Hornby announce TT:120

[rodshaw]

I also had trouble finding the mags at first. I hadn't received a reminder about the latest one. Then I renewed my membership (at zero cost), signed in afresh, then had to click another sign in button to see the mags. But at least now I know! It's always good to read about TT.

Maybe now I've renewed I'll get an automatic email reminder for the next issue.

[teletougos]

On 02/01/2024 at 21:44, Haymarket47 said:

Desperation, really?I think you’ve over egged that pudding 😂🤣

What I mean, is another part of the company trying to use interest in TT , to try to flog OO stuff. I keep hearing they have lots of unsold stuff. And being a big company, that they sometimes do things which seem to be in conflict or contradictory. 

[Porfuera]

Not just in 00 - I ordered one of the HST power car packs and some Mk3 coaches the other day and every time I added an item to the basket, the website suggested that I might want a Pullman to go with them, which was mildly annoying at the time 😄

[PeterStiles]

19 hours ago, Porfuera said:

annoying at the time 😄

Do you want fries with that?

[Mike Harvey]

Arnold’s 2024 combined N and TT catalog shows several new TT items including container and cereal wagons.

 

TT from page 110 onwards:- https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/6517/0436/6501/Catalogo_2024_Arnold_N-TT_WEB.pdf

 

[andrewshimmin]

3 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Arnold’s 2024 combined N and TT catalog shows several new TT items including container and cereal wagons.

 

TT from page 110 onwards:- https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/6517/0436/6501/Catalogo_2024_Arnold_N-TT_WEB.pdf

 

The Happy Lloyd container looks good.

It's probably a good thing most of their range is N not TT or I'd be very broke!

Edited January 6 by andrewshimmin
Added comment about N range

[Legend]

23 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Arnold’s 2024 combined N and TT catalog shows several new TT items including container and cereal wagons.

 

TT from page 110 onwards:- https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/6517/0436/6501/Catalogo_2024_Arnold_N-TT_WEB.pdf

 

Quite a publication . I knew Arnold were once big but thought they had slimmed down , I was impressed by the range  in N . I like the format too , new items followed by a section “already available” . Maybe Hornby will follow this format . 

Edited January 7 by Legend
Crap typing

[RyanN91]

I know there is a planned Cross Country XC HST train set to arrive in a future phase. But there was erroneous information when phase 1 was launched and now I want to see it actually being a train set! a Hornby TT:120 BR HST Train set. Two BR Class 43 power cars in original BR Blue Yellow livery with 2 x BR MK3 coaches.  1x Transformer, 1x Controller, 1x Rerailer, 1x 3rd Radius Starter Oval with Track Pack 1. 

[Jeff Smith]

When you wish upon a star.............

[J-Lewis]

9 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Arnold’s 2024 combined N and TT catalog shows several new TT items including container and cereal wagons.

 

TT from page 110 onwards:- https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/6517/0436/6501/Catalogo_2024_Arnold_N-TT_WEB.pdf

 

New liveries for the container wagon look good.  Strange there is no mention of the Arnold Class 66?   Perhaps it’s slipped to 2025?  There was supposed to be an Arnold Class 65 set with three container wagons releasing this year.

Edited January 6 by J-Lewis
Spulling

[GenericRMWebUsername]

 

7 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

New liveries for the container wagon look good.  Strange there is no mention of the Arnold Class 66?   Perhaps it’s slipped to 2025?  There was supposed to be an Arnold Class 65 set with three container wagons releasing this year.

I was also pretty surprised by omission of the Class 66. In terms of TT120, Arnold's range was underwhelming. I want to make it clear that I'm not criticizing the entirety of the range. Both the Hornby International HO range and Arnold's N scale had a variety of great additions. From an HO and N perspective I think lots of people will be happy. For Spanish and Italian HO fans who have fewer options than British or German modelers, continued investment in Rivarossi and Electrotren are absolutely essential. I'd never begrudge Hornby taking care of their fans in those countries. Those markets deserve new tooling projects. 

 

But from a strictly TT standpoint, this was not a good year. For reference, here are a list of the TT toolings that Arnold owns. The following is the list to best of my knowledge. It does not account for tooling updates. Beside each tooling is the year it was first announced. Here it is:

 

-Dopplestock wagons (2013) 

-E251/DB 171 (2013)

-Kö/Köf II Shunting locomotive (2013)

-DR Class 95 (2014)

-ASF Accumulator Shunting Locomotive (2014)

-Self discharging ballast wagons (2015)

-Rekowagen (2020)

-Ferry Wagon (2020)

-DR Class 58 (2022)

-Vossloh DE 18 (2023)

-Sffgmss (2023) 

-Uapps/Uagps (2023)

-Class 66 (2023)

 

2023 was an excellent year for Arnold TT announcements. While not every product shipped in 2023, the firm commitment to TT represented by the 2023 range was significant. Some might quibble with the Class 66, but 2023 we got word of an Arnold Class 66 set, and we also got confirmation European liveried TT Class 66s were coming with traction tires. I feel comfortable saying we got four new toolings in the 2023 range. 2023's range catalogue featured 29 TT pieces of rolling stock, not including the two train sets. 

 

What about 2024? Unfortunately, we did not see any new tooling projects announced. The total number of TT pieces of rolling stock in the 2024 range fell to 22. And there was no mention of the train sets. The new container wagons and new liveries are welcome. But overall it almost seemed like a step backwards. 

 

This range is reminding me of an interview with the Hornby TT120 brand manager. Here is the relevant excerpt:

 

Editor: Are there plans to add continental TT:120 items to the range, for example those from Arnold?

 

Sarah: When launching Hornby TT:120, there was a conscious decision to create as much of a universally compatible system as possible hence using the 1:120 scale as opposed to the old Tri- ang scale of 1:101.6.

 

Although we are currently concentrating on expanding the range based on UK locomotives as a priority, the natural progression will be to expand the range to include European models.

 

Interestingly, the Hornby TT:120 range is being sold by our European team so there is a lot of interest in UK locomotives.

 

This is notable. She does not talk about cross-promoting Arnold products. She is saying the "natural progression" for Hornby TT120 is to include European models. Could it be that Arnold TT120 is going to be absorbed into the Hornby TT120 brand? I think that possibility seems more likely with this range launch. It's not an absurd proposition either. That way Arnold can be the N-Scale brand. Hornby TT120 can be the the TT brand.  Instead of the European liveried Class 66s being launched under Arnold's banner, maybe we'll see them as part Hornby's TT range. 

 

It's also possible this is just a weak year and next year will be better. I'll be curious to see what comes next!

 

[Hobby]

13 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

New liveries for the container wagon look good.  Strange there is no mention of the Arnold Class 66?   Perhaps it’s slipped to 2025?  There was supposed to be an Arnold Class 65 set with three container wagons releasing this year.

 

As it's a Hornby model which Arnold will be marketing in European liveries it's not surprising that they wouldn't pre-empt any Hornby announcement which as we know has been put back to April. I'd expect any announcement on the Arnold version to come at the same time as the Hornby one.

[J-Lewis]

42 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

As it's a Hornby model which Arnold will be marketing in European liveries it's not surprising that they wouldn't pre-empt any Hornby announcement which as we know has been put back to April. I'd expect any announcement on the Arnold version to come at the same time as the Hornby one.

The Arnold version is a different model.  It’s been shown in the ‘parts samples’ pictures as part of the TT updates.  The Arnold model has Arnold branding on the fuel tank and European details like the large box aircon and different roof horns etc.  It’s not just a different livery on the Hornby model, it will be an Arnold product.

 

The Hornby one is announced already and will be released this spring, so there doesn’t appear to be any reason to hold back on announcing the Arnold version unless it’s delayed until 2025?

[Les1952]

5 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

 

I was also pretty surprised by omission of the Class 66. In terms of TT120, Arnold's range was underwhelming. I want to make it clear that I'm not criticizing the entirety of the range. Both the Hornby International HO range and Arnold's N scale had a variety of great additions. From an HO and N perspective I think lots of people will be happy. For Spanish and Italian HO fans who have fewer options than British or German modelers, continued investment in Rivarossi and Electrotren are absolutely essential. I'd never begrudge Hornby taking care of their fans in those countries. Those markets deserve new tooling projects. 

 

But from a strictly TT standpoint, this was not a good year. For reference, here are a list of the TT toolings that Arnold owns. The following is the list to best of my knowledge. It does not account for tooling updates. Beside each tooling is the year it was first announced. Here it is:

 

-Dopplestock wagons (2013) 

-E251/DB 171 (2013)

-Kö/Köf II Shunting locomotive (2013)

-DR Class 95 (2014)

-ASF Accumulator Shunting Locomotive (2014)

-Self discharging ballast wagons (2015)

-Rekowagen (2020)

-Ferry Wagon (2020)

-DR Class 58 (2022)

-Vossloh DE 18 (2023)

-Sffgmss (2023) 

-Uapps/Uagps (2023)

-Class 66 (2023)

 

2023 was an excellent year for Arnold TT announcements. While not every product shipped in 2023, the firm commitment to TT represented by the 2023 range was significant. Some might quibble with the Class 66, but 2023 we got word of an Arnold Class 66 set, and we also got confirmation European liveried TT Class 66s were coming with traction tires. I feel comfortable saying we got four new toolings in the 2023 range. 2023's range catalogue featured 29 TT pieces of rolling stock, not including the two train sets. 

 

What about 2024? Unfortunately, we did not see any new tooling projects announced. The total number of TT pieces of rolling stock in the 2024 range fell to 22. And there was no mention of the train sets. The new container wagons and new liveries are welcome. But overall it almost seemed like a step backwards. 

 

This range is reminding me of an interview with the Hornby TT120 brand manager. Here is the relevant excerpt:

 

Editor: Are there plans to add continental TT:120 items to the range, for example those from Arnold?

 

Sarah: When launching Hornby TT:120, there was a conscious decision to create as much of a universally compatible system as possible hence using the 1:120 scale as opposed to the old Tri- ang scale of 1:101.6.

 

Although we are currently concentrating on expanding the range based on UK locomotives as a priority, the natural progression will be to expand the range to include European models.

 

Interestingly, the Hornby TT:120 range is being sold by our European team so there is a lot of interest in UK locomotives.

 

This is notable. She does not talk about cross-promoting Arnold products. She is saying the "natural progression" for Hornby TT120 is to include European models. Could it be that Arnold TT120 is going to be absorbed into the Hornby TT120 brand? I think that possibility seems more likely with this range launch. It's not an absurd proposition either. That way Arnold can be the N-Scale brand. Hornby TT120 can be the the TT brand.  Instead of the European liveried Class 66s being launched under Arnold's banner, maybe we'll see them as part Hornby's TT range. 

 

It's also possible this is just a weak year and next year will be better. I'll be curious to see what comes next!

 

 

The Class 66 will be in Hornby's April announcements, so I would expect that there would be nothing from Arnold about their version of it this side of the Nurnberg Toy Fair.

 

Hornby Hobbies are there, on stands B31 and C30 in Hall 7A.

Dates are 30th January to 3rd February.

 

Les

 

[Porfuera]

46 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

The Arnold version is a different model.  It’s been shown in the ‘parts samples’ pictures as part of the TT updates.  The Arnold model has Arnold branding on the fuel tank and European details like the large box aircon and different roof horns etc.  It’s not just a different livery on the Hornby model, it will be an Arnold product.

 

The Hornby one is announced already and will be released this spring, so there doesn’t appear to be any reason to hold back on announcing the Arnold version unless it’s delayed until 2025?

 

Surely it is the same model but with different branding and packaging - it was known as "badge engineering" when the UK motor industry used to do it decades ago i.e. the same car but with different badges for the different marques with their slight detail differences.

 

It wouldn't make economic sense for Hornby and Arnold to each do their own design for the same loco. I'm guessing it is one of those "design clever" things where they are designing all the variants into the same basic model.

 

In fact I seem to recall that in one of the early livestreams, SK said that the UK release of the 66 had been held up because one of their European partners had sent Hornby some new details of European variant(s) that needed to be incorporated into the overall design.

[Hobby]

Thanks, Neil, that's why i said what I did!

[J-Lewis]

3 hours ago, Porfuera said:

It wouldn't make economic sense for Hornby and Arnold to each do their own design for the same loco. I'm guessing it is one of those "design clever" things where they are designing all the variants into the same basic model.

Yes it’s exactly this.  Hornby and Arnold are doing their own badge versions but it’s a co-development, they are separate SKUs so UK one releases as Hornby and the European one with Euro liveries and details will be Arnold branded on the base of the fuel tank, in Arnold packaging and sold via the Arnold website.

 

Therefore there is nothing preventing the announcement of the Arnold version and it is odd that it has not been featured in the 2024 range catalogue despite being shown in the Hornby TT blog update nearly two months ago?

[moawkwrd]

Even if it was there with the same level of information as in the TT:120 catalogue but showing European liveries that will be available it would make more sense. To not mention it at all is peculiar, particularly if it’s due to be released this year. 
 

Suggests that the continental version will be coming much later than the UK model, assuming that isn’t delayed as well. Phase 1 & 2 items slipping to 2025 and beyond is killing enthusiasm about the whole project, particularly for new modellers brought back into the hobby by TT:120 like myself. 

Edited January 7 by moawkwrd

[Chris116]

Looking back to the introduction of TT3 back in 1957 it is interesting to see how the range was introduced and expanded.

 

1957 - 3F and Castle

1958 - no new locos

1959 - 08, 31 and Merchant Navy

1960 - Britannia

1961 - Prairie

1962 - no new locos

1963 - 104 DMU

 

The TT120 introduction looks to be progressing at a similar pace but under the spotlight of the internet.

 

[Hobby]

Based on that they are a year or two ahead. Three locos within first year. If they do get the 50 and HST out this year they'll still be ahead by a year.

 

It's the internet that's the difference, back then there was nowhere for modellers to vent their frustration other than the magazines which probably wouldn't have bothered printing the letter but just told them to be patient!! Such is progress... Or not... 😉

[GenericRMWebUsername]

My standing theory on why we've seen the rollout not go as rapidly is due to pre-booking manufacturing slots 12-18 months out. One key thing Simon said in early 2023 was the train sets they initially ordered were expected to last for like a year. Instead, they sold out in a few weeks. Hornby was then faced with a dilemma. Either they could continue to release new runs of their A1/A3 and A4 TT locomotives, or they could use the production slots to release new locomotives and rolling stock. If they had decided to continue to release new products we would have a bigger range, but there would be severe shortages as everyone attempted to compete for the few models released. The strategy they chose was to focus all their production capacity on making their existing products. Now the TT120 market in Britain is reaching saturation of the current A1/A3 and A4s. This is actually good. People are getting the products they want. 

 

Hornby first realized how successful TT120 was in early 2023. That was when Simon began to say that the response had far exceeded expectations. The management letters from the summer share the same sentiment. My theory is that they booked additional production slots in the Spring/Summer of 2023 in order to ramp TT120 production drastically. 12-18 months after the Spring/Summer of 2023 is mid year 2024. April is the logical time to announce new inventory in order to set the stage for the rest of the year. 

[J-Lewis]

4 minutes ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

Hornby was then faced with a dilemma. Either they could continue to release new runs of their A1/A3 and A4 TT locomotives, or they could use the production slots to release new locomotives and rolling stock. The strategy they chose was to focus all their production capacity on making their existing products. Now the TT120 market in Britain is reaching saturation of the current A1/A3 and A4s.

I’ve seen this theory mentioned before and it makes a lot of sense.  The sets used up the production slots originally intended for phase 2,3 & 4.

 

April will be the test of this theory.  If there are firm release dates for the remaining locos (Class 31,37,47 etc) and the prices remain at current levels then I suspect all will be forgiven, especially if those much needed tank engines are part of the 2024 lineup.

 

Certainly with 10,000 plus sets purchased already there must be a good demand built up for the diversity of those later phases, and nobody can deny it’s been a very successful launch.

[Les1952]

6 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

Yes it’s exactly this.  Hornby and Arnold are doing their own badge versions but it’s a co-development, they are separate SKUs so UK one releases as Hornby and the European one with Euro liveries and details will be Arnold branded on the base of the fuel tank, in Arnold packaging and sold via the Arnold website.

 

Therefore there is nothing preventing the announcement of the Arnold version and it is odd that it has not been featured in the 2024 range catalogue despite being shown in the Hornby TT blog update nearly two months ago?

 

Many Continental manufacturers issue catalogues then a seperate new items catalogue- last year's Fleischmann "Neuheiten" catalogue was over 70 pages, in N gauge only.....

 

Les

[J-Lewis]

49 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Many Continental manufacturers issue catalogues then a seperate new items catalogue

It might be that Les, although there were some new items listed in the Arnold 2024 catalogue so it’s hard to know for sure.  We shall see what’s announced later in the year I guess.

[Mike Harvey]

10 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

It might be that Les, although there were some new items listed in the Arnold 2024 catalogue so it’s hard to know for sure.  We shall see what’s announced later in the year I guess.

The Arnold document I linked a few days back was their 2024 new items leaflet. It contains announced but so far undelivered items from earlier years and NEW items for 2024 which are marked NEW, It also shows in stock items but not 2023 (or earlier) new items which have already sold out. So the reader knows what is in stock and what is still to come.