Unrebuilt West Country

[Paul_sterling]

48 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The valve gear etc is rather different, I believe. 

It is, Yes. However valve gear is an add on to the fundamental bulk of the chassis, hardly a hard stop on making a common use unit. 

 

Paul. 

[Mallard60022]

2 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

It is, Yes. However valve gear is an add on to the fundamental bulk of the chassis, hardly a hard stop on making a common use unit. 

 

Paul. 

To our eyes maybe. To the Accountant's eyes, maybe not so without quite a spend.

Phil

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Nope. Original and 'Modified'! Sorry!

P

I'll happily be corrected by those who were there 'in the day' as it were but I do try to be careful about these things. So according to the Ian Allan Combined Volume 1963  entry for the WC & BB 4-6-2 'Introduced 1957, Rebuilt with Walschaerts valve gear, modified details and air-smoothed casing removed'  - I'd argue 'rebuilt' is the key descriptor here. 

[Mallard60022]

12 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I'll happily be corrected by those who were there 'in the day' as it were but I do try to be careful about these things. So according to the Ian Allan Combined Volume 1963  entry for the WC & BB 4-6-2 'Introduced 1957, Rebuilt with Walschaerts valve gear, modified details and air-smoothed casing removed'  - I'd argue 'rebuilt' is the key descriptor here. 

Fine and as I said, we all call them that. However the official term at the Time was Modified Pacific. That description is from the ABC and that's how the term became popular with spotters. 

It's like lots of things, enthusiasts use a term as it was popular. 

As a spotty 13 year old, I never used to shout Modified, except for the later GWR Hall Class. It was always "Rebuilt" for a Modified Spam. Crews didn't call them Spams either. Merchants were Packets and Light Pacifics were WC's (even the B of B's!)

Such larks and thus named due to the sound of the Injectors that sounded like an old type Toilet Cistern filling up.

Phil

[30368]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

just boxed up the U1

Looking forward to it Phil.

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[30368]

22 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

As a spotty 13 year old, I never used to shout Modified, except for the later GWR Hall Class. It was always "Rebuilt" for a Modified Spam. Crews didn't call them Spams either. Merchants were Packets and Light Pacifics were WC's (even the B of B's!)

The local term for the original WC/BBs was "flat-top". I must have seen an original MN rushing through Woking but can't remember any numbers but they would have been "flat-tops" too.

The others were modifieds.

Kind regards,

 

30368.

[ColinB]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The valve gear etc is rather different, I believe. 

You won't believe it but the unrebuilt is a subset of the rebuilt, the reason I know that is when I couldn't get the unrebuilt valve gear, I bought the rebuilt valve gear and modified it. If you think about it if Hornby have modelled both models correctly then it should fit as the wheel spacings will be the same. On the real locos it was the same chassis. Now the unrebuilt Merchant Navy is completely different as I found out when I tried to do the same trick.

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

You won't believe it but the unrebuilt is a subset of the rebuilt, the reason I know that is when I couldn't get the unrebuilt valve gear, I bought the rebuilt valve gear and modified it. If you think about it if Hornby have modelled both models correctly then it should fit as the wheel spacings will be the same. On the real locos it was the same chassis. Now the unrebuilt Merchant Navy is completely different as I found out when I tried to do the same trick.

Lendons of Cardiff usually have both types for Packets. Can't remember if they have both for WCs.

Phil

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Lendons of Cardiff usually have both types for Packets. Can't remember if they have both for WCs.

Phil

The valve gear for the unrebuilt ones was unobtainable, Lendons is always my first port of call and they didn't have them when I was looking, hence why I used the rebuilt version. They may well have them now as Hornby have just released a new batch of Locos.

[30368]

There is a Comet WC/BB valve gear fret that caters for both Original and Rebuilt. Available from Wizard Models I think.

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[adb968008]

Imo given their popularity, and tooling age, the BOB/ WC and MN are ripe for picking by another manufacturer.

 

The rebuilt WC with the horizontal slice through the centre of its boiler is pretty poor in 2023. The moulding on the front end of the rebuilt MN also looks more 1990’s than 2020’s.

 

As side of the original MN this tooling suite is old.

i’m surprised Hornby did the Duchess and Princess before upgrading these.

 

I’m pretty convinced if Hornby doesnt upgrade them, someone else will.. they are simply too popular.

 

 

 

[ColinB]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Imo given their popularity, and tooling age, the BOB/ WC and MN are ripe for picking by another manufacturer.

 

The rebuilt WC with the horizontal slice through the centre of its boiler is pretty poor in 2023. The moulding on the front end of the rebuilt MN also looks more 1990’s than 2020’s.

 

As side of the original MN this tooling suite is old.

i’m surprised Hornby did the Duchess and Princess before upgrading these.

 

I’m pretty convinced if Hornby doesnt upgrade them, someone else will.. they are simply too popular.

 

 

 

I think as someone mentioned earlier Hornby treats them as a cash cow. I don't think the design has changed much since the late 1980s. They have added a DCC socket in the tender which is interesting, as it about the only one of their models where there is more than enough room to put a full sound system in the loco with a decent speaker.

[30368]

A brief postscript to the discussion re: Original, Unrebuilt and Rebuilt etc.

 

A former colleague Colin Boocock in his really useful book Locomotive Compendium - Southern has Original WC/BB as just that and rebuilt engines as WCX/BBX. The MNs were also designated MNX when re-built until they all were and then they reverted to MN.

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[phil-b259]

On 22/09/2023 at 17:57, ColinB said:

I think as someone mentioned earlier Hornby treats them as a cash cow. I don't think the design has changed much since the late 1980s. They have added a DCC socket in the tender which is interesting, as it about the only one of their models where there is more than enough room to put a full sound system in the loco with a decent speaker.

 

The current original condition Bulleid Light Pacific (WC / BB) tooling dates from the early 2000s and not the 1980s!

 

However as with lots of tooling from that era its showing its age - in particular where the lower firebox / Ashpan is split in two so that the rear wheel assembly can swivel and go round 2nd radius curves with fanged wheel (The original tooling suite of the 1999 / 2000 Merchant Navy that reset Hornbys approach to super detailed RTR adopted a similar solution BTW).

 

More recent releases like the rebuilt light pacifics had flange-less wheels to get round aforementioned curves and the Ashpan / firebox was done as a single unit that looks much more realistic - and when Hornby gave their Merchant Navy tooling a refresh around ten years ago they also used this flange-less wheel / fixed firebox setup.

[MikeParkin65]

On 22/09/2023 at 15:02, adb968008 said:

 

 

As side of the original MN this tooling suite is old.

i’m surprised Hornby did the Duchess and Princess before upgrading these.

 

 

As I understood it the pre 2017 Duchess and Princess models were 'economy upgrades' not done to the then state of the art standard of the 2000 MN due to the cost. I think SK himself said that somewhere. Hence it was 'their turn next' when we got the 2017 versions. Incidentally the chassis of the 2017 Duchess still owes a lot to the 2000 version (parts are largely interchangeable) whereas the Princess is new in all respects. 

[Steamport Southport]

I wonder whether they are working on a new version quietly in the background.

 

It is noticeable that there aren't any SR locomotives announced for TT yet, but there are SR allocated Pullmans. I would have thought that a Bulleid Pacific would be a no brainer for TT.

 

 

 

Jason