Bournemouth Electrification & TCs

[Oldddudders]

With the 4CEP & 2EPB being done I think that it wil be a matter of time before the like of the 4TC get's an airing. Ideal was to lengthen many of the unit formations and can be used with the 33 or 73 in MU mode - I remember that there was a 1980's service 4TC & 33 from Cardiff to south coast.

The 4TCs were an essential component of Southern Region's abolition of steam on the remaining route from Waterloo-Weymouth in July 1967. Not exactly new units, being endowed with previous-generation underframes I think, the TCs were intended to run as the leading units from Waterloo, with power provided by the 3,200 hp 4REP pushing. On arrival at Bournemouth, a push-pull fitted BRCW Type 3 - aka Crompton (or Class 33 to modern folk) - would be attached to the leading TC, and off they would go over the non-electrifed route to Weymouth. On the return journey, the Crompton would push the TC onto the rear of the 4REP, uncouple, and back to Waterloo they'd go. Often 2x 4TCs would be used, although only in peak times would they both go to Weymouth. In service, it was quickly found that pushing 8TC produced some discomfort in the leading vehicles, and so the REP was then typically marshalled in the middle of a 12-car train.

 

Southern Region train planners being a clever lot, and the engineering having been designed to be as compatible as possible with other vehicles, the TCs found themselves being used on other routes, including as you say Cardiff, and Waterloo -Salisbury, as well as the Kenny Belle from Clapham Junction. Extension of the third rail to Weymouth in the late 80s, together with the arrival of the 5-WES (Class 442 if you must) spelt the end of the TC's natural environment.

 

Before the TCs were used, the usual maximum number of passenger vehicles propelled in regular service in the UK was just 2, while the TCs were intended to - and did - operate as 8 cars being propelled. Southern innovation!

[Gwiwer]

Adding just a little to Olddudders' excellent précis of the 4TC units it was for most of their lives normal to have the REP at the London end and two 4TC units at the "country" end. The use of a REP in the middle was short-lived as it prevented 8 car trains running on to Weymouth in busy times.

 

There were also three 3TC units (without the TF vehicle) which formed part of the original build of 1967 electric stock for that route. These were intended to be used in trains where a locomotive might work an all-trailer formation to Waterloo such as on a boat train duty and require a locomotive at each end while in the platform to shunt or return. 13 vehicles (in theory loco+4+4+3TC+loco) is the maximum which could fit within the signals at the London end. In practice that operation was seldom if ever actually employed as the SR maintained loose-coupled Mk1 rakes for boat train use and the 3TC units were used as substitutes for 4TC's as needed. This gave the fairly regular sight of 11-car trains on Waterloo - Bournemouth duties though the 3TC was never (that I know of) sent on to Weymouth alone owing to its lack of first class accommodation.

 

Those units, 301 - 303, were augmented to become 4TC sets when further TF coaches were converted and a small additional batch of REP and TC units created for enhanced services.

 

They have also been seen regularly on diverted Bournemouth line trains between Salisbury (Laverstock Loop) and Redbridge via Nursling or Eastleigh via Chandlersford, and Woking - Fareham - Southampton and have made many trips off the SR on railtours. They have run on London Underground lines including around the Circle Line and TfL still has a rake of TC coaches in stock for occasional charter use, sometimes behind steam.

[lapford34102]

Hi,

Just to belatedly add to the comprehensive info about TC's etc already put on here.

The Bomo electrification was done on a very tight budget that had to cover track, signalling, power supply as well as stock hence a lot of recycling. They also successfully argued that with electrification they could have very high utilisation of stock.

At the start they had 15 REP's and it became quickly apparent that the theory didn't quite match the reality hence in VEP's destined for the Central Div got hijacked and became the 8 VAB. In theory it should have been able to handle a 4TC as well but I never saw it. It tended to be limited to London -Bomo peak services.

It's right the 3TC were included so that an 11 car TC and loco could fit into Waterloo. What's often overlooked is that at the beginning not all trains were intended to be REP powered. Travelling on the line a lot 67-69 you were never quite sure what awaited you at Waterloo, or Bomo for that matter in the early days. It wasn't unusual to have to detrain at Bomo when London bound, walk up the platform and get on a REP/TC formation - stunning acceleration. Other trains - Two ED's pushing an 11 set - Fun, One TC Crompton and a 3TC+4TC - OK, 11 car TC with an ED in the middle, Aug 67 - never had that one explained as you could sit anywhere. Incidentally a Summer Sat train to Swanage was timetabled for a 4VEP/4TC/TC Crompton. VEP came off at Bomo. Reason - limited paths out of Waterloo. We even had a big ED (74) at Weymouth on a parcels. Only ever got pushed by a big ED once, pity.

 

In '73 they got 4 more REP's,finally upped the 3TC's to 4 coaches and by then had more VEP's than the 20 they started with, things finally settled down. However for anyone interested in the summer/autumn of 67 Bomo saw HAP's, EPB's, and CEP's. I think there was a regular HAP turn but the others were one off's. I seem to recall some limits as the line was 750v from Brookwood (?)when the rest of the network was 650v.

 

Cheers

Stu

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Ah the REPs and the TCs. My nan used to live down in New Milton between Southampton and Bournemouth. When we went to see her the journey would entail getting on a Portsmouth train at Shoreham, then changing at either Portsmouth & Southsea or Fratton. If we were lucky we could go to Worthing and get the Cardiff as far as Southampton, otherwise we got the Pompey - Cardiff as that was more frequent, then we changed again at Southampton, as the Pompey-Southampton line was not electrified in those days. Then it was either a CIG or a VEP to New Milton from there. One day we were waiting there for our train back to Southampton and a REP came screaming through pushing two TCs. I remember the speed of it and all the leaves being stirred up by the turbulence. Then our train pulled in, which was a 73 hauling a pair of TCs from Bournemouth so we could get back to Southampton, then our 33 and 5 mk1s back to Worthing (iirc) and then the stopper back to Shoreham-by-Sea. What great days those were.

[Gwiwer]

Stu - the original order was for 11 Rep, 28 4TC, 3 3TC and 20 Vep units (not 15 Reps as you mention); 3012 / 3 were a later order and had 3014 / 5 added on as a second extra order. 301-3 became 429 -431 with three all-new conversions taking the fleet to 34 4TCs.

 

Alex - Cigs were very uncommon on the Bournemouth line. They would not have appeared at all until the 1972 deliveries from 7337 on were on the Pompey Direct; from then they had very occasional peak workings to Bournemouth and also covered the summer Saturday Waterloo - Lymington through trains (8Cig).

 

The 8Vab 8001 was formed from coaches out of 7739, 7741 and 7742 with the spares stored from almost new at Eastleigh. IIRC one of those had a slight bump with another which in effect allowed the release of the undamaged coaches for the Vab project.

 

The story of the Bournemouth line is well away from the OT so perhaps a Mod could assist in transferring these posts to a new topic so we can continue.

[Southernman46]

This is eveloping into an interesting thread

 

Mentioned previously above "Not exactly new units, being endowed with previous-generation underframes I think,"

 

With typical SR ingenuity - all were converted from looc-hauled MK1 coaching stock - I did once see a list of the previous identities (In an old Platform 5 coaching stock book I think).

 

REP's were great - same HP as a Deltic and capable of melting the traction system - it was necessary to hang TC's on them just to stop them going too fast............

[Oldddudders]

REP's were great - same HP as a Deltic and capable of melting the traction system - it was necessary to hang TC's on them just to stop them going too fast............

When new, there were lots of stories about the speeds obtained by REP drivers, many of whom must have been recently re-trained from steam, where urging on your steed was a rather more skilled activity! ISTR a figure of 123 mph being quoted by a colleague who'd heard from close to the (management) source.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

 

 

Alex - Cigs were very uncommon on the Bournemouth line. They would not have appeared at all until the 1972 deliveries from 7337 on were on the Pompey Direct; from then they had very occasional peak workings to Bournemouth and also covered the summer Saturday Waterloo - Lymington through trains (8Cig).

 

 

That's what it probably was then. I remember it being a CIG west of Soton. I can't remember where it was going though. Thats the trouble of trying to remember back to being 5 years old... Still, I can remember that REP speeding through as clearly as if it was last week...

 

 

 

[D6975]

The REP/TC conversion program had an intereting side effect.

Because certain types of MK1 were required for the conversions and the Southern didn't have enough of them, they had to trade with other regions to get what they wanted.

This led to green MK1s appearing on services in Scotland amongst other places until repaints were arranged. I've got a book with a shot of a green Mk 1 on a service leaving Ayr.

[Gwiwer]

There are many logs, some taken by highly skilled recorders, of REP units achieving the "ton". With the horses installed roughly equal to a class 55 Deltic which was designed to haul 12 coaches at that speed, but with the traction characteristics of a straight electric which can exert a much greater effort over much more of its speed range than can any diesel, it wasn't that hard.

 

Many of the drivers in the earlier days would have retrained from steam and of course signed the various diesel classes used in the area as well. There was a very well known trend in the last days of steam to get as much out of it as could be got. Numerous unofficial speeds were claimed. The same quickly became true of the new electric traction. I have never claimed to be a skilled train recorder but with stopwatch in hand and concentrating on mileposts I have clocked 102 on several occasions and 103 once. The speedometers in the intermediate driving cabs could be a good guide but the angle at which one viewed them it wasn't possible to confirm with accuracy the maximum indicated speed.

 

REP+TC was always a recipe for sparks to fly - in more ways than one; a full 12-car train took a little longer to whisk up to the limit or above but it was certainly done. When a REP was moved alone under its own power there were restrictions applied to prevent it blowing the circuit breakers. I believe it had to remain below weak field or have at least one motor cut out.

[SRman]

It was also pointed out in one publication that, in theory, the REPs could be coupled and run in multiple with any of the other SR EP units but, in practice, if this was done they would have blown every circuit-breaker in the vicinity!

 

Somewhere in my bookshelves there is a recorded run with a 4REP + 4TC combination that (it is claimed) reached just over 106 mph, although this was quite unofficial. Since the officially recorded maximum for a third rail unit is (or, at the very least, was until recently) 106-point-something with a class 442, which also used the electrical gear from the REPs, that speed claim could quite possibly be legitimate.

 

Whatever the truth, for such "uninspiring" units (as much of the press referred to them) they had the all the makings for the stuff of legends!

[Dagworth]

While not a REP I have driven a 4CAP at over a ton. ECS move from Vic to Rochester IIRC. Once we got past Swanley the thing just flew and Farlingham Road viaduct (on a slight curve and limited to 80MPH) was taken at 105MPH. That was with a minder driver in the cab too, and before I passed out as a driver proper.

 

Andi

[Ian J.]

All this talk of REPs and TCs reminds me of just how rough they could be. I remember on a trip from Poole to London once back in the mid 80s that I was attempting to get to the buffet some cars up the train as it was passing through Eastleigh. To say that was a way to gain your 'sea legs' is not an understatement!

 

I've also seen such trains run at full pelt through Eastleigh, and the swaying of the train has to be seen to be believed. Somewhere I imagine someone has footage of them doing that, but I've not found such a thing on YouTube yet.

[Fat Controller]

The REP/TC conversion program had an intereting side effect.

Because certain types of MK1 were required for the conversions and the Southern didn't have enough of them, they had to trade with other regions to get what they wanted.

This led to green MK1s appearing on services in Scotland amongst other places until repaints were arranged. I've got a book with a shot of a green Mk 1 on a service leaving Ayr.

Not just Mk1 stock, either- some Bulleid stock also travelled north, whilst some Thompson stock was sent to Paddington - Birkenhead services to release Mk1 stock.

[Ceptic]

Some interesting youtube footage posted on another, earlier thread, but worth repeating, all the same.

4-REP + 4-TC, 3 x 4--VEP, 4-CIG + 4-BIG + 4-CIG, etc. at Bournemouth 1986.

 

 

Regards.

[robertcwp]

Of the three 4 Vep units that provided vehicles for the 8 Vab, I believe one, 7739, never ran in service as such as the two spare driving trailers were used to replace accident-damaged vehicles in other units. Do any photos of 7739 exist? I believe it was delivered as such prior to the formation of the 8 Vab.

 

I only saw the 8 Vab once, at Wimbledon depot. It was carrying a strange headboard on the gangway on one end.

 

Photos of the 8 Vab in blue/grey are rare, though the Captial Transport colour album on Southern electrics includes one. It was repainted in 1972.

 

The 3TC units survived long enough to carry blue/grey too. I recall seeing one at Clapham Junction and was rather confused as I thought EMUs were 4-coach sets and that one had a vehicle missing.

 

Most of the 1967 Bournemouth stock was repainted blue/grey pretty quickly, except the Veps, where blue remained standard until 1971, apart from 7808 which was the trial unit in blue/grey from new.

 

Here is a Hap/Vep combination reversing out of Branksome station to go to Bournemouth depot:

 

Branksome

 

In passing, how many other SR stations had 3rd rail but no regular electric service (or any electric service) for around 20 years, apart from Branksome?

[John M Upton]

The 3TC units survived long enough to carry blue/grey too. I recall seeing one at Clapham Junction and was rather confused as I thought EMUs were 4-coach sets and that one had a vehicle missing.

 

I was watching an old VHS(!) of Crompton workings and that featured two TC sets in the formation, both in NSE livery but I had to rewind the tape just to double check I was not seeing things, sure enough there were seven cars in the formation with the 33 at the back, the first TC had only three cars so they weren't unknown to run as a 3-TC presumably when the TCF was out of use for maintenance I presume.

 

In passing, how many other SR stations had 3rd rail but no regular electric service (or any electric service) for around 20 years, apart from Branksome?

 

Newhaven Marine springs to mind, indeed it still fits into that category. It still had a parliamentary train even now but no one can actually join or alight there anymore due to the dangerous state of the station buildings, a taxi would be provided for any intending passenger to meet the train at Newhaven Town. All thanks to the lunacy that is the rail regulations dreamt up by some 'not on this planet' civil servant in a locked basement in Whitehall I presume!!

[jamie92208]

Reading this thread brings back many happy memories of an 8 month exile in London in 1971. I loved watching the REP's which as well as having the same power as a deltic had a similarity in styling as there were those curved equipment covers under the underframe that reminded me of how a deltic's body curved outwards. The only units I like better were the 4 Cor's that were working the reading/guildford lines and I used to see them hurrying through Ashford (Middlesex) with the corridor connections banging from side to side. Clapham junction was great with the early 4 SUBs, the 5 Bel's the 4 Cor's the REP's and warship's on the Exeter's. It almost made up for beieng away from the North.

 

Jamie

[Gwiwer]

Crompton workings and that featured two TC sets in the formation, both in NSE livery

 

That sounds as though it is late enough to have been in the REP - WES transition period. In those days, with REPs being released one or two at a time to yield up their traction gear to the new units, NSE reached a situation where "anything went". Official reformations were commonplace and daily extempore formations far from unknown in order to have enough stock for service. Two 4TC units missing their first class vehicles would have been perfectly possible.

 

Those were the days of the 5TCB, 8MIG and the return of the 3TC all on very short-term basis. I seem to recall some REP units were also reformed into 6REP sets briefly.

[pete_mcfarlane]

It was also pointed out in one publication that, in theory, the REPs could be coupled and run in multiple with any of the other SR EP units but, in practice, if this was done they would have blown every circuit-breaker in the vicinity!

I *think* a REP could work with a single MLV/2-EPB/2-HAP without tripping the circuit breakers. I doubt if this combination happened very often in service!

[Dave47549]

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Edited September 29, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[pete_mcfarlane]

All thanks to the lunacy that is the rail regulations dreamt up by some 'not on this planet' civil servant in a locked basement in Whitehall I presume!!

Presumably it's cheaper to run one train a day than to fund an Parliamentary Bill to get the original act of Parliament authorising the station repealed or amended. Until the relevant bit of legislation is changed then the station has to be kept open by law (BR got caught out y this when they tried to close the Bluebell line).

[Southernman46]

While not a REP I have driven a 4CAP at over a ton. ECS move from Vic to Rochester IIRC. Once we got past Swanley the thing just flew and Farlingham Road viaduct (on a slight curve and limited to 80MPH) was taken at 105MPH. That was with a minder driver in the cab too, and before I passed out as a driver proper.

 

Andi

 

 

 

Ah - now don't get me started on doing 100+ down Sole Street bank with CEP's - Oh I have !!

[robertcwp]

Newhaven Marine springs to mind, indeed it still fits into that category. It still had a parliamentary train even now but no one can actually join or alight there anymore due to the dangerous state of the station buildings, a taxi would be provided for any intending passenger to meet the train at Newhaven Town. All thanks to the lunacy that is the rail regulations dreamt up by some 'not on this planet' civil servant in a locked basement in Whitehall I presume!!

I thought of Newhaven Marine but that had/has services, albeit not many. Though Branksome had regular services, they were all diesel until the Weymouth electrification. The only electric trains Branksome saw for around 20 years were stock moves to/from Bournemouth depot, plus possibly an electro-diesel working.

 

Prior to the Bournemouth electrification, the third rail extended west along the main line beyond Pirbright Junction to the now removed Sturt Lane Junction, where the curve round to Frimley was electrified and had a peak hour service into the 1960s. I think only the slow lines west from Woking were electrified in the 1930s.

[robertcwp]

The attached word document has some basic details for REPs & TCs, including original formations & identities of the converted hauled stock. Hope it's of use to someone.

 

Dave

Note that the buffet cars for Reps 3012-5 were converted from 19xx series RU whereas those for 3001-11 were converted from 17xx series RB.

 

There was a brief period c1974 when at least one Rep ran minus buffet and with one of the RMBs equipped with jumpers etc between it and a 4TC. I recall seeing the combination passing through New Malden.

 

What was the rating of the 4 Rep motors? I have often seen 400 hp quoted but also 365 hp, the difference compared to Class 73 being a lower rating for the Rep on account of not having traction motor blowers. Is there any substance to this?