Mourning the death of the traditional Estate car

[kevinlms]

52 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I blame the Nissan Qashqai for making SUVs so popular. Horrible car and not very big inside despite its size. A feature of most SUVs is a shortish loadspace which makes them less useful for carrying layouts. I get on quite well with the Honda Civics (gen 9 & gen 10) for carrying layouts as they have quite a long loadspace when the seats are down.

The gen 9 was better than the gen10 as the gap between the wheelarches was an inch or so wider.

 

Way back, this was a great load lugger. Useful for camping holidays too.

Isn't the table? going to go through the rear window, when shut the tail gate?

[Chris M]

Just now, kevinlms said:

Isn't the table? going to go through the rear window, when shut the tail gate?

Thanks to the beautifully curved design of the tailgate, no it didn't. Its actually my trolley, not a table.. This was a 2.2 diesel and was a lovely car to drive - plenty of power and over 65mpg on the motorway.  When I sold this car at 90,000 miles the only unscheduled visit to a garage was to have the aircon re-gassed, absolutely zero issues with it.

[New Haven Neil]

I liked estates, had 3 Astras (total 450k miles!), a Citroen ZX and a Focus over the years, all good load luggers, the ZX was the best by far - all diesels.  Then Mrs NHN has had a Xsara Picasso and now a C3 Picasso (smaller, not as useful by far), I had a B-Max for five minutes, or so it seemed, practical but useless 1.4 petrol engine so back to diesels, and now a Hyundai i30 auto as I don't need the capacity since retirement.  However, I can hardy get in and out of the i30 (which has been faultless, unlike the Astras and the Focus) so next step will be something taller.  I need an auto now after trashing my left foot, so that limits choice too. 

 

We'll buy a new car to replace both when Mrs NHN retires, which may be 4 or more years away, up to 9 I suppose of she wants, so we will probably have to get something involving electricity, what a fudge that is. Green my ar$e.

[Nick C]

17 hours ago, didcot said:

I have the Astra J or Estate to the rest of us. I deliberately wanted a flat boot for loading 5" gauge locos. Plus the extra space for family holidays. But it's actually narrower than you think inside what with all the padding and little compartments. I can't get a door in it like my old Cavalier and whilst both are 1.6 petrol the Astra is truly awful. Its so under powered. It won't pull away quickly, lumbers up through the gears and is terrible on anything other than a flat surface. I fitted a towbar to the Cavalier and would pull loaded trailers or a caravan with ease. The Astra wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and hence no towbar which is inconvenient!

I've always gone for an estate car as generally they have been stable for towing. Slightly better towing weights and the like. But looking around there doesn't seem to be much of a comparison at the moment. 

I've got an Astra J estate - but mine is the Diesel 'ecoflex' version. While not the fastest car in the world, it's got plenty of torque, and I've carried doors in it before.

 

15 hours ago, 2mmMark said:

Because many council recycling centres automatically treat vans as "trade" and you end up having to weigh in anything you're taking in.

What are very good are the van-derived mini-MPVs. I have a Skoda Roomster which, as others have highlighted, is a great load carrier, being based on the VW Caddy platform.  The only issue I've found is that it's more aligned around cuboid loads.  My previous car was a Mondeo estate which had ample carrying capacity in a long body profile.  The Roomster has about the same interior volume but in a shorter wheelbase.  This means it's easier to park and manoeuvre.  The quirky design is a bit marmite but inside, it's very comfortable,  smooth and quiet.  Much less tiring to drive than the Mondeo.

 

Our council has special permits for privately owned vans and dual-purpose vehicles - giving you up to 12 visits per year.

 

One of my colleagues has had a succession of van-derived-cars (currently a Ford Transit connect), he is involved in the Scouts and so often has to lug lots of camping gear around.

[doilum]

Wife and daughter have been seriel Astra estate owners, eight or nine to date. All have been high milage purchases and have usually clocked up 200K before moving them on to some plasterer or painter tradesman. With each facelift they have gradually lost boot capacity with an increasingly sloping tailgate. Houghton Street was designed to fit the flat 60" load area. Daughter has just replaced her last one with a better specced Kia Ceed and has already noticed the reduction in load space.

It is a pity that GM decided to keep the Astra as poverty spec only. Recently I was out in my sister's Saab, built on an Astra platform. Had Vauxhall given the Astra the same dash, seats and leather trim, BMW might have had cause for concern. I still think that in the real world there is a demand for the medium size traditional estate car.

 

 

[fulton]

13 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

 

One of my colleagues has had a succession of van-derived-cars (currently a Ford Transit connect), he is involved in the Scouts and so often has to lug lots of camping gear around.

I have a Ford Connect, according to the HMG website it is van, not car derived, so the speed restrictions apply, not that it is any real problem, mine is an automatic with all the extras, very nice to drive, regularly do a return trip to Germany, is EURO 6 rated which is good as more cities have emission restrictions.

[lapford34102]

What a great thread, very interesting. Previous car was an Altea MPV which was a good sized load carrier and it's a pity MPV's have seemingly fallen out of favour for SUV lookalikes. Got a Golf hatch now which is a very good car 90% of the time but not a great capacity obviously. Golf estate is evidently very good with big space but you don't see that many around, there's also a Golf SV which is the MPV version which seems equally uncommon. Friend has a Toyota Corolla hybrid estate, nice car but the loadspace compromised by the rear roofline and tailgate shape, a problem that seems to afflict a lot of modern estates.

 

Stu

 

[Nick C]

4 minutes ago, fulton said:

I have a Ford Connect, according to the HMG website it is van, not car derived, so the speed restrictions apply, not that it is any real problem, mine is an automatic with all the extras, very nice to drive, regularly do a return trip to Germany, is EURO 6 rated which is good as more cities have emission restrictions.

His might be badged as a Tourneo rather than a Transit - but from what I understand it's down to the build spec - if it has sides/rear windows and rear seats at the time of first registration, it's a car, if not it's a van. 

[alastairq]

Dacia Logan MCV, anyone?   Proper 'estate' car, without all the frills & bling getting in the way.  Seems to have been forgotten?

 

30-odd years ago I made 'do' with a Renault 4....[family insisted I stopped motorcycling everywhere]...

 

With the seats removed, it swallowed a number of NMRA-type modules...Used to chortle its way over the M62 tween home, and Manchester, to get to 'meets'....Could manage almost 70 mph, especially going down the west side towards Manchester.....and also managed through some bad snow storms [which once shut the motorway, after I had struggled through, thankfully]

 

 

['CHARD]

21 hours ago, micklner said:

I had a Skoda Octavia Estate , ok ish car just boring and noisy inside.

 

 

You didn't have the right one 😉

 

The insane petrol HPEs are great fun and very refined - basically a reskinned Golf GTi.

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 hours ago, lapford34102 said:

…….Golf estate is evidently very good with big space but you don't see that many around, there's also a Golf SV which is the MPV version which seems equally uncommon…….

 

The Golf SV was available with the previous Golf mk7, which was replaced a couple of years ago, by the Golf mk8.

They no longer do the SV version, as it wasn’t a good seller ( Joe public preferring crossovers and SUV's).

My late father-in-law had 2 brand new VW Touran MPV’s in succession, replacing the 2nd one in turn with a Golf SV, which was the last car he owned, before passing away 2 years ago.

The smaller SV was more suitable for my in-laws reduced needs, but it had a very impressive load area, compared with the Passat estate.

If you can find a used one (they’re fairly rare), it would be an ideal load carrier for a small exhibition layout.

 

.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Incidentally, VW are bringing out a Passat sized EV saloon car, with an estate version.

Don’t expect to see it before the end of 2023 though and the new car price will probably make a few on here, wince.

 

 

.

[wombatofludham]

I currently drive a 16 year old Saab 9-5 "Dame Edna" estate, bought specifically for the old exhibition layout, which at less than 80000 miles on the clock is just about run in for a Saab.  Nicknamed the "Swedish State Barge" it has helped out on two house moves, numerous tip runs, the shed layout construction and once transported a sofa across Normandy.  There are so many cubby holes and spaces under the load bay floor, behind the rear lamp housings and other locations you could shift a small van's worth of odds and sods if you needed to.  All at speeds that can out-perform an HST if you fancy putting your licence at risk.  It's also a lot better than the Vauxsaab Vectra 9-3 in that the seat bases fold up against the front seats giving you a totally flat floor space, whereas the 9-3 the rear seat backs just fold onto their bases which is pretty pointless if you want a flat loadbay to take a fridge-freezer or outdoor dining table, which the State Barge has swallowed in the past.

I intend to keep it running as long as I can which is actually greener than scrapping it for a new electric shopping trolley, as the greatest contribution to carbon emissions is making the car, not the fact it has a 2 litre engine with petrol consumption to match.

[Halvarras]

14 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Having been a Citroën devotee since 1987, no sympathies please!, for the past 25 years or so I've had a succession of XM and C5 estates for their carrying capacity.

On coming to Spain I decided to buy my last car, and, for the reasons mentioned previously went for a C5 Exclusive Tourer, the last with proper suspension not cart springs, adjustable to make loading easier.

When in England, I knew someone with a BMW X5, but I took him and his family to the airport in my old C5 as there wasn't enough room in his car!

 

Mike.

 

I also owned a Citroen C5 Tourer Exclusive, from June 2019 until this August, I also bought it on retirement expecting It to be my last car. It was fabulous - "last of the proper Citroens" my Citroen specialist garage said - and on a 63-plate it was a late one too - and the only estate car I have ever owned. It had electric everything, including powered tailgate and driver's seat back massager, and everything worked, even the rechargeable torch in the boot side trim. I liked the colour, a pearlescent grey-blue, and the way it looked - much better than the saloon version. When we moved house for the first time in 35 years its huge capacity was a godsend for dump trips and the final move, and in my hands it was totally reliable. 

 

BUT.......it turned out to be the most jinxed car I have ever owned. Various incidents had led to that suspicion, but then in March it failed the MOT with a leaking front shock absorber (itself I suspect attributable to another earlier spot of bad luck) - it was off the road for 12 days awaiting delivery of a Hydractive unit from Citroen, I got it back with a £600+ bill..........and 4 hours later hit a small deer on a stretch of road where the locals say they've never seen one. It was also April Fool's Day. I was still able to drive it until July when it went in for repair. My insurers made all kinds of positive noises about me getting it back, then suddenly wrote it off in August, due they said to additional damage found when they eventually prised the bonnet open. By then it didn't matter as I had become reluctant to drive it anywhere anyway.

Its replacement is 21" shorter and 3 .5" narrower so should be a smaller target for kids on bikes, Vauxhall Zafira drivers and small deer.........

Edited November 1, 2022 by Halvarras
New car's shorter than I thought!

[doilum]

3 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

You didn't have the right one 😉

 

The insane petrol HPEs are great fun and very refined - basically a reskinned Golf GTi.

My brother is a 1000 miles a week service engineer who has clocked up almost a million miles in company estate cars. His fully specced Octavia (auto for his dodgy knee) is a good place to spend three hours of each working day.

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

My brother is a 1000 miles a week service engineer who has clocked up almost a million miles in company estate cars. His fully specced Octavia (auto for his dodgy knee) is a good place to spend three hours of each working day.

 

The altitude function has been a Godsend in accurately annotating an OS map of the A7 as it climbs the valley of Ewes Water between Langholm and the summit at Mosspaul; all part of railway research, and a feature I wasn't aware of when I bought the car.  

 

More seriously, it safely evacuated us from Teviotdale and Eskdale when the route via Whitrope became impassable and the A7 itself was under 18" of water in places, during the great tempest of 15th February 2020 (Storm Dennis).  

[Taigatrommel]

I'll add my voice to those praising the Skoda Superb.  We have a late mk2 with the 1.6 Greenline engine.  Its volumetric load carrying capabilities are prodigious, although when things get weighty (eg four adults plus camping gear or a boot full of German beer) it sits a bit low at the back.  It's not an exciting drive, but equally it's very pleasant for a long drive to destinations such as Rügen and Dresden!  If I was in a very hilly area I'd want the 2.0, though my wife used to drive it over Cleeve Hill every day without issue.  It's also excellent for rear seat adult passengers, bags of legroom and good ceiling height.  I'd advocate 3 foot long boards for layouts designed round it, with the seats down you could fit a lot in then.  I saw Yetis mentioned, I'd have to disagree with them as load carriers if you have a full compliment of passengers - my inlaws have one and it doesn't hold a candle to the Superb for space.  Very sensible vehicle in its 4wd form for them on their Cumbrian farm though.

 

Previously we had a Passat, which I marginally preferred the driver's seat in, and I find it nicer than a Mondeo.  But yes, I'd take any of those three over an SUV as a layout transport.

[30801]

7 hours ago, alastairq said:

Dacia Logan MCV, anyone?   Proper 'estate' car, without all the frills & bling getting in the way.  Seems to have been forgotten?

 

They don't make them any more...

Although its replacement, the Jogger is generally accepted to be a thing of wonder.

[big jim]

I bought my superb after the mini broke down on the motorway one evening in the summer, later the same night I had a taxi from home to hereford which was the saloon version of the superb, as I say having had a couple of pheatons I’d forgotten how roomy and comfortable the big VWs are, pretty much ended up buying this the next day! 
 

it cruises up and down the motorway to the caravan with ease, loaded with suitcases, 3 cat boxes on the back seat and bike on the rack sometimes, hopefully I’ll get a fair few years out of it yet!
 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by big jim

[Ron Ron Ron]

A used Jaguar XF Sportbrake, with modest mileage, can be had for reasonable money, 

It has a long load area.

 

Rear seats up...

 

 

 

...and folded down.....

 

 

 

 

.

[298]

On 31/10/2022 at 13:26, 37114 said:

So what has changed to cause us all to fall out of love with the estate? 

 

The Wife. I was looking at getting a Focus estate about 8 years ago and we traipsed down to the Ford dealer to have a look as I couldn't get a test drive of one on the company lease scheme ( basically an excuse to borrow a hire car for the weekend ). The B Max was surprising, the Kuga was too posh but the Estate was deemed horrible because the rear window was too far away. I did try to buy a C Max but it turned out the dealer had a strange attitude to pricing when the same "nearly new, ex Ford Management" car was advertised for different prices at different sites. We then discounted the C max because the Titanium spec that had a pano roof also had leather seats, so ended up with a 2014 Qashqai. In my defence having the onset of a bad back and having to lift child's car seats in and out makes the higher platform less of a struggle, but as a layout lugger it's not as good as it's predecessor* where I could take the rear seats out completely.

 

My Dad has had a succession of Estate cars for carrying model aeroplane bits in (Mk2 Escort, Ital, Astra and two Focus). As you can tell, some were better than others...

 

(*I wish I'd been a bit braver and run a succession of old Saab's instead of my previous car, a 2004 PT Cruiser that is still on the road).

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 31/10/2022 at 18:34, 33C said:

I would rather walk than buy an SUV. They roll over as soon as look at them, there are massive blind spots, no space inside and look ridiculous.  

 

Don't you think that's a rather ridiculous list and not remotely factual?

SUV's are quite varied in size, with many, particularly the smaller ones, not being SUV's at all, but rather "Crossovers".

 

The large and very expensive Tesla Model X mentioned earlier, is really an MPV.

It looks like one too, but they market it as an SUV because the punters are not interested in MPV's anymore.

Mega expensive though.

 

Some of these "Crossover" SUV's are smaller inside, particularly in the boot area, than you'd imagine, because they are based on small hatchback or saloon car platforms.

Example below.....

 

On 31/10/2022 at 18:41, big jim said:

....I had a Vauxhall Mokka SUV type hire car a while back and went to pick up a full size fridge freezer which I couldn’t fit in...

 

 

The Mokka is based on the Corsa, a small so called "supermini". It's no wonder the load space is modest.

Would you fancy trying to put your "full size fridge freezer" in a Corsa? 

 

Other SUV's are cavernous inside, both for passengers and cargo and they don't have to be of the largest size category either.

 

My wife has a Mercedes GLB.

A fairly new SUV model, based on the smallest car in the Mercedes-Benz range, the current model A-Class.

However, with the rear seats down, it's huge inside.

Plenty of room for carrying a layout and associated gubbins around, with a totally flat floor and no loading lip.

 

A few years ago, I had a Volvo XC90 SUV.

Loads of luggage space, even with the 2nd row of seats in use (it had a third row that folded into the boot floor too).

It had a massive, long load area with the 2nd row folded down.

Prior to that, I had a Mercedes E-Class estate, long renowned to have one of the largest load areas of any estate car sold in Europe. The XC90 was much bigger inside.

 

.

 

[Trainshed Terry]

I had many years ago had a VAUXHALL AGILA ESTATE 1.2 on a "X" plate that had a large boot space when you used with the back seats folded down.

 

Terry

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A used Jaguar XF Sportbrake, with modest mileage, can be had for reasonable money, 

It has a long load area.

 

Rear seats up...

 

 

 

...and folded down.....

 

 

 

 

.

Blimey, it changes colour when you fold the seats!

[33C]

25 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Don't you think that's a rather ridiculous list and not remotely factual?

SUV's are quite varied in size, with many, particularly the smaller ones, not being SUV's at all, but rather "Crossovers".

 

The large and very expensive Tesla Model X mentioned earlier, is really an MPV.

It looks like one too, but they market it as an SUV because the punters are not interested in MPV's anymore.

Mega expensive though.

 

Some of these "Crossover" SUV's are smaller inside, particularly in the boot area, than you'd imagine, because they are based on small hatchback or saloon car platforms.

Example below.....

 

 

The Mokka is based on the Corsa, a small so called "supermini". It's no wonder the load space is modest.

Would you fancy trying to put your "full size fridge freezer" in a Corsa? 

 

Other SUV's are cavernous inside, both for passengers and cargo and they don't have to be of the largest size category either.

 

My wife has a Mercedes GLB.

A fairly new SUV model, based on the smallest car in the Mercedes-Benz range, the current model A-Class.

However, with the rear seats down, it's huge inside.

Plenty of room for carrying a layout and associated gubbins around, with a totally flat floor and no loading lip.

 

A few years ago, I had a Volvo XC90 SUV.

Loads of luggage space, even with the 2nd row of seats in use (it had a third row that folded into the boot floor too).

It had a massive, long load area with the 2nd row folded down.

Prior to that, I had a Mercedes E-Class estate, long renowned to have one of the largest load areas of any estate car sold in Europe. The XC90 was much bigger inside.

 

.

 

I stand by my list. As for full size freezer, got one into my sons mk.1 Micra AND shut the tailgate. The centre of gravity seems to be rather high in a good many cars these days and the interiors very claustrophobic, what with the air-con, air bags all round etc. And you are going to need them when it does a full 360...🙃