Subs would be very welcome, ditto the B-Set.

[Dava]

7 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

One way or another, I can see that gap getting filled.  If Hornby have their existing recent suburbans in 00 any of which types would be more than welcome, but if the range gets enough traction to interest the "others" to dip in, the MK1 Subs would be very welcome, ditto the B-Set.

Gresley or Thompson suburban stock ideal, with N2 or N7 tanks!  My membership pack arrived today, without mag , good to see level of interest in TT120. I’ll place an order next month probably.

 

Dava

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The real "missing link" for a TT:120 Minories, at the moment, is the lack of "suburban" coaches.

 

Outside of London, Glasgow had a big suburban network, using lots of Fairburn and BR standard 2-6-4Ts, V1/3 2-6-2Ts and N2 0-6-2Ts; in the last years of steam on the Glasgow Central L.L. line, BR standard 4MT 2-6-0s, class 20s and even on occasions class 17s could appear.

 

Worsley Works offer etched sides and ends for LMS 57' non-corridor stock in 3mm , for Period 1 , 2 and 3 (=Stanier) stock. They advertise their willingness to reduce their 3mm stuff to TT120

 

Once Hornby release their LMS Stanier coaches, a 57' donor vehicle for conversion is available....

[luke_stevens]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Worsley Works offer etched sides and ends for LMS 57' non-corridor stock in 3mm , for Period 1 , 2 and 3 (=Stanier) stock. They advertise their willingness to reduce their 3mm stuff to TT120

 

Once Hornby release their LMS Stanier coaches, a 57' donor vehicle for conversion is available....

 

Back in July I asked them about reducing down their BR MLV from 3mm to TT120. They said that they could do it but couldn't give a date. I offered an up-front payment though that wasn't requested. I'm still waiting :)

 

Worsley Works - "I can do it for you buet cannot give a date as I will need to fill a new 18" x 12" sheet"

 

The Hornby Mk1's will make things easier as it give me a roof and general structure.

 

Luke