Hornby announce TT:120

[teletougos]

4 hours ago, natterjack said:

Not so easy when the supply point is half way 'round the World. I have thoughts of Ukraine and Poland and their proven talents in model production.

Not a bad idea. An outfit in Ukraine called RailTT did a steel boxcar and a wood sided one for TT scale. Unfortunately they were a bit overscale, and as the wood sided one was a copy of an HO one which I guess he had handy, it turned out the prototype was only useful for Canada. But the masters and molding itself was pretty reasonable. 

 

A Russian outfit also did an etched SD45. 

[natterjack]

3 hours ago, teletougos said:

A Russian outfit also did an etched SD45. 

A number of the traditionally Russia based modelling suppliers now have addresses in neighbouring countries. I wonder why???

[teletougos]

21 hours ago, natterjack said:

A number of the traditionally Russia based modelling suppliers now have addresses in neighbouring countries. I wonder why???

 

Not this one. The etch was a bit off when folded up, particularly round the cab, and didn't sell so well. He didn't do more stuff. But it showed what could be done.

[britishcolumbian]

On 18/02/2024 at 19:52, teletougos said:

 

Not this one. The etch was a bit off when folded up, particularly round the cab, and didn't sell so well. He didn't do more stuff. But it showed what could be done.

I paid a 50% deposit (250 Euro) for an SD45 RTR (built and painted) from Art+Detail using the Norkin etch and then never heard back about it... still sour about that.

[teletougos]

On 20/02/2024 at 12:26, britishcolumbian said:

I paid a 50% deposit (250 Euro) for an SD45 RTR (built and painted) from Art+Detail using the Norkin etch and then never heard back about it... still sour about that.

I am sorry to hear that. But thank you for the heads-up. 

[britishcolumbian]

16 hours ago, teletougos said:

I am sorry to hear that. But thank you for the heads-up. 

But, others have reported good interactions with him (Art+Detail), so I don't know. Your call... but I won't deal directly with him, which is unfortunate since he does have some interesting things from time to time and tends to focus on Canadian subjects.

[andrewshimmin]

Personally, I'm not bothered about new announcements.

I'd just quite like to hear a commitment to what was already announced, and perhaps an idea of timescale (no more definite than "hopefully this year", "in a year or two" or "a few years away"). That would give me confidence that the previously announced plans are still going, and that I can invest (i.e. pay money to buy toy trains) with confidence that the range is not going to disappear.

(I don't think it will disappear, but it would be nice to hear someone say so!)

However I think a little bit more about the future "phases" (even without the word) would be welcome. For example, I've got an LNER garter blue A4, partly because eventually Gresley carriages were promised. There have even been samples seen at shoes. It would be nice to know if these are a) cancelled b) coming but not for several years yet or c) fairly imminent.

It's possible Hornby don't want to admit too much about delays because they are worried people will spend elsewhere instead of waiting? Just guessing.

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

Personally, I'm not bothered about new announcements.

I'd just quite like to hear a commitment to what was already announced, and perhaps an idea of timescale (no more definite than "hopefully this year", "in a year or two" or "a few years away"). That would give me confidence that the previously announced plans are still going, and that I can invest (i.e. pay money to buy toy trains) with confidence that the range is not going to disappear.

(I don't think it will disappear, but it would be nice to hear someone say so!)

However I think a little bit more about the future "phases" (even without the word) would be welcome. For example, I've got an LNER garter blue A4, partly because eventually Gresley carriages were promised. There have even been samples seen at shoes. It would be nice to know if these are a) cancelled b) coming but not for several years yet or c) fairly imminent.

It's possible Hornby don't want to admit too much about delays because they are worried people will spend elsewhere instead of waiting? Just guessing.

I just think Hornby are hostages to fortune. The lack of recovery in the Chinese economy after the Covid crisis and the delay to shipping caused by the Houthi attacks on Red Sea shipping can't help. Some have suggested that the public's response to TT:120 exceeded Hornby's expectations resulting in production slots for planned new items being allocated to meet demand for existing models. Hornby have probably realised that they can't accurately forecast future releases because they just don't know what is round the next corner. (Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi). I share your frustration though.

[Jeff Smith]

One problem of course with model trains is that RTR versions are very labour intensive - the tooling and parts manufacturing could probably be done in the UK -and is done by Peco, Airfix, and many smaller kit and parts manufacturers.  It's surely the assembly that makes it uneconomic to do in the UK......

[RyanN91]

There are some Railway essentials line side accessories currently missing from the Hornby TT:120 range which I'd love to see introduced in phase 2 or onwards. Railway semaphore signals, home signal, home distant, junction distant junction home, single level crossing and a double level crossing with gates and modern barriers and trackside accessories with huts, telegraph poles, water crane, loading gauge, whistle sign and mile and gradient posts.

[natterjack]

29 minutes ago, RyanN91 said:

There are some Railway essentials

Much of what you list is ripe for the cottage/3D print industry and plenty of this sort of detail is beginning to appear (aside from using existing over-scale N Gauge options). I'd far rather that Hornby concentrate of the delivery of locomotives and rolling stock.

[BachelorBoy]

8 hours ago, MartinRS said:

I just think Hornby are hostages to fortune. The lack of recovery in the Chinese economy after the Covid crisis and the delay to shipping caused by the Houthi attacks on Red Sea shipping can't help. 

 

Surely China's economic slowdown works in Hornby's favour.

 

Industry is slowing down. Demand in general for Chinese exports is down. The prices manufacturers can get for their products have been falling for eighteen months or so. Consumer inflation is negarive ... in other words, deflation, so Beijing is trying to stimulate the economy and keep interest rates low: that means the currency is weak.

 

That all gives Hornby a lot more bargaining power.

 

[Les1952]

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

One problem of course with model trains is that RTR versions are very labour intensive - the tooling and parts manufacturing could probably be done in the UK -and is done by Peco, Airfix, and many smaller kit and parts manufacturers.  It's surely the assembly that makes it uneconomic to do in the UK......

 

We demand so much detail and so much of it is extremely delicate and falls off at the first heavy shunt on the layout.  There are a lot of parts which, if placed in a bag for those whose models stay in the box unused (a lot) or in a showcase could lower the assembly cost significantly.

 

I'm thinking in particular recently of scouring a 24X12 club layout for Deltic bogie securing chains and door bangers from open wagons, incidentally both from Accurascale....

 

Les

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Surely China's economic slowdown works in Hornby's favour.

 

Industry is slowing down. Demand in general for Chinese exports is down. The prices manufacturers can get for their products have been falling for eighteen months or so. Consumer inflation is negarive ... in other words, deflation, so Beijing is trying to stimulate the economy and keep interest rates low: that means the currency is weak.

 

That all gives Hornby a lot more bargaining power.

 

 

It doesn't, however, give more bargaining power in shipping, where the semi-closure of the Panama Canal and the consequent lengthy detours, plus the Houthi attacks affecting access to the Suez Canal and lengthy diversions for that mean a lot of ships in the wrong place, and even more importantly a big shortage of containers in China.

 

Les

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, natterjack said:

Much of what you list is ripe for the cottage/3D print industry and plenty of this sort of detail is beginning to appear (aside from using existing over-scale N Gauge options). I'd far rather that Hornby concentrate of the delivery of locomotives and rolling stock.

 

I agree with that, and someone on FB has already made some lower quadrants. It's more something that Peco would do of the major manufacturers but hasn't done yet though I'm sure they said they would. I just need upper quadrants! Some people on FB have used N scale ones (Dapol?) but they don't look very good in my eyes, same as using Metcalf N which some people seem quite happy with.

[Flying Pig]

42 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

Deltic bogie securing chains

 

They're actually part of the handbrake linkage.  Which doesn't make them less of a nuisance on the model of course.

 

 

[Flying Pig]

39 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I agree with that, and someone on FB has already made some lower quadrants. It's more something that Peco would do of the major manufacturers but hasn't done yet though I'm sure they said they would. I just need upper quadrants! Some people on FB have used N scale ones (Dapol?) but they don't look very good in my eyes, same as using Metcalf N which some people seem quite happy with.

 

Maybe try Wizard Models who have the MSE signal parts.  It might be possible to reduce the etchings to 1:120 if there was enough interest.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

We demand so much detail and so much of it is extremely delicate and falls off at the first heavy shunt on the layout.  There are a lot of parts which, if placed in a bag for those whose models stay in the box unused (a lot) or in a showcase could lower the assembly cost significantly.

 

I'm thinking in particular recently of scouring a 24X12 club layout for Deltic bogie securing chains and door bangers from open wagons, incidentally both from Accurascale....

 

Les

 

Didn't everyone complain when Vi Trains did that though?

 

Great for modellers*, but those that wanted them finished out of the box really did kick up a fuss and the retailers struggled to sell them. Pity they aren't still available.

 

 

*Especially for the fact you got lots of extras that you could use on other locos

 

 

Jason

[Hobby]

Here's me thinking that "Railroad" models were just the simple ones! I suspect most people would be quite happy with railroad levels of detail, even they are far more detailed than we had in the 50s-70s, then the manufacturer could sell the extra detailing separately! I rather think that it's DCC that seems to be bumping up the costs these days, though...

Edited February 23 by Hobby

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Here's me thinking that "Railroad" models were just the simple ones! I suspect most people would be quite happy with railroad levels of detail, even they are far more detailed than we had in the 50s-70s, then the manufacturer could sell the extra detailing separately! I rather think that it's DCC that seems to be bumping up the costs these days, though...

 

As I'm saying, nobody bought them. The actual buyers want them highly detailed and full of gizmos.

 

It's the same when people keep asking for models without numbers so they can do it themselves. Hattons had shelves full of numberless Heljan Class 47s they couldn't get rid off!

 

And it's certainly not the fact it's Class 47 that is the problem. Look how quickly all those top range £350 Bachmann ones sold....

 

 

Jason

[Hobby]

People are still buying Hornby's Railroad range... Railroad gives you some detail and is numbered/named but not the level of detail of the rest of the range. Granted people are still buying the expensive stuff, but perhaps that's because there isn't a railroad version. There's a market for both ends of the detailing/cost scale, it depends on who you ask whether the amount of detail is enough or too much. On RMWeb I'd expect the former to be more popular, the same for collectors, but there are lots of people out there who don't want of need the e level of detail we see on a lot of current offerings. Horses for courses.

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's the same when people keep asking for models without numbers so they can do it themselves. Hattons had shelves full of numberless Heljan Class 47s they couldn't get rid off!

I asked SK when he was still at Hornby whether the TT120 Pullmans might be available un-named and he cited a similar experience when Hornby tried it in OO. Those who care to fettle their own stock may be vocal but do not seem to figure greatly in the actual mass marketplace.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, natterjack said:

I asked SK when he was still at Hornby whether the TT120 Pullmans might be available un-named and he cited a similar experience when Hornby tried it in OO. Those who care to fettle their own stock may be vocal but do not seem to figure greatly in the actual mass marketplace.

And how many ever do? 

I've recently acquired some very nice all steel coaches for a layout set in about 1960. They're marked for 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes but third class was abolished in June 1956 so of course I'm going to re-letter them  (maybe, one day, when I get around to !)  

Edited February 23 by Pacific231G

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

People are still buying Hornby's Railroad range... Railroad gives you some detail and is numbered/named but not the level of detail of the rest of the range. Granted people are still buying the expensive stuff, but perhaps that's because there isn't a railroad version. There's a market for both ends of the detailing/cost scale, it depends on who you ask whether the amount of detail is enough or too much. On RMWeb I'd expect the former to be more popular, the same for collectors, but there are lots of people out there who don't want of need the e level of detail we see on a lot of current offerings. Horses for courses.

 

I'm talking about the Vi Trains packs with all the detailing in bags, not Hornby Railroad models. Very different things. 

 

Vi Trains were more akin to much better detailed Lima and not far off the standard of the Bachmann models at the time. In fact many modellers preferred them to Bachmann.

 

Notice they don't even have handrails? You had to fit them yourself!

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/2266/vitrains_oo_class_47?instock=true&onorder=true&soldout=true

 

In fact the chassis fitted the Lima model which betrays it's origins. There were rumours at the time that they were meant to be the new versions of Lima Class 37 and 47, but Lima went out of business and was then taken over by Hornby before they were released.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/32087/vitrains_complete_replacement_chassis_unit_for_lima_class_47/stockdetail

 

 

Jason

[MartinRS]

13 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Surely China's economic slowdown works in Hornby's favour.

 

Industry is slowing down. Demand in general for Chinese exports is down. The prices manufacturers can get for their products have been falling for eighteen months or so. Consumer inflation is negarive ... in other words, deflation, so Beijing is trying to stimulate the economy and keep interest rates low: that means the currency is weak.

 

That all gives Hornby a lot more bargaining power.

 

The level of demand within the domestic Chinese economy post Covid has been slowing down due to fears over the unsustainable scenario in the debt ridden property sector and fears of a deflationary cycle. Generally such cycles result in reduced investment in capacity, a halt to recruitment by employers which has the effect of reducing existing capacity as people leaving employment are not replaced. The skewed demographics of China, the result of the past two child policy, is also having an effect on the availability of labour plus the reported reluctance new entrants into the labour market to take-up factory jobs. To quote Reuters, The rejection of grinding factory work by Zhu (a worker) and other Chinese in their 20s and 30s is contributing to a deepening labour shortage that is frustrating manufacturers in China, which produces a third of the goods consumed globally. Despite about 18% of Chinese aged 16-24 being unemployed at the end of 2022 over 80% of Chinese manufacturers reported under-staffing by between 10% to 30% of their workforce.

 

Investigations by US, UK and EU governments into unfair subsidies of Chinese exports across a wide range of products such as excavators, electric vehicles, trains (real ones, not the Hornby models), can't help the overall feeling within China that demand is falling, no matter how many Hornby 16T mineral wagons I want!

 

Sentiment about the future of the Chinese economy is not helped by the refusal of the Beijing authorities to step-in and to stimulus the economy as they have done so in the past, nor has Moody's downgrading of the Chinese economy.

 

The US prohibitions on investment in certain sectors of the Chinese economy can't help the overall sentiment that the Chinese economy is faltering, with growth down substantially from the double digit increase of the  early 2000s. The Chinese banks have invested substantially in the property sector in the past and are probably reluctant to take-on investment in new manufacturing capacity, despite the CCP encouraging them to do so. Most local authorities are within China are also on the verge of bankruptcy having been 'encouraged' to invest heavily in that sector by the CCP.

 

Does the present complex state of the Chinese economy give Hornby a lot more bargaining power? Without getting into a discussion as to whether Hornby are a large UK manufacturer I don't see them as having much, if any leverage with individual Chinese manufacturers without offering to pay more for production slots, whatever the exchange rate. They are in competition for those same production slots with many other Western companies.

Edited February 23 by MartinRS
De-italitlicize my insertion in quotation