Bournemouth Electrification & TCs

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Nowadays at Southampton, when Cl.444s are joined on up morning services, the rear unit couples directly onto the front portion, then the doors are opened. Announcements are made over the PA prior to arrival at Soton to remind passengers that there will be a slight delay before the doors open.

[kintbury jon]

Back to TCs..some new pics and some seen before...first one 37 with TCs on tour.. next 2x73s leaving Brock with a 5TCB + 4TC Waterloo service. ..more to come.

 

Excellent - love that livery mismatch! Keep them coming...

[Ian J.]

Nowadays at Southampton, when Cl.444s are joined on up morning services, the rear unit couples directly onto the front portion, then the doors are opened. Announcements are made over the PA prior to arrival at Soton to remind passengers that there will be a slight delay before the doors open.

 

Ah, the boring joys of remotely operated and lock-able doors. It was more fun with the slam doors...

[robertcwp]

A bit more from the carriage workings, this time Summer 1969 Mon-Fri.

 

The 8 Vab had a regular scheduled working, with a 4 Vep at the Bournemouth end: 0856 Bournemouth-Waterloo, 1147 return, 1456 from Bournemouth and 1730 return.

 

As this would give 4 motor coaches, would they have cut one set of motors? I was under the impression that the Vab had three motor coaches to give it sufficient power to propel a TC, but could not do so because the Vep coaches did not have the extra power jumper for heating and lighting, which Reps did have so that they could feed the heat and light to the TCs.

 

The 1744 Waterloo-Bournemouth was EDL, 8TC, 3TC and the 1810 Waterloo-Salisbury was DL, 8TC.

 

There was a 1530 from Waterloo comprising EDL, 4TC for Bournemouth and a 4TC for Swanage.

 

Reps were generally shown at the London end of trains. The 0847 from Waterloo was 4TC, 3TC for Weymouth and 4 Rep for Bournemouth. The 1030 was listed as 4TC for Weymouth and 4 Rep, 3TC (in that order) for Bournemouth.

 

Bournemouth/Basingstoke slows were a 4 Vep, also with 4 Hap for either Alton or Portsmouth line. By 1969 Veps were finding their way onto the Portsmouth line too as they were by then ousting the 2 Bil and 2 Hal units.

 

In 1967, the new service got off to a very bad start. Railway Observer reported lots of problems including many unit failures (Reps seem to have been good at losing shoes early on) and short formations. Also various temporary formations persisted after July 1967, including a Rep with a TC brake second and 4TC 422 running as a three-car set including a Rep brake first (this unit had run with a Rep buffet earlier in 1967). Photos of 422 in both these guises appear in the Ian Allan British Railway Pictorial First Generation Southern EMUs, though the author did not pick up on the points in the captions. Some Veps in the 7721-55 batch intended for the Central Division were switched to the South Western almost immediately (as well as three being used to form the Vab).

[lapford34102]

and 4TC 422 running as a three-car set including a Rep brake first

Hi,

Thanks for mentioning that My memory wasn't playing tricks after all. Now this might be total twaddle but weren't a couple of compartments in the brake of the 3TC's temporarily marked as First Class for a time with paper labels ?

 

 

Not particularly good but this shot of a TC and Crompton at Weymouth was taken just after the full service commenced IIRC. The shots from the rest of the roll must be somewhere.

 

Cheers

Stu

[roythebus]

One unmentioned danger of the quick attach/detach is that of putting up the loco's eth jumpers before the REP's eth jumpers had been dropped. This could cause serious electrical problems with line voltage being applied to the loco! I don't recall any instances of it happening, but it's a possibility that sprang to mind.

[Gwiwer]

The 8Vab was in effect a 5-car and a 3-car unit semi-permanently coupled. All the cab ends carried the unit number including the intermediate ones which also retained yellow panels and later full yellow ends. It was in theory possible to split the unit and there is at least one recorded occasion (noted in the SEG journal "Live Rail") of 5Vab+4Vep on an up Bournemouth - Waterloo semi-fast. The 3-car portion was reportedly out of service at Bournemouth depot. There is no record I know of where the 3-car portion ran without its big brother but the possibility of seeing the same unit in two places at once did exist. Anyone who spotted 8001+77?? working up to Waterloo and then wandered down to Bournemouth West only to find 8001 also there might have had to check their NHS specs!

 

In addition to powering the train 8001 was required to supply some additional power to the buffet car which, as an SR wired vehicle, would probably have had electric cooking. I believe all motor coaches were powered when running as 8Vab+4Vep so as not to under-power the train and buffet car combined.

 

In later years 8001 was recycled as a 4TC unit number. None of the same vehicles was involved. the 4TC's became TOPS class 438 and in the 4-digit scheme still universally used at the time for SR emu stock 438 001 was identified as 8001 on the unit.

[robertcwp]

Railway Observer reported the 5-coach unit from 8001 running with Vep 7745 at the Bournemouth end and 7771 at the Waterloo end as the 1730 Waterloo-Bournemouth on 31 October 1969. The 3-coach set from 8001 had entered Eastleigh for overhaul at the end of October 1969 but the 5-coach set went in a week later. The unit was outshopped still in blue apart from buffet S1759 in blue/grey. This is probably when the unit lost its metal double arrow emblems from the cabsides, as subsequent photos show the unit with white double arrow transfers lower down on the cab sides. Incidentally, the whole unit was repainted blue/grey in 1972. I don't know what cooking arrangements S1759 had but if it remained as basically a normal RB it would have had propane gas cooking. I recall reading somewhere that S1759 was not fitted with EP brakes.

[yellowvanman]

two more ..2xEd( 135+130 I think) on the rear of some ECS enter Bournemouth depot and REP 7 on Railtour duties leaves the depot and heads into Branksome station..pics taken from old box now gone...both 1988.

[Glorious NSE]

I was going to school in Wimbledon at the time of the run down of the fleet and remember the 73/TCB combo's - in shove mode they bounced around like anything on the pointwork at Wimbledon West - they always gave the impression that at some point one of the pair was going to decide to turn left for Sutton.

[4630]

I recall reading somewhere that S1759 was not fitted with EP brakes.

 

I believe that was the case. My copy of the BR(SR) Appendix to Carriage Working Notices from May 1974 shows S1759 to be air brake only.

[Southernman46]

Hi,

Thanks for mentioning that My memory wasn't playing tricks after all. Now this might be total twaddle but weren't a couple of compartments in the brake of the 3TC's temporarily marked as First Class for a time with paper labels ?

 

 

Not particularly good but this shot of a TC and Crompton at Weymouth was taken just after the full service commenced IIRC. The shots from the rest of the roll must be somewhere.

 

Cheers

Stu

 

 

 

Great photo - I loved that old station at Weymouth - happy Saturday mornings on Holiday being allowed to spend the whole morning there while everybody else went shopping...

 

It was always a source of wonder to see the DMU to Bristol that was timed to depart Weynouth at 11:11 !! That had to have been deliberate done by somebody in the timetabling section >

 

Interestingly the Crompton in the photo is on the "wrong" end of the train

[robertcwp]

Interestingly the Crompton in the photo is on the "wrong" end of the train

Probably because it is not a push-pull fitted one.

[Southernman46]

Probably because it is not a push-pull fitted one.

 

 

Hadn't looked that closely at the number - even more interesting then, it would have needed extension air-pipes to reach the 4-TC's high level pipes as they hadn't low-level ones.

[lapford34102]

Hi,

 

Digging through some old railway docs looking for something completely different got sidetracked by this dating from the second half of 1966 when the TC's arrived but none of the fitted Cromptons.

 

 

 

And yes, the extension hoses are mentioned on page 2.

 

Cheers

Stu

[Southernman46]

Excellent - haven't seen too many photos of the workings before the pull-push cromptons entered service = guess everybody had put their cameras away after the end of steam. Anybody got any to show please ?

 

Everything in green too - would have thought that the opportunity would have been taken to put the TC's in blue/grey during conversion.

[yellowvanman]

To early for me...1980s onwards only ...heres some T.Cs on tour with non push-pull cromptons(Rail-freight construction liv.) 1990, 33064 at Barry and 33042+33207 at Sheffield..

[lapford34102]

Everything in green too - would have thought that the opportunity would have been taken to put the TC's in blue/grey during conversion.

 

Hi,

The TC's were delivered in plain Rail Blue with aluminium arrows and white numbers etc. The numbers were quite a bit smaller than those used on the Blue/Grey livery and placed in the conventional position on the right hand end of the coach. This meant it was under the arrow on the driving trailer.

 

Not a good shot but if you look closely you make out the number under the arrow. Perhaps someone's got a better shot or even colour ones.

 

Cheers

Stu

[P.C.M]

To early for me...1980s onwards only ...heres some T.Cs on tour with non push-pull cromptons(Rail-freight construction liv.) 1990, 33064 at Barry and 33042+33207 at Sheffield..

 

 

Nice pics Keith, I remember those railtours. I forgot the railtour to Sheffield had TCs as the stock.

 

Here are a couple that may be of interest.

 

Cheers Peter.

[Peter A Hall]

On 14/07/2010 at 22:58, robertcwp said:

Looking at the 10 July 1967 Waterloo carriage workings, ......

 

There was an 1800 1/2 formed 4 TC, 3 TC (Salisbury), 4 TC, EDL (Basingstoke).

 

A bit more from the carriage workings, this time Summer 1969 Mon-Fri.

 

1810 Waterloo-Salisbury was DL, 8TC.

I've become intrigued by this train and balancing 06xx from Salisbury from c1967 until 1980.  These comments suggest dividing of the 'Down' at Basingstoke didn't last long and the DL, 8TC  arrangement continued throughout the 1970s 

 

Until at least 1973 the 'Up' was advertised as terminating at Basingstoke.

 

A fascinating comment on p.246 of the July 1974 Railway Observer says "An interesting formation is, however, the 07.28 (SX) Southampton-Waterloo which from Basingstoke consists of a Class 33/1, 4TC and 4-VEP".  A comment elsewhere says "In 1974 the 0653 Salisbury-Waterloo 33/1+4TC stood in the Up Slow platform at Basingstoke waiting for the 0728 Southampton-Basingstoke 4Vep to attach."

 

From May 1977 the 'Up' was advertised as a through train to Waterloo departing 0657. Another comment elsewhere is that it then became "8TC+33/1 to Basingstoke where it attached to a 4-Rep ex Barton Mill Sidings".  Yet another quote has it that this 4-Rep arrived as 2212 Bournemouth-Basingstoke the previous evening.

 

If though until May 1977 the UP was only 4-TC, what happened to the other 4-TC off the down?

 

On Saturdays the UP always terminated at Basingstoke.  What did the TC stock then do?  

 

Until October 1976 on Saturdays there was a 2210 Waterloo-Salisbury which was presumably DL, 8TC.  This was hauled stock subsequently. As the Sunday Reading - Portsmouth Harbour service went other to DL, 4TC operation then, it is presumed the TC stock was deployed on that. At the same time the Sunday 2159 Reading-Yeovil Junction went other to DL, 4TC.  

Edited January 8, 2022 by Peter A Hall
2212 was ex Bournemouth not Waterloo

[Peter A Hall]

On 13/07/2010 at 11:42, 45156 said:

The unusual formations of EMU/TC/Loco were designated EML in the working timetables, and they did certainly prove the versatility of the stock - one of these that I remember was out of Bournemouth (ISTR it was a Saturday extra) and was formed 4-VEP/4-TC/33/1 driven from the VEP end which was the London end of the train - If I remember, it worked to somewhere like Basingstoke where it connected with a London bound service off the Exeter.

 

Very interesting.  Perhaps a vital clue to the question posed in my previous post regarding what the 4-TC or 8-TC /33/1 off the 06:5x Salisbury - Basingstoke did next on a Saturday.

[Peter A Hall]

On 03/01/2022 at 22:16, Peter A Hall said:

From May 1977 the 'Up' was advertised as a through train to Waterloo departing 0657. Another comment elsewhere is that it then became "8TC+33/1 to Basingstoke where it attached to a 4-Rep ex Barton Mill Sidings".  Yet another quote has it that this 4-Rep arrived as 2212 Bournemouth-Basingstoke the previous evening.

 

 

Thanks to a couple of chaps who have been able to access CWNs for 1977/78 & 1978/79 this appears to be how things actually worked in these years:-

 

The Up SX 06:57 ex Salisbury combined at Basingstoke with the 07:17 ex Eastleigh before going forward to Waterloo. The formation to Basingstoke was 33/1+4TC from Salisbury / 4Vep+4Vep from Eastleigh; formation from Basingstoke was 33/1+4TC+4Vep+4Vep. It is noted that Platform 9 was used at Waterloo, perhaps significant due to the train length.

The Down SX 18:10 Waterloo-Salisbury was 33/1+4TC(ex 'Kenny Belle')+4TC(ex above). At Salisbury these were split and the 4TC did the following:-

1977/78
Tuesday-Friday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke for 07:39 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:19 Salisbury - Basingstoke*
2 - 06:57 ex Salisbury and as above.
Saturday
1 & 2 - ecs to Basingstoke then 06:28 Basingstoke-Waterloo with 4Rep off FO 22:12 Bournemouth - Basingstoke

NB - Monday
1- 07:39 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:19 Salisbury - Basingstoke* off a Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram.
2 -06:57 ex Salisbury and as above. This arrived by way of the SUN 21:59 Reading - Yeovil Junction

* - the 4TC off the 17:19 ex Salisbury is coupled to 4Rep+4TC off FSX 22:12 Bournemouth-Basingstoke and forms MSX 07:10 Basingstoke-Waterloo. On Saturdays the 4TC works 07:39 Basingstoke-Salisbury, 09:12 Salisbury-Basingstoke then Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram starting Basingstoke

1978/79
Tuesday-Friday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke for 07:40 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:20 Salisbury - Basingstoke*
2 - 06:57 ex Salisbury and as above.
Saturday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke then 06:28 Basingstoke-Waterloo with 4Rep off FO 22:12 Bournemouth - Basingstoke and 4TC off FO 17:20 Salisbury-Basingstoke
2- 09:10 Salisbury-Basingstoke then Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram starting Basingstoke

NB - Monday
1- 07:40 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:20 Salisbury - Basingstoke* off a Sunday Pompey - Basinsingstoke - Reading diagram.
2 -06:57 ex Salisbury and as above. This arrived by way of the SUN 21:59 Reading - Yeovil Junction

* - the 4TC off the 1720 ex Salisbury is coupled to 4Rep+4TC off FSX 22:12 Bournemouth-Basingstoke and forms MSX 07:10 Basingstoke-Waterloo. On Saturdays 06:28 ex Basingstoke as above.

As far as can be established, in both timetables the SO 06:57 Salisbury-Basingstoke and in 1978/79, the SO 07:40 Basingstoke-Salisbury, were DEMU.

 

Quite probably the same applied in 1979/1980, so far no one was has come forward who is able to check the relevant documents.

[KeithHC]

Of course once the 5WES came in pull push did not stop. Southern innovation again and we have the Gatwick Express maybe they could have given the Mk2 sets a different class type say 3GTC and 2GTC.

 

Keith