Hornby announce TT:120

[gc4946]

The J94 and 57XX pannier brought forward is very welcome news. 

We'll have to see which variants will appear, eg extended bunker on some J94s and/or provision for a cab/bunker to represent the later GWR 8750 panniers.

Edited March 30, 2023 by gc4946

[Les1952]

17 hours ago, Roy L S said:

While what Les says is unquestionably true, perhaps this should have been a consideration in the timing of the launch as it has been the case for some time now. 

 

I purchased the "Easterner" set as a taster and being pleased with the overall quality thought a little TT120 branch terminus/shunting layout would be nice project. I now have my first three wagons with a few more plus a blue 08 on order, have purchased a board from Grainge and Hodder, some Peco TT120 track. Some short radius points and other track bits should arrive today.

 

However I have now belatedly realised looking at the range in PH1-4 that aside from the 08 (which ideally I would have preferred in early BR black or green) there is pretty much nothing else suitable in the announced range until Phase 4 when the J94 and 57xx will arrive. Looking at the projected timing for even Phase 2 products, realistically these Phase 4 "launch" locos look unlikely to be available for some considerable time (possibly 2025?). I would be very happy to be proved wrong but that is how it looks.

 

The attraction of building a layout for which I will have just one suitable loco for (from what I can gather) could be two or more years, has put a bit of a damper on things for me, coupled to which Hornby's focus really seems to be mainly on big locos with nothing middle-sized like a small tender loco or Bo-Bo diesel (OK there will be a 31 in PH 4 but that's still physically quite large).

 

My conclusion is therefore that I will still purchase the 08 and remaining wagons but otherwise park the BLT idea for the foreseeable future and concentrate on my primary modelling scale (N). From what I am reading others are reaching similar conclusions.

 

Now it could be that Hornby are content to let people like me fall away, as it seems as if they are more targeting people who will be happy with a big loco and three coaches on a layout based around developing a trainset oval. If that's the case that's fine by me, after all it is their (or should that be their investor's) cash at risk and their vision. I just wish I had realised a bit sooner before going beyond the basic set, but that's on me really for not realising lead times are likely to be so long for the launch range. The basic items bought will still be there if and when things turn out to be more favourable, it just means I'll not commit any more cash to TT120 for now.

 

Roy

 

There is a rather nice range of small diesel locos in the Piko range, some of which would pass for UK industrials.

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

14 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Has he? I can't remember any comments from him about those sorts of layouts in relation to TT120, but I may have missed the odd comment!

 

I don't think we'll ever know the "tactics" behind the launch and it's timing, though a lot of pages were dedicated to that on this thread early on(!), but I don't see any TT120 stock being brought out other than Peco's (which seems on a par price wise) let alone cheaper than Hornby's. Perhaps accessories such as buildings, but there again Hornby's buildings are "ready to plant" whereas the others I've seen so far have been kits which require building/finishing. Are you talking about TT120 or 00?

 

Osborns are putting together a nice range of wagons in kit form, with half a dozen or so available already.  Just waiting now for the NER 20 ton hopper wagon to appear..

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, gc4946 said:

The J94 and 57XX pannier brought forward is very welcome news. 

We'll have to see which variants will appear, eg extended bunker on some J94s and/or provision for a cab/bunker to represent the later GWR 8750 panniers.

 

Talking to SK at Gaydon specifically about the J94 he said- low bunker, high bunker, conical fabricated chimney and Geisl ejector- though I did point out to him how difficult the latter would be.  I'll take one of my OO Geisl fitted Hornby J94s to show him the effect when I go to Warley with Bregenbach im Schwarzwald...

 

Les

 

[andrewshimmin]

18 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

SK has stated that "two 0-6-0s" — presumably the J94 and 57xx — are in tooling and expected to arrive early 2024, ahead of the Duchess. If that's so, then it's clear the schedule has changed (not that's a surprise); it would be helpful if they could give an idea of where in the production process each model is, in the way Bachmann used to do.

 

Interesting. Where did SK say this?

I wouldn't mind a J94 but I can't wait for the Duchess!

 

On the Duchess, the latest blog says: "the first samples of the Duchess Class arriving over the coming months this will be following the tooling process, which can again take several months". Not clear to me, but suggests this model is still due in early 2024.

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/west-coast-duchess

 

But all of these predictions should be taken with a pinch of salt, being a hostage to fortune!

Edited March 31, 2023 by andrewshimmin
Update on the Duchess.

[Roy L S]

1 hour ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

Interesting. Where did SK say this?

I wouldn't mind a J94 but I can't wait for the Duchess!

 

On the Duchess, the latest blog says: "the first samples of the Duchess Class arriving over the coming months this will be following the tooling process, which can again take several months". Not clear to me, but suggests this model is still due in early 2024.

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/west-coast-duchess

 

But all of these predictions should be taken with a pinch of salt, being a hostage to fortune!

Based on what other manufacturers openly tell us about lead times I wouldn't have thought early 2024 looks even remotely realistic. Looking at it practically, if the tooling for Duchess isn't even due to be started for a few months yet, then by the time that has been completed, test-shots produced and evaluated, corrections made and further evaluation/sign off, livery samples produced and evaluated, corrections made, final sign off, allocation a production slot, production undertaken and products shipped (about 6 weeks by sea), I would suggest late 2024 if not early 2025 looks more realistic.

[Roy L S]

12 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

There is a rather nice range of small diesel locos in the Piko range, some of which would pass for UK industrials.

 

Les

 

Hi Les

 

True, but for me the TT120 venture is a side project and on a limited budget. I don't really want to spend money on alternatives that aren't prototypically British.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

Roy

[Ravenser]

The "window-sill layout" comment is worth a little more comment.

 

That would have to be a small terminus/FY layout, or a shunting puzzle. My window-sills seem to be 3'9" long and 9"-12" deep

 

If you scale that up to 4mm , you are talking about a 6'6" x 18"-21" footprint, which means a small shunting layout , or a "cameo" minor branch terminus

 

We do not see that kind of layout done in N . For whatever reason. N seems to focus on "large layouts in medium sized spaces", and there seems to be a view that shunting is not appropriate in N

 

So I can definitely see a possible niche for a "small layout" subject to be done in a small scale, at which point it opens up the hobby to people who only have a very modest space for a model railway.

 

It's clear that quite a lot of folk do struggle to find even a 2m long space for a layout , so even a heavily-compressed small layout in 4mm becomes impractical for them. I can see where the references to "window sill layouts" are coming from and it is a sensible target for TT:120 . That means a good effective coupler and small locos that run well

 

(As far as J94 and 57xx are concerned, there was a comment from SK at the end of last year to the effect that two 0-6-0s had just gone out for toolmakers' quotes, and the Class 66 was expected to follow them in the New Year. The Duchess is clearly rather further back in the queue.  It's a pretty reasonable guess that the "two 0-6-0s" are the 57xx and J94)

[Barry Ten]

52 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

The "window-sill layout" comment is worth a little more comment.

 

 

We do not see that kind of layout done in N . For whatever reason. N seems to focus on "large layouts in medium sized spaces", and there seems to be a view that shunting is not appropriate in N

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping to provide a counter-example.

 

 

 

Wiith proper attention to tracklaying, and use of DG couplings and electromagnets, it seems to work reliably enough for my needs. At the moment the whole thing, including rudimentary fiddle yard, is just over 5 foot long so definitely falling within the window-sill footprint.

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Barry Ten

[meatloaf]

In the first TT talk SK alos said a terrier was on the way

[Porfuera]

17 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

(As far as J94 and 57xx are concerned, there was a comment from SK at the end of last year to the effect that two 0-6-0s had just gone out for toolmakers' quotes, and the Class 66 was expected to follow them in the New Year. The Duchess is clearly rather further back in the queue.  It's a pretty reasonable guess that the "two 0-6-0s" are the 57xx and J94)

 

The most recent comment that I recall was in the TT Talk at the end of January (at 33 minutes in) where SK said that there is one 0-6-0 already in tooling and another being prepared for tooling (whatever that means). However no update since then AFAICR and presumably still a long way to go from there as discussed earlier.

 

And given that the catalogue says "Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94, GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier" then it would seem unlikely that they suddenly decided to introduce a completely different pair of 0-6-0s.

 

That said, the J94 and 5700 were originally scheduled after the 9F and Castle (which are Phases 3 and 4) so there is the possibility that they could have brought another development forward - so still plenty of opportunity for speculation!

[Hobby]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'd have thought an 0-6-0T as being one of the easiest locos to design and tool, especially if it's inside frame and no outside cylinders. So maybe an easy fix if they want something quick to keep up momentum? Would also be good for the 3D body printing brigade!

[Porfuera]

42 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

In the first TT talk SK alos said a terrier was on the way

 

That was also in the TT Talk at the end of Jan - Terriers and Pecketts (at 1 hour 9 minutes), although it was a bit of a throwaway reply (as in "Oh! That's a good idea!") to a social media query. 

 

Along with the green 08 and (possible) green 08 shunting set mentioned in the same episode.

[Jeff Smith]

Do the A1, A3 and A4 share a common chassis?

[Jeff Smith]

4 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

Along with the green 08 and (possible) green 08 shunting set mentioned in the same episode.

Of course we don't know the logistics but I would have thought that the first two sets should have been a mainline steamer with coaches and a cheaper 0-6-0 shunter, steam or diesel, with half a dozen wagons.

[Porfuera]

29 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'd have thought an 0-6-0T as being one of the easiest locos to design and tool, especially if it's inside frame and no outside cylinders. So maybe an easy fix if they want something quick to keep up momentum? Would also be good for the 3D body printing brigade!

 

It would still take many months (or even more than a year?), though, depending on where they currently were with the design of it. And then presumably something else has to be bumped off the production schedule in order to fit it in. So probably not that quick a win. And I'm not sure they're all that concerned about the 3D print world, even if it would boost their sales a little.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Porfuera

[Porfuera]

32 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Of course we don't know the logistics but I would have thought that the first two sets should have been a mainline steamer with coaches and a cheaper 0-6-0 shunter, steam or diesel, with half a dozen wagons.

 

You do have to wonder about the mindset behind launching with two very similar sets, especially when they just seem to be churning out further similar examples as their subsequent locos. Perhaps they were expecting people to expand the sets to the 2-track oval and to just have two big steamers thundering around in opposite directions.

 

40 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Do the A1, A3 and A4 share a common chassis?

 

I'm no expert (far from it!) but they look similar although with some detail differences. Maybe there was a big cost saving in launching with two similar chassis, especially when they didn't know how well the takeup of the new UK outline was going to go.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Porfuera

[D9020 Nimbus]

5 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

Interesting. Where did SK say this?

On one of the TT:120 videos on the Hornby YouTube channel. The second one of the year. At that time, so he said, in answer to a question about 0-6-0s, that two 0-6-0s were now in tooling and the "Duchess" was just entering tooling, that the 0-6-0s were due early 2024 and the Duchess would follow.

In the first video of the year he'd stated that an 0-6-0 was just entering tooling and the Duchess was "out to tender" for tooling.

[D9020 Nimbus]

21 hours ago, Porfuera said:

Therefore I can't help thinking that if they tried to do this for every model then it would lead to even more disappointment. If Bachmann used to do this but don't do it any more then there's probably a good reason for that.

There is indeed. They no longer announce models until they are due within three months; production is either underway or already complete, so knowing the development stage is superfluous. However they do still follow the previous process for those models which were announced under the old system but not yet available (e.g. N gauge class 158, RNAD diesel in 009).

 

Notice that this isn't giving the time, just the development stage (although Bachmann do give times on the website; naturally, these are often missed).

[InTheTrainShed]

This is a page from Hornby’s TT120 club magazine , issue 1 - refers to shelf layouts (window ledge)

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by InTheTrainShed

[meatloaf]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

Of course we don't know the logistics but I would have thought that the first two sets should have been a mainline steamer with coaches and a cheaper 0-6-0 shunter, steam or diesel, with half a dozen wagons.

Im fully expecting one to show up in Argos as an exclusive with s small loco and a few wagons.

 

Also a small TXS set in 00 similar to the one they were designing on the TV program as they were adamant it had to be built to a price

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I'm hoping to provide a counter-example.

 

 

 

Wiith proper attention to tracklaying, and use of DG couplings and electromagnets, it seems to work reliably enough for my needs. At the moment the whole thing, including rudimentary fiddle yard, is just over 5 foot long so definitely falling within the window-sill footprint.

 

 

 

 

That does demonstrate fairly vividly that even a "small" layout requires a fair bit of space to do it authentically. 

 

That would equate to around 10' long in 4mm : I don't have 10' length available at home , and I suspect a lot of people are in a similar situation.

 

We've reached the point where even a modest "3 trains a day each way" branch terminus is too big to build at home in 4mm as far as most people are concerned. So there is a real opening for doing "small" layouts like this in a small scale

 

Just out of interest - N gauge or 2mm finescale?

[Roy L S]

38 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

On one of the TT:120 videos on the Hornby YouTube channel. The second one of the year. At that time, so he said, in answer to a question about 0-6-0s, that two 0-6-0s were now in tooling and the "Duchess" was just entering tooling, that the 0-6-0s were due early 2024 and the Duchess would follow.

In the first video of the year he'd stated that an 0-6-0 was just entering tooling and the Duchess was "out to tender" for tooling.

 

 

SK commented on a recent You-Tube channel (can't remember name) that 08s will arrive April, then changed it to April May (kinda maybe?) however the info I had from the Hornby Customer Service Team was that the 08 would arrive end May/early June. Issue 2 of the TT120 Club mag said it should have been with us by the time the mag was published!!!

 

SK is a salesperson, he will want to put the best "spin" he can on things which is all fine and dandy until inconsistencies start to emerge and things don't arrive. There is an old adage which is that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver...

[Barry Ten]

30 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

That would equate to around 10' long in 4mm : I don't have 10' length available at home , and I suspect a lot of people are in a similar situation.

 

We've reached the point where even a modest "3 trains a day each way" branch terminus is too big to build at home in 4mm as far as most people are concerned. So there is a real opening for doing "small" layouts like this in a small scale

 

Just out of interest - N gauge or 2mm finescale?

 

As it happens the layout is a near-copy of one I originally built in 4mm, and which was 11 feet long (but with a fiddle yard that was possibly a bit generous in relation to the rest). This one is N, but with Code 40 track from the Finetrax kits.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

SK commented on a recent You-Tube channel (can't remember name) that 08s will arrive April, then changed it to April May (kinda maybe?) however the info I had from the Hornby Customer Service Team was that the 08 would arrive end May/early June. Issue 2 of the TT120 Club mag said it should have been with us by the time the mag was published!!!

 

SK is a salesperson, he will want to put the best "spin" he can on things which is all fine and dandy until inconsistencies start to emerge and things don't arrive. There is an old adage which is that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver...

 

I pretty sure that was the Mactrains video because I also remember SK making the "April... April um... May" comment about the 08. And it makes me wonder - considering the length of time we've been talking about the 08s, how far away must those 0-6-0 tank engines be?

 

I keep telling myself it has only been a few months and that you can't expect too much too soon but I agree about the over-promising - I'd prefer them to be pessimistic and then I could feel pleasantly surprised if things occasionally turn up early, rather than being repeatedly disappointed by having things frequently postponed. But maybe that's just me.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Porfuera