Hornby announce TT:120

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Yes and we hate 00 h0 0 S and especially N!

 

In reality... quite a bit of ancillary items may be of use to 3mmers!....just like 00 using selective ho stuff in h0!...quite a few 3mmers who model narrow gauge ie 12mm gauge 🙊 will use peco or Hornby track as will be better looking than h0m peco track...so now the mushroom cloud of hornbys announcement has had to clear let's see what we can use in 3mm.

3mm charter states promoting scale 1:101 ish but nothing stopping a tt120 modeler paying the 20quid annual membership fee to use 3mm shop!

 

Unless the 3mm Soc goes down the old ways of the S4/P4 split, where even the most innocent of contacts with one resulted in ostracism from the other.

 

Or having to physically demonstrate some 3mm scale artefact!

 

I hope they're pragmatic enough just to take the membership fee and look the other way...

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hroth

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

Please explain how you came to this conclusion based on anything I've said, because I can't figure it out - most especially not in connection to what you quoted.

The short post I quoted implied (to me) that any trader not yet interested in stocking TT:120 is a short-sighted fool doomed to financial oblivion!

 

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

 

IMHO, with Hornby betting the farm on this, anybody waiting to see how it pans out before risking any of their own money is doing the smart thing.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Pacific231G]

On 25/01/2023 at 16:14, Ravenser said:

 

How far can existing 3mm wheels be used? They are at least aimed at 12mm gauge, and at 6/5ths of  TT:120 scale the scale difference might be managable

Hi Ravenser

I think responses to your question seem to have diverted into speculation about how 3mm modellers feel or doen't feel about TT at 1:120 scale. 

I have to say that I was once a member of the 3mm  Society purely to get hold of their products for H0m. I was completely open about that and they didn't mind a bit.

What may have been missed is that one advantage of TT:120 is that British railway wheels, for wagons at least (coach wheels were often 3ft 6ins in the past),  are generally the same diameter as most of those in the rest of Europe.  The Railway Clearing House defined 3ft as the standard nominal wheel diameter (often delivered as 3ft 1.5 ins to allow for wear) and the UIC standard diameter size for wheels is 920mm i.e 36 inches. Therefore, unlike with 00, where 4mm scale wheels are generally too large for H0 and vice versa,  wheelsets made for the established continental European TT market should be fine for most British prototypes in TT:120. The same may well apply to things like loco chassis and drivers.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

For now, Hornby give the impression of wanting the whole thing to themselves

 

Not the impression I got from watching SK on one of the TT Talk videos when he was talking about sharing plans with other manufacturers, especially Peco IIRC

 

14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

IMHO, with Hornby betting the farm on this, anybody waiting to see how it pans out before risking any of their own money is doing the smart thing.

 

And as has been said many times before, it is very doubtful that TT:120 is all-or-bust for Hornby. That would be very bad business practice.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Porfuera

[bradfordbuffer]

26 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Unless the 3mm Soc goes down the old ways of the S4/P4 split, where even the most innocent of contacts with one resulted in ostracism from the other.

 

Or having to physically demonstrate some 3mm scale artefact!

 

I hope they're pragmatic enough just to take the membership fee and look the other way...

 

Pay the 20quid your a member full stop....don't matter what you model in....

I'm a paid up member.....but shhhhhh I've got some 4mm 00 models don't tell the committee! ...and I probably will buy a tt120 08 coz I liked to drive them

No need to look the other way or pretend otherwise 

[Dunsignalling]

26 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Not the impression I got from watching SK on one of the TT Talk videos when he was talking about sharing plans with other manufacturers.

 

 

And as has been said many times before, it is very doubtful that TT:120 is all-or-bust for Hornby. That would be very bad business practice.

Unfortunately, Hornby's attitude to other players in OO has never been exactly collegiate, and there's every reason to expect them to be at least as territorial about their new baby.

 

If they really wanted others on board, why would they have gone direct only for the launch?

 

Whatever the level of Hornby's jeopardy in relation to TT:120 may be; at this stage, nobody else needs to take on any.

 

If it develops well in the next 3 or so years, there'll be ample opportunity for others to enter with little risk and hanging back won't incur a significant disadvantage. If it goes badly, they'll have dodged a bullet.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[britishcolumbian]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 there's every reason to expect them to be at least as territorial about their new baby.

Although I disagree, this thought entertains me to no end because that's exactly how Tillig feels/felt about the scale (i.e., their baby).

 

But even Tillig has never had an issue with other manufacturers, so long as those manufacturers are making things Tillig doesn't... and since the success of Piko and Kuehn even Tillig's come to accept that there are and will remain other large-scale manufacturers in the scale and will be competition.

 

What sets Tillig apart, however, is that they started out with a full-range near-monopoly in the scale, inheriting it from BTTB as they did. Hornby are a newcomer to the scale, and basically starting from scratch in a new market it's most definitely in their interest for other manufacturers to get involved in British 1:120, as that will just grow the market for their own products that much more.

[britishcolumbian]

20 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

If they really wanted others on board, why would they have gone direct only for the launch?

Probably because they expected many retailers wouldn't want to take the chance? I'm new to the British modelling scene but it's already become quite evident to me that a certain segment despises Hornby - including some retailers. In Hornby's position, I'd've done exactly the same.

 

And evidence for not wanting exclusivity is that they obviously had some coordination with Peco: if Hornby wanted a monopoly in the scale, why on earth would they want (added) competition in the most important part, the track?

[Dunsignalling]

57 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Although I disagree, this thought entertains me to no end because that's exactly how Tillig feels/felt about the scale (i.e., their baby).

 

But even Tillig has never had an issue with other manufacturers, so long as those manufacturers are making things Tillig doesn't... and since the success of Piko and Kuehn even Tillig's come to accept that there are and will remain other large-scale manufacturers in the scale and will be competition.

 

What sets Tillig apart, however, is that they started out with a full-range near-monopoly in the scale, inheriting it from BTTB as they did. Hornby are a newcomer to the scale, and basically starting from scratch in a new market it's most definitely in their interest for other manufacturers to get involved in British 1:120, as that will just grow the market for their own products that much more.

UK modellers are notoriously parochial and the amount of crossover between Continental TT:120 and UK TT:120 is likely to be negligible. Neither Hornby or Tillig will therefore be treading on one another's toes. Tillig's real UK competitor will be Peco.

 

As for anyone following in Hornby's footsteps, previous examples of them diversifying from their "day job" certainly wouldn't provide much encouragement!

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[britishcolumbian]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

UK modellers are notoriously parochial

They haven't hitherto had much choice in the matter.

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Probably because they expected many retailers wouldn't want to take the chance? I'm new to the British modelling scene but it's already become quite evident to me that a certain segment despises Hornby - including some retailers. In Hornby's position, I'd've done exactly the same.

 

And evidence for not wanting exclusivity is that they obviously had some coordination with Peco: if Hornby wanted a monopoly in the scale, why on earth would they want (added) competition in the most important part, the track?

Hornby do trainset track, Peco do modellers track for those who want better but don't/can't build their own.

 

In any event, Peco supply track worldwide and might well have been planning an entry into TT:120 even without Hornby adopting it. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

They haven't hitherto had much choice in the matter.

There are thousands of HO models they could have been buying for decades, but relatively few ever have.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Ravenser

I think responses to your question seem to have diverted into speculation about how 3mm modellers feel or doen't feel about TT at 1:120 scale. 

I have to say that I was once a member of the 3mm  Society purely to get hold of their products for H0m. I was completely open about that and they didn't mind a bit.

What may have been missed is that one advantage of TT:120 is that British railway wheels, for wagons at least (coach wheels were often 3ft 6ins in the past),  are generally the same diameter as most of those in the rest of Europe.  The Railway Clearing House defined 3ft as the standard nominal wheel diameter (often delivered as 3ft 1.5 ins to allow for wear) and the UIC standard diameter size for wheels is 920mm i.e 36 inches. Therefore, unlike with 00, where 4mm scale wheels are generally too large for H0 and vice versa,  wheelsets made for the established continental European TT market should be fine for most British prototypes in TT:120. The same may well apply to things like loco chassis and drivers.

 

 

Agree.

 

There is resistance/opposition to TT:120 , but it doesn't come from those in 3mm. Look elsewhere for that....  I would see it as a question of cordial fraternal relations between two adjacent scales. There's an interesting and generally speaking supportive letter in the current Mixed Traffic, which arrived last week.

 

(Personally, I think the question of the 3mm Society covering 1:120 scale would only arise in the event that Hornby abandon British outline TT:120 after a few years. At that point there might need to be a lifeboat operation such as the Society was launched to do in 1965 for 3mm after Triang pulled out. But as I've said before, British outline 1:120 scale would always be in a stronger position given the existance of TT as a fully commercial scale on the Continent)

 

Useful to know that the wagon wheel size is more or less standard with the Continent. If we get plastic wagon kits, then that could be a resource. Alternatively Hornby could sell packs of their own wheels - as they do in OO

 

 

[MarkSG]

40 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

UK modellers are notoriously parochial and the amount of crossover between Continental TT:120 and UK TT:120 is likely to be negligible.

 

I suppose a model of a Eurostar, and potentially freight locos which use the tunnel, could be an obvious crossover. Maybe TT:120 might see the first RTR Class 9000 😀

[Ravenser]

34 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

UK modellers are notoriously parochial and the amount of crossover between Continental TT:120 and UK TT:120 is likely to be negligible. Neither Hornby or Tillig will therefore be treading on one another's toes. Tillig's real competitor will be Peco.

 

As for anyone following in Hornby's footsteps, previous examples of them diversifying from their "day job" certainly wouldn't provide much encouragement!

 

 

 

If there is some kind of market for British outline TT, then it is likely that one of the players in Continental TT might have a punt on a British model or two . Especially of something that has also run in Eastern Europe. There are a few options for that nowadays.

 

I am very curious who may have been behind Gaugemaster's Expressions of Interest for a Class 66 . My guess was that it was a defensive play by a Continental manfacturer who was trying to block Hornby out of having a TT 66 to see in Eastern Europe by getting there first. Given BritishColombian's comments about Tillig's "proprietorial" attitude to the scale, Tillig are a definite suspect. Piko and Roco are also possible.

 

Hornby's 66 has gone for tooling , and we can be confident it will go into production. So will the IFA - both are being released in E European liveries under the Arnold brand

 

The scenarios are therefore:

 

- TT:120 in Britain prospers and remains in long-term production from Hornby

-  After a few years Hornby largely drop TT:120 in Britain , but the 66 and some other items including the track remain in the range under the Arnold brand

- Hornby go bust . Production stops . Someone buys the Arnold TT tooling (an entirely saleable asset) along with the 66 and any other dual market items , and they go back into production

- Hornby go bust. The British TT tooling is lost. Someone on the Continent plugs the obvious gap by releasing their own 66. We know someone out there is already willing to tool up a 66 in TT if there isn't one from Hornby

 

I'm not sure quite why you are so determined that there cannot or should not be any commercial support for this scale in Britain outside Hornby  (even to the point of denialism about Peco making TT:120 track for the British market) .

 

But we already know that 2 Continental manufacturers are willing to look at tooling up a British locomotive in TT if it isn't available from Hornby. That is where we should logically look for any other RTR players to emerge.

 

I doubt very much that anyone with a stake in British outline N will go anywhere near this scale for at least a decade. But those manufacturers already in Continental TT may be willing to have a modest punt, if they see some kind of market

[Ravenser]

19 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

I suppose a model of a Eurostar, and potentially freight locos which use the tunnel, could be an obvious crossover. Maybe TT:120 might see the first RTR Class 9000 😀

 

Class 66 , Class 92, Class 87, and any type of wagon Freightliner have also used in Eastern Europe. (Hornby have indicated that the delay sending the 66 for tooling was due to sorting out the variations covering Eastern European 66s)

 

This doesn't help steam age modellers, but 08s and J94s might not be completely without interest to the Continental market

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

  (For what it's worth - I don't think many committed N gauge modellers will change scale.

 

Oh good, I prefer being one of the chosen few......

 

Les

[ianmacc]

7 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Class 66 , Class 92, Class 87, and any type of wagon Freightliner have also used in Eastern Europe. (Hornby have indicated that the delay sending the 66 for tooling was due to sorting out the variations covering Eastern European 66s)

 

This doesn't help steam age modellers, but 08s and J94s might not be completely without interest to the Continental market

Also the 47, 56 and 86s that went east. 

[Stefen1988]

Three GWR 0-6-0 Dean Goods ended in Germany after the Battle for France in 1940;

 

One was after 1945 renumbered as 53 7607 by the East German Deutsche Reichsbahn and was operated until 1955.

One ended after WW2 in West Germany but was ever operated again and go scrapped in the early 50s

One was claimed by the Red Army and was given to be operated by the Austrian BBÖ arround 1952.

 

Hornby could sell a TT120 Dean Goods as 53 7607 under the Arnold Brand as a limited run for East German / Continental Customers.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Stefen1988

[Les1952]

13 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Class 66 , Class 92, Class 87, and any type of wagon Freightliner have also used in Eastern Europe. (Hornby have indicated that the delay sending the 66 for tooling was due to sorting out the variations covering Eastern European 66s)

 

This doesn't help steam age modellers, but 08s and J94s might not be completely without interest to the Continental market

 

We are on the brink of the Nuremberg Toyfair- I wonder if we are about to find out what Arnold Class 66s are planned?

 

Les

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

If there is some kind of market for British outline TT, then it is likely that one of the players in Continental TT might have a punt on a British model or two . Especially of something that has also run in Eastern Europe. There are a few options for that nowadays.

 

I am very curious who may have been behind Gaugemaster's Expressions of Interest for a Class 66 . My guess was that it was a defensive play by a Continental manfacturer who was trying to block Hornby out of having a TT 66 to see in Eastern Europe by getting there first. Given BritishColombian's comments about Tillig's "proprietorial" attitude to the scale, Tillig are a definite suspect. Piko and Roco are also possible.

 

Hornby's 66 has gone for tooling , and we can be confident it will go into production. So will the IFA - both are being released in E European liveries under the Arnold brand

 

The scenarios are therefore:

 

- TT:120 in Britain prospers and remains in long-term production from Hornby

-  After a few years Hornby largely drop TT:120 in Britain , but the 66 and some other items including the track remain in the range under the Arnold brand

- Hornby go bust . Production stops . Someone buys the Arnold TT tooling (an entirely saleable asset) along with the 66 and any other dual market items , and they go back into production

- Hornby go bust. The British TT tooling is lost. Someone on the Continent plugs the obvious gap by releasing their own 66. We know someone out there is already willing to tool up a 66 in TT if there isn't one from Hornby

 

I'm not sure quite why you are so determined that there cannot or should not be any commercial support for this scale in Britain outside Hornby  (even to the point of denialism about Peco making TT:120 track for the British market) .

 

But we already know that 2 Continental manufacturers are willing to look at tooling up a British locomotive in TT if it isn't available from Hornby. That is where we should logically look for any other RTR players to emerge.

 

I doubt very much that anyone with a stake in British outline N will go anywhere near this scale for at least a decade. But those manufacturers already in Continental TT may be willing to have a modest punt, if they see some kind of market

I'm not saying that there won't or shouldn't be any non-Hornby involvement in UK-outline r-t-r TT:120. However, Hornby has a record of reacting quite fiercely to competitors in OO announcing items that they regard as "theirs" and whatever the facts of their TT:120 interaction with Heljan, it's not going to encourage anyone else to assist them in getting the scale off the ground in the UK market.

 

As you suggest, were Hornby not making one, a Class 66 would be a no-brainer for another maker wanting to dip a toe in the water. With that now only providing the opportunity of duplication, such a model is much less likely, though there are a couple of other (albeit less ubiquitous) candidates. 

 

SK has himself described what Hornby is doing as a gamble, though we can't know how much the company might be damaged should the venture end badly. 

 

Hornby's competitors are significantly eating into their market share in OO, which must have been a contributory factor in them deciding to move into a second scale. Those players that Hornby see as "the problem" will, I suspect, not take their eyes off the (OO) ball in the way many of us fear that Hornby might (or perhaps have already). Most are already active in at least two scales anyway, so Hornby's diversification could justifiably be seen as catching up with the industry norm.

 

For all those reasons, I very much doubt that those giving Hornby grief in OO will view TT:120 any differently than the established N gauge providers. 

 

Of course, those adopting TT:120 would dearly like to have a "Plan B" supplier involved to keep Hornby committed if things go slower than projected. However, there's no commercial incentive for any of Hornby's competitors to go for a slice of the TT:120 cake before Hornby's sales over (imho) at least three years demonstrate the size of the cake. Indeed, that is arguably the only prudent course.   

 

John 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

If they really wanted others on board, why would they have gone direct only for the launch

 

I really don't follow that, I can't see if it's any different whether they do direct sales or retail. I suspect its more of an attitude that it's up to others if they join Hornby. The more stuff that's available the more likely it will succeed do discouraging others would be counter productive.

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I am very curious who may have been behind Gaugemaster's Expressions of Interest for a Class 66 . My guess was that it was a defensive play by a Continental manfacturer who was trying to block Hornby out of having a TT 66 to see in Eastern Europe by getting there first. Given BritishColombian's comments about Tillig's "proprietorial" attitude to the scale, Tillig are a definite suspect. Piko and Roco are also possible.

Whoever it was likely figured to pick up on the work Mehano started on a 66. They announced that not long after the release of their Blue Tiger, but then withdrew from TT entirely. Given that, I don't think it was one of the Big Names. If I had to guess, MTB may have been involved, since they cater mainly to non-German markets (Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and Romania thus far). For those reasons I expect them to get in on the British game with one or another of the types operated in Hungary and Poland. 

[britishcolumbian]

Also because MTB were the ones who released the SW1200, the first RTR NorAm locomotive in TT scale in half a century.

[peak experience]

I would've thought that 3mm 1/100 modellers would be quite amenable to Hornby's entry into the TT120 market. If Hornby's venture is successful, the secondary manufacturers that'll spring up in Hornby's wake, providing building materials such as etched doors and windows, embossed plasticard etc, will provide 3mm modellers with further sources for materials for kit bashing/scratch building. Stonework and roof tiles, gates and fences, in particular, come in a variety of shapes and sizes. 

-------------------------------------

Also to add to the list of UK prototypes that ran on European rails, we can add the EM2/class 77 and the original Tommy. I for one would be very interested in a TT120 Woodhead based layout. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by peak experience