GWR fleet circa 1910-1915 - Most common wagon types?

[Miss Prism]

The route colour discs started to appear on loco cabsides from mid-1919. (I haven't found one earlier than that.)

 

Whether the route notions of red, blue etc existed before that date I don't know.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Miss Prism
2nd para added

[Miss Prism]

Some of the big-wheeled 4-4-0s were red locos. (Cities, Flowers, not sure about the Atbaras.)

 

[Mikkel]

18 hours ago, WM183 said:

I was thinking blue, but I am unsure. I was thinking of running small tanks and maybe a Dean Goods, but I'm also tempted to depict something urban and capable of handling the 4-4-0s, Aberdares and 4300s, and the bigger tanks like 2721s? 

 

Any ideas where the layout will be located, and the type of station? That might help focus your choice of locos.

 

 

 

[Guest WM183]

Hi Mikkel.

I don't know! I guessed somewhere in Cornwall, but I am just not sure. I planned to more or less pick "what I like" and see where it fit? I'd like to run. I'd like to have a station with a couple of platforms. I honestly have considered an urban "Minories" type layout with a goods shed or siding, so I can get lots of variety of carriages.

850 and 2021 panniers or saddle tanks
Dean goods

Aberdare (too cool not to!)

4400 or 4500 small prairie(s)
A smaller 4-4-0, perhaps.

[Siberian Snooper]

Sounds like a Devon or Cornwall type layout, but apart from Plymouth, Torbay, Exeter and perhaps Truro, it's pretty rural, depending on the era, you plan to model.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

Just a suggestion about numbers, if I may.  As it's just a snapshot of proceedings, the presence or otherwise can very distinctly skewed. If it's a Sunday, it cold have returned from a Per.Way job. It's not to pour cold water, but just an observation. 

[Mike Huxley]

12 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi Mikkel.

I don't know! I guessed somewhere in Cornwall, but I am just not sure. I planned to more or less pick "what I like" and see where it fit? I'd like to run. I'd like to have a station with a couple of platforms. I honestly have considered an urban "Minories" type layout with a goods shed or siding, so I can get lots of variety of carriages.

850 and 2021 panniers or saddle tanks
Dean goods

Aberdare (too cool not to!)

4400 or 4500 small prairie(s)
A smaller 4-4-0, perhaps.

Have a look at Falmouth station for your period. 2 platforms, goods shed and an engine shed. Rated to take blue class locos and some good operation if you can fit it into a reasonable size layout.

[Hal Nail]

I find its hard enough to find specific locos in the format, livery and location you hoped to do, let alone finding somewhere with all the locos you want in one place! 

 

For that reason I model actual locos but my setting will be fictional, combining actual elements from the area.

 

You could do something styled on the Kingswear route, for example, and it would not be an enormous leap of credibility to have Newton Abbot's bulldogs involved.

 

 

[Brassey]

7 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I find its hard enough to find specific locos in the format, livery and location you hoped to do, let alone finding somewhere with all the locos you want in one place! 

 

It's not hard at all.  As mentioned earlier, the shed allocations are held in the archives at Kew and details of the locos, build dates - boiler changes etc., are in the RCTS volumes.   Locos also moved around so there were many non-home shed visitors.

 

Also the GWR was not confined to Devon; Bulldogs made it North up to Shrewsbury for example.  A bit of research is quite fulfilling and can provide some interesting scenarios.

[Hal Nail]

19 minutes ago, Brassey said:

A bit of research is quite fulfilling

 

Not if you dont get the answer you wanted!

 

I wasnt suggesting research is difficult, I was saying often what you might think was a common combination of features turns out to be less so.

[Guest WM183]

On 12/11/2022 at 00:55, Mike Huxley said:

Have a look at Falmouth station for your period. 2 platforms, goods shed and an engine shed. Rated to take blue class locos and some good operation if you can fit it into a reasonable size layout.

Thanks much! I will have a look.

I am more married to the setting than my scale; if I had to drop back to 4mm for a layout like this, I would. I shall see what I can fit of this on a pair of 1200mm "Lack" shelves.

[Guest WM183]

On 12/11/2022 at 00:55, Mike Huxley said:

Have a look at Falmouth station for your period. 2 platforms, goods shed and an engine shed. Rated to take blue class locos and some good operation if you can fit it into a reasonable size layout.

It's even a branchline that goes to a dockside....!? So did dock traffic move along the branch?

[Schooner]

Slowly!

 

Bear in mind that Falmouth's docks, although handling grain, timber and coal imports (the usuals) and china clay exports, were in large part for vessel re-stock, refit and repair. Engineering works took up more real estate than warehousing. Seasonal fishing fleets would also unload on the beach just to the West of the docks, a good excuse for fish traffic. So, if you did go for something Falmouth-based, you'd have the docks to justify wagon variety but wouldn't have to worry too much about an overwhelming quantity of anything!

 

Ideal, really :) 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 09/11/2022 at 19:00, Miss Prism said:

 

No, but this would be highly dependent on location. Try this 1920 Bristol snapshot, courtesty of @Penlan:

 C=Cripples??  If so, 8% sounds a lot.  Nearly half of them are GWR though, and quite a few more from GW constituents at a date when Grouping was probably expected with shareholders unwilling to invest

 

Backlog of war-worn vehicles dumped pending decision whether to mend properly or to scrap?  Surplus to requirements once the war was over?  Condemned even?? 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 C=Cripples??  If so, 8% sounds a lot.  Nearly half of them are GWR though, and quite a few more from GW constituents at a date when Grouping was probably expected with shareholders unwilling to invest

 

C is cripples. The proportion is not that unusual - did the GWR have a wagon repair shop at Bristol? The usual arrangement would be for such an establishment to carry out light repairs on foreign wagons, charged to the owning company. Wagon repairs were a charge on revenue, estimated in advance across the company's wagon fleet, so not requiring any authorisation of increased capital.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[bécasse]

Cripples would have included vehicles that had run hot, had a broken spring or perhaps a broken or damaged hinge, door or brake fastener, or possibly loose roof canvas. All everyday things in the life of traditional goods stock which weren't difficult or expensive to fix but which did have to be fixed before the wagon concerned could run in traffic again.

[Compound2632]

... and generally, rolling stock utilisation was much lower than would be tolerated nowadays. Having 10% or more of the locomotive stock unavailable - in the works for maintenance of varying degree - was not only normal but desirable to keep the railway running smoothly. 

[Fat Controller]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

C is cripples. The proportion is not that unusual - did the GWR have a wagon repair shop at Bristol? The usual arrangement would be for such an establishment to carry out light repairs on foreign wagons, charged to the owning company. Wagon repairs were a charge on revenue, estimated in advance across the company's wagon fleet, so not requiring any authorisation of increased capital.

The former Bristol and Exeter loco shed at Barton Hill became the GWR wagon shops; the Midland had theirs next door.

[JimC]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:05, drduncan said:

where were the Armstrong/Dean period 2-2-2 and 4-2-2 single wheelers (those that had survived) and what were they employed on?

Isn't the 'when in doubt' location for anything weird, old or unusual on the GWR 'somewhere in the Chester area' ? Especially odd 2-4-0s?

 

At this date I suggest it's still worth considering the north/south divisions, and which your line is in.

 

With wagons from other lines, in pre pool days wouldn't they tend to reflect specific traffic flows rather than a random collection from multiple lines? 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

With wagons from other lines, in pre pool days wouldn't they tend to reflect specific traffic flows rather than a random collection from multiple lines? 

 

And which are the "friendly" lines? My favourite example is a collision between a Caledonian and a G&SWR goods train at Gretna Junction in May 1901. Full details here: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=728.

Both were goods trains conveying Anglo-Scottish traffic. The G&SWR train was made up of G&SWR and Midland wagons, the Caledonian train with wagons of the Caledonian, L&NWR, L&YR, NER (from Newcastle), NSR, and GWR (roughly in order of number of wagons - without checking, I think there was just one GWR wagon in the casualty list). 

 

That is a rather extreme example but a long-distance goods train between major cities was more likely to have a few foreigners than a branch stopping goods.

[melmoth]

On 10/11/2022 at 13:16, Miss Prism said:

The number of Dean Singles  dwindled rapidly after 1910, but were employed on secondary passenger work and milk trains. One Cobham survived until 1914, based at Oxford I think.

 

 

Could you clarify this? The last 157/Cobham class 2-2-2 single was indeed withdrawn in 1914, but the last 'Dean Single' as perhaps most would understand the term (i.e. 3031/Achilles class) lasted until 1916

[Miss Prism]

8 minutes ago, melmoth said:

Could you clarify this? The last 157/Cobham class 2-2-2 single was indeed withdrawn in 1914, but the last 'Dean Single' as perhaps most would understand the term (i.e. 3031/Achilles class) lasted until 1916

 

Correct. I'm not sure what you want me to clarify.

 

[melmoth]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Correct. I'm not sure what you want me to clarify.

 

 

Sorry, yes, I didn't parse your sentences correctly. Mea culpa.

[Miss Prism]

Ok.

[wagonman]

A few random thoughts: the late surviving 2-2-2 at Oxford was mainly used on the Fairford branch I believe.

 

Any secondary main line in the Southwest probably needs a Duke. Apart from the Duke, Bulldog and 3521 classes, all 4-4-0s were Red, I believe.

 

I don't think Aberdares ventured west of Exeter until much later – a batch was employed on china clay traffic in the 1920s. Dean Goods were common in the Southwest in the 1890 and 1900s but had all but disappeared in the 1920s when there was just one left at Exeter.

 

Pre-WW1 much, but definitely not all, of the coal used in Devon and Cornwall arrived by sea. That said, no layout of that time and place would be complete without at least one Renwick, Wilton & Co wagon!