Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[rapidoandy]

8 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Oh yeah - those were the days!

 

That is my point - if you didn't experience it, it is virtually impossible to accurately visualise it.

 

Remember - BR provided individual reading lights, focussed on the book, to enable one to read at night - (or even on overcast days) - even when the main compartment light was on.

 

A generation of Sherlock Holmes etc. films, with scenes set in brilliantly lit compartments, have produced a totally false impression amongst the younger / middle-aged groups of modellers.

 

Authentic coach lighting should produce  a just-discernable dull glow when viewed from a couple of metres away. On a clear night, back in the day, you could JUST tell if the lights were on in a passing train from, say, the top of a cutting edge or an over / underbridge.

 

CJI.

Well you will be pleased to know then that we have had a number of complaints from modellers about the lack of lumins emitted from the Dyno car and that it was too dim in their view.

 

Just because a Sherlock Holmes film (whatever that is) was too bright does not mean everyone in the world who ‘didn’t experience it’ cannot comprehend what it may have looked like.

 

Andy

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

Just because a Sherlock Holmes film (whatever that is) was too bright does not mean everyone in the world who ‘didn’t experience it’ cannot comprehend what it may have looked like.

 

Andy

 

I am not trying to be elitist, or to 'dis' modern models, but it is a fact that the current obsession with interior lighting in models is the main thing that 'grates' excruciatingly with those of us who were around at the time in question; (don't get me started on 'sound').

 

If you can see it's there in daylight, it's too bright; sorry - but that's a fact.

 

I understand that manufacturers provide what most customers demand - but that doesn't make it authentic.

 

CJI.

Edited April 14, 2023 by cctransuk

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

If that proves to be the case - the lights will be too bright.

 

Even if you were on the platform, it would have been nigh-on impossible to recognise a friend in a stationary lit coach after dark.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear that many younger modellers have no concept of the inefficiency of coach lighting during the steam era.

 

As it's simulating gas lighting, how about we just say it's fine, repeatedly and all will be good..?

 

[Hat, coat and door located...]

[Clearwater]

36 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am not trying to be elitist, or to 'dis' modern models, but it is a fact that the current obsession with interior lighting in models is the main thing that 'grates' excruciatingly with those of us who were around at the time in question; (don't get me started on 'sound').

 

If you can see it's there in daylight, it's too bright; sorry - but that's a fact.

 

I understand that manufacturers provide what most customers demand - but that doesn't make it authentic.

 

CJI.

 

How does the lighting compare on heritage lines?  For us u50s, that's the only way we can even get close to what steam era lighting would have been like.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

Well you will be pleased to know then that we have had a number of complaints from modellers about the lack of lumins emitted from the Dyno car and that it was too dim in their view.

 

Just because a Sherlock Holmes film (whatever that is) was too bright does not mean everyone in the world who ‘didn’t experience it’ cannot comprehend what it may have looked like.

 

Andy

Clearly, some want coach lighting that is evident under all circumstances irrespective of realism. Perhaps a case of "I'm paying for working lights so I want to see them working?"

 

For the rest of us, a coat of thinned black paint over the LEDs should be a straightforward way to introduce the required authenticity.

 

In this particular case, it's academic, as I (currently) have no need of a B-set, whether lit or not.

 

FWIW, the only lit coaches I own are Hornby Pullmans with working table lamps, and, yes, those are on the bright side, too. With the Hatton's 6-wheelers, offered the choice, I bought the unlit versions.

 

John

Edited April 14, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

 

How does the lighting compare on heritage lines?  For us u50s, that's the only way we can even get close to what steam era lighting would have been like.

In my experience, during daylight, on heritage lines without tunnels, the lights are seldom operative, but many preserved Mk.1s received modernised (brighter) lighting before disposal by the big railway, anyway.

 

The reference to the overhead lighting in steam days being insufficient to read by is spot-on, though. It was enough to allow passengers to get on and off safely but not much more. There was a switch labelled "bright/dim" above the gangway-side door but "dim/very dim" would better have stated the reality!  

 

John

[Ian Hargrave]

Doesn’t it all depend upon the lighting conditions in your layout environment  ? In a space where natural light is at a premium internal coach lighting can bring a sense of life to the system. To replicate the drab twilight world of forties and fifties BR compartment enclosure travel is a big ask.Thus we now resort to the practicality of LED installation if such is one’s preference.viz the age of flickering fireboxes etc.. As one who did more rail travel “back in the day”…given my continually advancing clock…than probably any of you,I have no problem with it.  After all we are in a model world striving for a semblance of reality. 

[Clearwater]

I'm on the SVR tomorrow.  If I can, I'll ride in one of the older sets of carriages.  Will be intrigued to see how bright the lighting is in the tunnel section.

 

I am aware older carriages are darker.  Personally, I'm not bothered by lights on model train coaches.  If I've paid £75 for a coach, I want to see it.  I don't want to switch the lights off in the room and just see the carriage lights!

[Ian Hargrave]

6 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

I'm on the SVR tomorrow.  If I can, I'll ride in one of the older sets of carriages.  Will be intrigued to see how bright the lighting is in the tunnel section.

 

I am aware older carriages are darker.  Personally, I'm not bothered by lights on model train coaches.  If I've paid £75 for a coach, I want to see it.  I don't want to switch the lights off in the room and just see the carriage lights!

 
Hope it stops raining. Looking on the webcam,you have Gresleys & Staniers running. Taw Valley is again out of synch in sunshine & black. Enjoy.

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Not just realistic faces...

 

This morning, Mike, @The Stationmaster, told me a horrifying story about what some folk did out of the windows of B-Sets on long distance journeys! 

 

This is NOT something that Modelu will ever want to scan or print, nor something you would want to paint!!!

 

I'll let him explain...

 

😉

4-SUBs, 4-EPBs and similar too. You just had to make sure you knew which side the third rail was.

[acg5324]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

4-SUBs, 4-EPBs and similar too. You just had to make sure you knew which side the third rail was.

…..and be careful that the door droplight didn’t spring up!

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Doesn’t it all depend upon the lighting conditions in your layout environment  ? In a space where natural light is at a premium internal coach lighting can bring a sense of life to the system. To replicate the drab twilight world of forties and fifties BR compartment enclosure travel is a big ask.Thus we now resort to the practicality of LED installation if such is one’s preference.viz the age of flickering fireboxes etc.. As one who did more rail travel “back in the day”…given my continually advancing clock…than probably any of you,I have no problem with it.  After all we are in a model world striving for a semblance of reality. 

 

Though, if your layout lighting is dim, a more realistic level of carriage lighting would surely look better anyway.

 

Under many/most circumstances, an absence of lighting will closer represent the reality of steam-age travel in model form than a drastically over-bright installation. 

 

Based on their admirably restrained use of "firebox flicker" in the Hunslets, I'm trusting that Rapido will avoid the near "welding-set" levels of coach lighting incorporated by some.

 

They will, hopefully, also include an on/off switch for those of us unpersuaded by the modern marketing mantra that  as soon as something can be done, it becomes essential to our happiness and wellbeing!

 

John

Edited April 15, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[St Enodoc]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Though, if your layout lighting is dim, a more realistic level of carriage lighting would surely look better anyway.

 

Under many/most circumstances, an absence of lighting will closer represent the reality of steam-age travel in model form than a drastically over-bright installation. 

 

Based on their admirably restrained use of "firebox flicker" in the Hunslets, I'm trusting that Rapido will avoid the near "welding-set" levels of coach lighting incorporated by some.

 

They will, hopefully, also include an on/off switch for those of us unpersuaded by the modern marketing mantra that  as soon as something can be done, it becomes essential to our happiness and wellbeing!

 

John

...and don't mention brightly-lit signal boxes (oops, I just did).

[VIA185]

Surely, the point is about added value? Since the days of the first scale length Tri-ang Hornby Mk1s it has been the practice to include a carriage interior - seats and partitions at least. In many carriages it's hardly visible, so what's the point? Illuminate the interior and it can be seen. Paint the seats the right colour, put lamps and place-settings on tables and you've got a ready-to-run model that's up to the standards of the scratch-builders. With the cost of tooling-up models these days, and bringing them to market, you need a top-notch model to justify the final price that you'll need to charge and an inexpensive-to-obtain-and-fit lighting system helps to justify that final price. "You can't see the interior, so what's the point of including it?" The answer is, because a bare, basic 1950s-style model that only the oldest of us will remember, simply won't sell enough to be viable. (CJL)

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

Surely, the point is about added value? Since the days of the first scale length Tri-ang Hornby Mk1s it has been the practice to include a carriage interior - seats and partitions at least. In many carriages it's hardly visible, so what's the point? Illuminate the interior and it can be seen. Paint the seats the right colour, put lamps and place-settings on tables and you've got a ready-to-run model that's up to the standards of the scratch-builders. With the cost of tooling-up models these days, and bringing them to market, you need a top-notch model to justify the final price that you'll need to charge and an inexpensive-to-obtain-and-fit lighting system helps to justify that final price. "You can't see the interior, so what's the point of including it?" The answer is, because a bare, basic 1950s-style model that only the oldest of us will remember, simply won't sell enough to be viable. (CJL)

Up to a point, Chris, but (in my view) not at the expense of authenticity or realism.

[Harlequin]

Since the brightness of interior lighting is such a subjective thing, and requirements will vary depending on where and when the stock is running, the answer is simple, isn't it?

 

GIve the owner control over the brightness. That's not difficult to do with LEDs for either DC or DCC operation.

 

On DCC the decoder can already do the necessary (I think) and for DC you just need a little square wave generator with adjustable mark-space ratio on the lighting circuit board.

 

[VIA185]

10 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Hope it stops raining. Looking on the webcam,you have Gresleys & Staniers running. Taw Valley is again out of synch in sunshine & black. Enjoy.

Can't wait for the day they return it to its proper livery. It's a personal thing, but I wouldn't cross the road to see a nonsense livery - especially on a locomotive I remember seeing in service. (CJL)

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

Surely, the point is about added value? Since the days of the first scale length Tri-ang Hornby Mk1s it has been the practice to include a carriage interior - seats and partitions at least. In many carriages it's hardly visible, so what's the point? Illuminate the interior and it can be seen. Paint the seats the right colour, put lamps and place-settings on tables and you've got a ready-to-run model that's up to the standards of the scratch-builders. With the cost of tooling-up models these days, and bringing them to market, you need a top-notch model to justify the final price that you'll need to charge and an inexpensive-to-obtain-and-fit lighting system helps to justify that final price. "You can't see the interior, so what's the point of including it?" The answer is, because a bare, basic 1950s-style model that only the oldest of us will remember, simply won't sell enough to be viable. (CJL)

I think the debate centres on whether incorporating a feature at an unrealistic level as standard actually constitutes added value from a modeller's viewpoint.

 

Added play value for the toy market, I accept (e.g. Hornby's TT:120, Railroad Mk1s and generics), but I doubt those are the customers in the market for super-detailed coaches in this price-bracket. 

 

Offering a separate lighting kit or a facility to dim fitted lighting to an authentic level is fine; those who don't want it don't have to tolerate it.

 

 

John

Edited April 15, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Hal Nail]

35 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Offering a separate lighting kit or a facility to dim fitted lighting to an authentic level is fine; those who don't want it don't have to tolerate it

They could take this to the ultimate and charge extra not to fit lighting, saving us removing it 

 

Win win :)

[Pteremy]

It doesn't matter which part of the modelling spectrum you are on, the 'play' enjoyment results from a suspension of disbelief, and - as these exchanges demonstrate - we all have different levels of tolerance.  

 

On lighting specifically I don't aspire to having everything lit. But I would quite like to replicate the 'final train of the day', wending its way home through dark countryside. 

[Chris116]

Be careful if you think that preservation carriage lighting is a good guide to what was the norm pre 1965.

 

I have regularly worked the Mid Hants Railway Real Ale Train over the last 20 years and due to problems with the batteries not recharging enough LED bulbs were fitted. They don't drain the batteries as quickly which means there is light at the end of the evening and they provide a brighter light throughout the evening. So a win win situation for railway and passengers but not actually how things were in days gone by.

 

The other thing is that on a bright summer evening if you walk down the platform you can't tell if the lights are on or off which is the main reason why I don't bother with lights in my model coaches.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

 

The other thing is that on a bright summer evening if you walk down the platform you can't tell if the lights are on or off which is the main reason why I don't bother with lights in my model coaches.

 

 

That's so even with modern(ish) fluorescent-lit main-line stock.

 

Observing our usual Class 159 units passing from my modelling room window, the lighting doesn't really show up before dusk unless it's a pretty grim day, diverted IET's ditto.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[checkrail]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

They will, hopefully, also include an on/off switch for those of us unpersuaded by the modern marketing mantra that  as soon as something can be done, it becomes essential to our happiness and wellbeing!

Yes please - or advice re which wire to snip to disable.  Acquiring one vehicle with lighting almost obliges one to go back and add it to all in the interests of consistency.  No way!  But it's a nice thing to have for those who want it.  

[Phatbob]

5 hours ago, acg5324 said:

…..and be careful that the door droplight didn’t spring up!

...and be aware that if "water" started running accross the windows of your compartment when it wasn't raining  that you needed to shut the droplight on that side PDQ!

[57xx]

20 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Well you will be pleased to know then that we have had a number of complaints from modellers about the lack of lumins emitted from the Dyno car and that it was too dim in their view.

 

Where these the same people complaining there was no giraffe sticking out of the top?