Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Star-rider said:

I’ve attempted conversions of these before but found it to be more hassle than building a comet kit, but I have purchased old "B-sets”* for less than a tenner in the past as a source of acceptable well running 7’ bogies complete with wheels and couplings. The bodies are lying in the back of the loft somewhere and may end up in a plastic shredder one day.

 

Those bodies are a relatively easy cut-and-shut into a Collett slip coach - been there!

 

John Isherwood.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to be late to the party but Warleyitis struck me rather hard so I'm way behind.

 

Coming along nicely is the watchword for me but whether or not I will buy depends in my case more on layout location relevance than anything else so time and delving will tell.

 

As far as paying more for bells and whistles at higher prices is concerned there seem to be two factors at work.  The first is whether or not people have the money and the current growth area for available disposable income is in the mid 20s - mid 30s age range provided that they are not in mortgage territory (and many of that group aren't).   Similarly mortgage free older folk with decent pension incomes, or still employed with decent incomes, will be well up the list of those with disposable cash and you can increase that cash pile by selling older models etc.  sSo in the current climate there is still 'money about' and no doubt many buyers will want what they perceive as 'the best' for their money.

 

Now what about middle detail level compared with hi-fi?   Having spoken to various people in the trade plus manufacturers the simple answer is that if there is a choice of detail/sophistication level in a range of the same type of loco the ones that sell out first are the top detail etc level with the  'cooking' version falling well behind.  I doubt that it will be any different with coaches because the market craves - and still is ready to pay for - 'novelty' and 'that bit extra'.  If somebody can bump up the price of a model by painting the cab roof a different colour from the version they have been selling for some time and actually sell the thing  - at an increased price of £10 - then it is clear there are folk out there willing and able to pay.  

[Pteremy]

On 17/12/2022 at 11:50, Pteremy said:

Yes, that makes sense now. So the only remaining issue to clarify (I think) is whether the E145s would also have had 4 truss rods? 

There is a good official photograph of an E145 on the GWR Org site

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/b-set-notes.html

 

Comparing this to the Rapido livery illustrations (based on official diagrams) it now seems clear to me that the adoption of 9ft bogies on the E145 required a modified/different underframe. The central truss 'rectangle' looks to be identical. But the slanted truss rods are shorter/steeper (on an E145), on an E145 the Battery/Tool(?) boxes on both sides move slightly inwards, towards the centre of the underframe, and most obviously on an E140 there are spaces between the bogie, dynamo and the nearest battery box, but on the E145 the dynamo is behind the battery box. Which does not answer the 2/4 truss rod point, but does indicate that a E140 to E145 conversion does involve more than just the bogies. But equally it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[rapidoandy]

Having compared the works drawings I can say they are different in many ways…

Edited December 29, 2022 by rapidoandy

[Pteremy]

10 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Having compared the works drawings I can say they are different in many ways…

What a tease! Are we just talking about the underframe or are there subtle differences between the bodies as well? Other than the underframe differences I have mentioned are there any other material differences, from a modelling point of view? 

[Pteremy]

So, I am delighted to say that I have found a picture of W6372W, one half of Taunton E140 B Set 8, at Barnstaple Victoria in 6/60. It is in unlined maroon. So that's 1 of the 3 sets I have on preorder evidenced (allowing for renumbering). And I can live with a crimson E140 set on the grounds of high probability. So it is only the lined maroon I would prefer to convert to E145, if it is reasonable straightforward to do so. (There is photographic/written evidence of Bristol E145 B Sets 30 & 35, at South Molton and Barnstaple Victoria respectively, in 6/60.)

[RapidoCorbs]

45 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

So, I am delighted to say that I have found a picture of W6372W, one half of Taunton E140 B Set 8, at Barnstaple Victoria in 6/60. It is in unlined maroon. So that's 1 of the 3 sets I have on preorder evidenced (allowing for renumbering). And I can live with a crimson E140 set on the grounds of high probability. So it is only the lined maroon I would prefer to convert to E145, if it is reasonable straightforward to do so. (There is photographic/written evidence of Bristol E145 B Sets 30 & 35, at South Molton and Barnstaple Victoria respectively, in 6/60.)

 

 

Oooh, would you be able to let me know where you found the photo Pteremy? Would be good to cross reference.
For unlined maroon examples, I have seen W6456W with loco 5509 and an unidentified set in company with loco 4562 (and a further set at Bodmin with 4552), but I don't think I have W6372W in the reference folder.

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

 

Oooh, would you be able to let me know where you found the photo Pteremy? Would be good to cross reference.
 

There are various photos of the train - 6372 + E140 B Set (Unlined M) (?W6372W)/E148 + 3 Vans in Withered Arm (Barnfield, p37 & text), Huxtable v2 (p389 &90), Rlwy Bylines13/3 (p107 &8) which I believe to be the late running 8.03am T-B (Set 81))(6/60) but the number I discern from Huxtable p390. 

[Pteremy]

I have read that B Sets reached Ilfracombe from Barnstaple, but I am not sure that I have previously seen photographic evidence of this. But the attached is a crop of a scanned photograph in the Blencowe collection (neg no 22097) courtesy of eBay. 

 

It shows SR N mogul 31833 arriving at Barnstaple Jct with a train from Ilfracombe. But the coaches are ex GWR - by my estimation an E87 Brake Composite and a E140 or 145 B Set. (This 3 coach combination - BCK/BSet - was a standard formation for local services on the Taunton-Barnstaple line, although often strengthened for the summer timetable.)

 

There is no date to the photograph but you can make out 'British Railways' on the tender. The subject could be a local T-B service extended to Ilfracombe on a Summer Saturday, with both SR and WR locomotives possible. But there was also a solitary 'through' service on Winter Saturdays, behind an SR locomotive. 

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

This month's newsletter has this new image posted of the seating on this model.

 

[Pteremy]

OMG. The Modelu passenger pack(s) necessary to do justice to this is/are going to cost more than the coaches!

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

OMG. The Modelu passenger pack(s) necessary to do justice to this is/are going to cost more than the coaches!

 

TBH, through windows that size, you won't be able to tell them apart from the "hundred-for-a-fiver" Chinese-made figures....

 

John

Edited April 14, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

TBH, through windows that size, you won't be able to tell them apart from the "hundred-for-a-fiver" Chinese-made figures....

 

John

 

Quite - viz my comment re interior detail up-thread.

 

CJI.

[57xx]

Something crossed my mind about these, have Rapido found the elusive drawings for the short inner buffers that no one else seems to know the whereabouts of?

[Pteremy]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

TBH, through windows that size, you won't be able to tell them apart from the "hundred-for-a-fiver" Chinese-made figures....

 

John

I am not sure that is true - the curse of 'rivet counting' is that once you know something is there (or not) it is difficult to forget. It would be great to have a few realistic faces looking out rather than generic blobs.

 

But maybe Modelu could do some 'semi flats', figures with some realistic surface relief but far less substance, to populate the centre of the coach.

[57xx]

7 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

I am not sure that is true - the curse of 'rivet counting' is that once you know something is there (or not) it is difficult to forget. It would be great to have a few realistic faces looking out rather than generic blobs.

 

But maybe Modelu could do some 'semi flats', figures with some realistic surface relief but far less substance, to populate the centre of the coach.

 

And very short legs.

[Harlequin]

7 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

I am not sure that is true - the curse of 'rivet counting' is that once you know something is there (or not) it is difficult to forget. It would be great to have a few realistic faces looking out rather than generic blobs.

 

But maybe Modelu could do some 'semi flats', figures with some realistic surface relief but far less substance, to populate the centre of the coach.

 

Not just realistic faces...

 

This morning, Mike, @The Stationmaster, told me a horrifying story about what some folk did out of the windows of B-Sets on long distance journeys! 

 

This is NOT something that Modelu will ever want to scan or print, nor something you would want to paint!!!

 

I'll let him explain...

 

😉

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

I am not sure that is true - the curse of 'rivet counting' is that once you know something is there (or not) it is difficult to forget. It would be great to have a few realistic faces looking out rather than generic blobs.

 

But maybe Modelu could do some 'semi flats', figures with some realistic surface relief but far less substance, to populate the centre of the coach.

Unless you put them next to the windows you only actually see passenger figures as silhouettes in compartment stock and little more in corridor coaches with bigger windows. (Voice of experience).

 

I'm also undecided which looks worse, empty coaches running or populated ones in carriage sidings. The latter tend to be more noticeable because they aren't moving!

 

Years ago, a late pal of mine built a rake of coaches but ran out of seat mouldings toward the end. One coach entered service without, and nobody ever noticed!

 

He probably added them when he got some more, but I'm not entirely certain he ever did....

 

No less a modeller than David Jenkinson espoused not bothering with details you couldn't see on models being built to use, even in 7mm scale.

 

John

Edited April 14, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Not just realistic faces...

 

This morning, Mike, @The Stationmaster, told me a horrifying story about what some folk did out of the windows of B-Sets on long distance journeys! 

 

This is NOT something that Modelu will ever want to scan or print, nor something you would want to paint!!!

 

I'll let him explain...

 

😉

 

No need. Better than doing it on the floor! 😄

 

The plastic bag was a great invention.....

 

 

[Skinnylinny]

I suspect the working lighting might make the passenger population a little more obvious... That being said, I have found it worthwhile using some of the higher-end figures in my Hattons Genesis carriages (which will, for my needs, be getting a repaint!) as even without lights, the passengers are definitely visible.

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

I suspect the working lighting might make the passenger population a little more obvious...

 

If that proves to be the case - the lights will be too bright.

 

Even if you were on the platform, it would have been nigh-on impossible to recognise a friend in a stationary lit coach after dark.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear that many younger modellers have no concept of the inefficiency of coach lighting during the steam era.

 

CJI.

[Skinnylinny]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

If that proves to be the case - the lights will be too bright.

 

Even if you were on the platform, it would have been nigh-on impossible to recognise a friend in a stationary lit coach after dark.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear that many younger modellers have no concept of the inefficiency of coach lighting during the steam era.

 

CJI.

Perhaps so, although I will (again) point out that the two photographs there show an unlit carriage, with external lighting provided by a traditionally-Scottish overcast day.

Also, having researched said lighting myself as part of a personal project, I am very much familiar with the progression of carriage lighting from 2-candlepower oil lamps, through flat-flame and gas lighting. And yes, I know how bright a candle is, and a paraffin lamp. I've had to work by them from time to time (during power cuts!).

That being said, with the B-set, we are well into electric lighting, and while it ought not to be as bright as some models out there (some of which glow *through* the plastic bodyshell!), any additional amount of light in the carriage interior will make it easier to see what's inside.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Skinnylinny

[cctransuk]

31 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Perhaps so, although I will (again) point out that the two photographs there show an unlit carriage, with external lighting provided by a traditionally-Scottish overcast day.

Also, having researched said lighting myself as part of a personal project, I am very much familiar with the progression of carriage lighting from 2-candlepower oil lamps, through flat-flame and gas lighting. And yes, I know how bright a candle is, and a paraffin lamp. I've had to work by them from time to time (during power cuts!).

That being said, with the B-set, we are well into electric lighting, and while it ought not to be as bright as some models out there (some of which glow *through* the plastic bodyshell!), any additional amount of light in the carriage interior will make it easier to see what's inside.

 

May I enquire whether you travelled by rail at night during the BR steam era?

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

May I enquire whether you travelled by rail at night during the BR steam era?

 

A privilege denied to an increasing large proportion of RMWebbers. 

[cctransuk]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

A privilege denied to an increasing large proportion of RMWebbers. 

 

Oh yeah - those were the days!

 

That is my point - if you didn't experience it, it is virtually impossible to accurately visualise it.

 

Remember - BR provided individual reading lights, focussed on the book, to enable one to read at night - (or even on overcast days) - even when the main compartment light was on.

 

A generation of Sherlock Holmes etc. films, with scenes set in brilliantly lit compartments, have produced a totally false impression amongst the younger / middle-aged groups of modellers.

 

Authentic coach lighting should produce  a just-discernable dull glow when viewed from a couple of metres away. On a clear night, back in the day, you could JUST tell if the lights were on in a passing train from, say, the top of a cutting edge or an over / underbridge.

 

CJI.