Is track building making a come back

[hayfield]

The cost of C&L kits have been an issue for modellers for some time, but any comparison between C&L and British Finescale is totally unfair to both companies and products, both of these companies have their own cost structures. But these two companies do not compete with each other as they provide two differing products. If anything they complement each other

 

With British Finescale you do not get a machined Vee, you get two rails with machined ends. I must say for what you get from British Finescale is both of high quality and exceptionally well priced, but the products differ

 

Using a mixture of C&L and Exactoscale parts I can make a turnout far cheaper than either of the companies products. BUT building track is not about saving money but enjoying the process of track building especially where you are trying to mimic the prototype, where straight turnouts and crossings are the rare exception and even rarer when limited to a B7

 

British Finescale if anything completes with the latest Peco offerings, but more importantly brings Finescale to modellers with 00SF, EM & P4 offerings. It introduces modellers into to these finer scales and Wayne must be congratulated for this. But it also opens up a whole new dimension in wanting something closer to the prototype

 

Whilst Wayne can cope with doing everything in house I assume its easier to control the prices, the problem starts when Wayne gets too busy !!!

 

I would like to thank both Wayne and Phil for supporting our hobby

[brossard]

Track building is one of those boxes that railway modellers need to tick (along with soldering (brass kits), airbrushing and lining (I still haven't ticked off lining)).

 

In 0 gauge, Peco turnouts are pretty expensive and the choices limited (only a large radius turnout) so it was a no brainer for me to make my own. 

 

My other beef with Peco (all scales) is the enormous gap between blade and stock rail, I find that intolerable.  (I haven't had a chance to look closely at the BH turnouts nor the EM ones).

 

For kits, I don't think you need a fully manufactured crossing - this is the really expensive bit.  These things can be made by hand readily enough and you don't need expensive jigs either.  I confess that I did buy a C&L kit when I was starting out just to see what was in the bag.

 

John

 

 

[hayfield]

43 minutes ago, brossard said:

Track building is one of those boxes that railway modellers need to tick (along with soldering (brass kits), airbrushing and lining (I still haven't ticked off lining)).

 

In 0 gauge, Peco turnouts are pretty expensive and the choices limited (only a large radius turnout) so it was a no brainer for me to make my own. 

 

My other beef with Peco (all scales) is the enormous gap between blade and stock rail, I find that intolerable.  (I haven't had a chance to look closely at the BH turnouts nor the EM ones).

 

For kits, I don't think you need a fully manufactured crossing - this is the really expensive bit.  These things can be made by hand readily enough and you don't need expensive jigs either.  I confess that I did buy a C&L kit when I was starting out just to see what was in the bag.

 

John

 

 

 

John

 

I certainly agree that if you are using plastic timbers and chairs, you only have to fabricate the Vee not common crossing as if the rails are fabricated correctly the plastic chairs will hold them securely in place.

 

I am not sure I agree with you about the filing jigs, especially for the vee. As the society (EM & P4) jigs will not only accurately and quickly form the correct angle but hold the rails in place for soldering. I accept they could be viewed as expensive but can pay for themselves very quickly and once finished track building they fetch good money when sold on eBay

 

Like all tools if you look after them they will last years, I think I paid twenty something each for my jigs and being hardened steel last a lifetime

 

They do come up on eBay and every now and then they get hidden with other things and can be bought cheaply, but usually they get noticed

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

John

 

I certainly agree that if you are using plastic timbers and chairs, you only have to fabricate the Vee not common crossing as if the rails are fabricated correctly the plastic chairs will hold them securely in place.

 

I am not sure I agree with you about the filing jigs, especially for the vee. As the society (EM & P4) jigs will not only accurately and quickly form the correct angle but hold the rails in place for soldering. I accept they could be viewed as expensive but can pay for themselves very quickly and once finished track building they fetch good money when sold on eBay

 

Like all tools if you look after them they will last years, I think I paid twenty something each for my jigs and being hardened steel last a lifetime

 

They do come up on eBay and every now and then they get hidden with other things and can be bought cheaply, but usually they get noticed

 

LOL John, I think we've had this discussion before.  My turnouts are built on wooden timbers with Peco chairs, fixed with MEK.

 

All my crossings, vees and blades were made without jigs.  For code 124 rail I use a Dremel grinding wheel to remove the bulk of the material, followed by progressively finer files.  With practice, I am able to make these fairly quickly and accurately enough.

 

Everyone will have their own preferences but I guess my point is that learner turnout builders shouldn't think that these are absolutely necessary and that you can't build a turnout without them.

 

My layout doesn't require a lot of turnouts and they tend to be copies of Peco using their templates.  My crossover is a bit of an experiment and I made the turnouts from the Peco 00 medium radius template, blown up to 199% (to allow for the wrong gauge).  These work well with all the layout locomotives.

 

 

Handbuilt turnouts on the outside.  Peco in the middle, modified to dispense with that awful box and horrible blade spacing. 

 

Note the stretcher bars and there are two.  I never see handbuilt or otherwise turnouts with two stretchers.  Stretchers are from JLTRT and later MM1 models.  JLTRT is defunct and MM1 appears to be as well, so I will be exploring Ambis stretchers.

 

Having said all those nasty things about Peco, I did buy a half dozen Peco turnouts for a good price in an estate sale.

 

John

[martin_wynne]

48 minutes ago, hayfield said:

once finished track building they fetch good money when sold on eBay

 

Hi John,

 

They might not fetch such good prices after the next Templot release in a week or two. It will then be possible to FDM-print filing jigs for any angle from Templot 3D files:

 

 

 

Material cost for such a jig is about £1.50 if you have or know someone with an FDM 3D printer. Such printers can be had for the price of an 00 RTR locomotive. And used for a lot more than just filing jigs.

 

The jigs for filing the switch blades will be a bit more because they are longer.

 

If the vee rails are filed and polished using these jigs to match exactly the angle of the plug track chairs, they fit snugly together in the chairs and don't need soldering together to make a one-piece vee (same as in the Finetrax kits). The rails just need a little cyano superglue or whatever on them somewhere to prevent them sliding out of position.

 

p.s. the grey colour is PLA Plus toughened FDM filament, it is not a resin print.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 17, 2023 by martin_wynne
p.s. added

[AndyID]

On 24/12/2022 at 15:33, martin_wynne said:

 

That reminds me of a very strange happening on a club layout at the Warley show one year.

 

The layout ran perfectly all day Saturday, but on the Sunday morning refused to start with a persistent short-circuit. After a lot of head-scratching this was finally tracked down to a missing gap in a copper-clad sleeper. After cutting a gap the layout ran perfectly again.

 

No-one could explain how the layout had been running fine the previous day, or in the clubroom for weeks before, and as far as I know no explanation was ever found.

 

Martin.

 

Returning to this after a mere eight months I found myself wondering if any of the track was made with double-sided copper-clad laminate. It's not difficult to introduce mysterious shorts with it if you are not very careful. Mind you, this doesn't sound like a short although it could be in a very roundabout way if there were actually two or more problems.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have used double sided copper clad on a few occasions, the last time was for a N gauge curved turnout. I gapped both sides and tested for shorts, before use.

 

 

[NFWEM57]

11 hours ago, hayfield said:

BUT building track is not about saving money

If you require 80~100 turnouts for a layout then it is most certainly the cost..! 

Edited August 17, 2023 by NFWEM57

[martin_wynne]

25 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

If you require 80~100 turnouts for a layout then it is most certainly the cost..! 

 

If you spend some money on 3D printers, you can build plug track for a material cost of about £1 per turnout, plus the rail.

 

You need a resin printer for the chairs and an FDM printer for the timbers. Each can be had for around the cost of an 00 RTR locomotive, or less. Both can be used for lots of other model making jobs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

18 hours ago, brossard said:

 

LOL John, I think we've had this discussion before.  My turnouts are built on wooden timbers with Peco chairs, fixed with MEK.

 

All my crossings, vees and blades were made without jigs.  For code 124 rail I use a Dremel grinding wheel to remove the bulk of the material, followed by progressively finer files.  With practice, I am able to make these fairly quickly and accurately enough.

 

Everyone will have their own preferences but I guess my point is that learner turnout builders shouldn't think that these are absolutely necessary and that you can't build a turnout without them.

 

My layout doesn't require a lot of turnouts and they tend to be copies of Peco using their templates.  My crossover is a bit of an experiment and I made the turnouts from the Peco 00 medium radius template, blown up to 199% (to allow for the wrong gauge).  These work well with all the layout locomotives.

 

 

Handbuilt turnouts on the outside.  Peco in the middle, modified to dispense with that awful box and horrible blade spacing. 

 

Note the stretcher bars and there are two.  I never see handbuilt or otherwise turnouts with two stretchers.  Stretchers are from JLTRT and later MM1 models.  JLTRT is defunct and MM1 appears to be as well, so I will be exploring Ambis stretchers.

 

Having said all those nasty things about Peco, I did buy a half dozen Peco turnouts for a good price in an estate sale.

 

John

 

 

John

 

My reply was really made about 4 mm scale with 7 mm scale its a whole different ball game. I use a bench disc sander to rough out rough the rails, simply as the amount of material that has to be filed away is so much more.

 

Also your point about those starting out and costs are spot on

 

I have recently joined the Scale Seven group, the annual membership is quickly recouped from the cost of Exactoscale chairs  (500 + £24)  but they do both filing jigs and assembly jigs in 32mm gauge at very reasonable costs, they even supply Vees at minimal cost, but then its a society run by volunteers

 

I also bought a set of 32mm gauge metal assembly jigs ( 1-5, 1-6, 1-7 & 1-8 ) not used them simply as the wing rails do not match Templot, I must have a go. I have been considering buying at least 1 filing jig as they are so cheap

 

I have also got some Off The Rails chairs, these are very good, but sadly only available from Shapeways so are expensive, If only I could get some printed here at a decent price, but then we have Templot on stream and I just need to make friends with someone who will do the prints for me, sadly 3D printing is far beyond my abilities

[martin_wynne]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

sadly 3D printing is far beyond my abilities

 

Hi John,

 

No it isn't. 🙂

 

Your posts on RMweb amply demonstrate that you have all the know-how you could possibly need for Templot plug track. You don't need any computer skills or CAD abilities because Templot does all that for you. As soon as I have got a bit more released I shall be making some easy-to-follow videos and tutorials -- click this, press that --  and James Walters is planning to do some too, and will have a demo stand at Scaleforum.

 

p.s. the filing jigs can be set for 4mm or 7mm rail sizes (bullhead). It helps to grind the bulk off the rail first for the larger rail sections.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

23 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

No it isn't. 🙂

 

Your posts on RMweb amply demonstrate that you have all the know-how you could possibly need for Templot plug track. You don't need any computer skills or CAD abilities because Templot does all that for you. As soon as I have got a bit more released I shall be making some easy-to-follow videos and tutorials -- click this, press that --  and James Walters is planning to do some too, and will have a demo stand at Scaleforum.

 

p.s. the filing jigs can be set for 4mm or 7mm rail sizes (bullhead). It helps to grind the bulk off the rail first for the larger rail sections.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

My son in law constantly states I should be kept well away from modern Technology

 

As for 3D printing, I read all the posts, sadly understand few.

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Martin

 

My son in law constantly states I should be kept well away from modern Technology

 

As for 3D printing, I read all the posts, sadly understand few.

 

Were we twins separated at birth?!!

Albeit it's actually my son who casts aspersions over my competence.

 

Mike.

[martin_wynne]

13 minutes ago, hayfield said:

As for 3D printing, I read all the posts, sadly understand few.

 

Hi John,

 

For Templot plug track you don't need to understand 3D printing.

 

All you will need to do is read "click the button marked GO" and do it. 🙂

 

I'm determined to make it easy for everyone to follow. I haven't been able to get on with that yet, because until now the whole thing has been an unfinished experimental project. But I'm close now to having something usable. By the time we resume the Templot Zoom meetings next month, I'm hoping folks will be showing plug track stuff which they've made.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[KeithHC]

I am looking forward to your next release Martin. I like a lot of people struggled with 3D but then it clicked into place. Just using an FDM printer at the moment and can now produce a passable 3D unit no pun intended next up will be a tadpole. It took me a couple of years to get there but great fun on the way. Now back to building track the current developments are just what I want especially as SWMBO has promised me a resin printer as well.  So I am holding off on buying track for my first layout as I would love to just build my own. I always consider my self to be a ham fisted modeller but can see that track work will just be another assembly that I can’t screw up badly.

 

Keith

[hayfield]

Martin

 

I am looking forward to the group chat resuming, I think that there is a little more than just pressing go as the machines need setting up first. As soon as I can find someone who can print my designs at a reasonable price I am in, but its the setting up both machines (let alone buying them) that I would struggle with

 

I am raring to go especially after getting the test shots from you

 

Your filing jigs are brilliant, again a case of finding a printer !! It would be interesting to see how robust they are with 7mm rail.

 

Can they still be printed in the original form as they fit my bench vice perfectly ?

[brossard]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

John

 

My reply was really made about 4 mm scale with 7 mm scale its a whole different ball game. I use a bench disc sander to rough out rough the rails, simply as the amount of material that has to be filed away is so much more.

 

Also your point about those starting out and costs are spot on

 

I have recently joined the Scale Seven group, the annual membership is quickly recouped from the cost of Exactoscale chairs  (500 + £24)  but they do both filing jigs and assembly jigs in 32mm gauge at very reasonable costs, they even supply Vees at minimal cost, but then its a society run by volunteers

 

I also bought a set of 32mm gauge metal assembly jigs ( 1-5, 1-6, 1-7 & 1-8 ) not used them simply as the wing rails do not match Templot, I must have a go. I have been considering buying at least 1 filing jig as they are so cheap

 

I have also got some Off The Rails chairs, these are very good, but sadly only available from Shapeways so are expensive, If only I could get some printed here at a decent price, but then we have Templot on stream and I just need to make friends with someone who will do the prints for me, sadly 3D printing is far beyond my abilities

 

Must check into the Scale 7 society.  I am a member of G0G but they don't offer jigs and such.  Magazine is worth the price of admission though.  It saves me money because I ditched all the other mainstream mags (even MRJ) due to poor coverage of 0 gauge.

 

John

 

 

[martin_wynne]

20 hours ago, hayfield said:

Can they still be printed in the original form as they fit my bench vice perfectly ?

 

Hi John,

 

The original trial design was unnecessarily long and wasteful of material -- and would have been much longer at flatter angles.

 

The current design can be G-clamped to the corner of the bench, or held in a bench vice, as you prefer. This is a 1:12 vee filing jig:

 

 

 

 

 

This is the filing jig for the back of a size "B" switch blade. It looks a bit flimsy in the photo, but it is actually perfectly rigid to use. Without the big slot it would use much more material:

 

 

 

But I can do them a different way if there is a need? So far these designs are working fine for me.

 

You can choose how thick you want them in Templot. The top one is 20mm thick in total. The bottom one is 16mm thick in total. The thicker ones are a bit easier to use with a wide file, but use more material and take longer to print.

 

p.s. this is grey PLA Plus FDM filament, it is not a resin print.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 19, 2023 by martin_wynne
p.s. added

[Captain_Mumbles]

A bit late to the party here, and at the risk of this being seen elsewhere, I think it has a lot to do with Peco Bullhead coming to the market. As well as modellers discovering Templot. Which, thanks to Martin Wynne's amazing perseverance, discovered its quirks and began to find it very addictive. (to the point where I MUST fight to stop myself redesigning my layout just because it is fun)

 

I have been dismantling the Peco BH flex track, and using the rails, and in most cases carefully cutting off the chairs to re use on the points.  I have C&L chairs, but since they are hard to get for me, being in Australia, I decided I would use the C&L chairs were they are close to the foreground work as they are, absolutely gorgeous once you get it all together.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles
typos, typos, and ahhhh typos.

[hayfield]

Looking good but Templot is taking great leaps forward with plug in track. Simply either design your Template (turnout plan) or layout plan, then print your sleepers/timbers using a FDM printer or send off the plans to be laser cut, then print the chairs using a resin printer and you have no worries of buying components

 

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/page-22#post-8126

 

Turnouts are available now and crossings and slips will be on stream in the future

 

 Upper switch rail filing jigs, middle Vee jig and chairs, lower track base

 

In addition to printing the timbers and chairs you can print off Vee and switch rail filing jigs.

 

 Inner filing jig , removes the head only. The jig which files the rear is top left above

 

Yes you need printers or access to printing facilities/services. Its early days quite a few modellers have printers, clubs have them and no doubt enterprising printers will be offering their services

 

Resin printers now are as low as £80 and FDM printers from $130 (+ post and import tax) or £170 from a UK supplier. The cost of the prints are quite cheap just the outlay, but with a bag of chairs costing £30+ a bag or kits costing £70 a time, investments are soon recovered and no expensive gauges or filing jigs are required 

Edited October 2, 2023 by hayfield

[Captain_Mumbles]

That sure is impressive. I think my opinion of 3D printing is a little skewed. At a job I had a while back, we did a lot of prototyping and we had 3d printers going all day and this came with people also working all day fixing the printers. Not to mention things breaking in unforseen ways after it was always too late or inconvenient.  Although I do understand they are really good now. Especially those Prusa ones.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles
typo

[hayfield]

You are spot on there, not too long ago 3D prints were full of printing lines needing sanding

 

I won't say I was a total sceptic on this as I was very much into detailing plastic chaired track, also I wrongly assumed production should be as the Finetracks are designed, which I must add is spot on for the people its aimed at.

 

Templot has just changed the proposition totally

 

Firstly anyone can produce a turnout of crossing template (plan) with a few clicks of a computer mouse. With a bit more training these templates can be curved and made into formations. There is a totally inaccurate assumption that Templot is difficult to use. At Scaleforum even the most ardent anti Templot modellers were opening their eyes to the possibilities.

 

It then is a simple process to produce a file(s) to print either a length or plain track or a turnout base(s), set of chairs and or filing jigs for vees and switches

 

At the moment the modeller needs or needs access to both a FDM printer and a resin printer.  The main thing is Access to not ownership of. Many who I spoke to said they had a friend who had one or both, or their club had them

 

I am certain in time not only will machines be common place, but enterprising modellers/businesses will offer printing services, where you can send a boxfile of the turnout/formation for them to process. A word of warning the printer will need to understand how to work the plus track printing method.  But like all things some will be better than others

 

At the moment its just turnouts that can be printed, but in the short term if needs must as with Finetracks it may be a case of mixing new and old methods. Lets face it us modellers can be impatient, and poor old Martin is burning the candle at both ends

 

Plug track was the star at Scaleforum, and rightly so. But its not just for P4 modellers or just 4mm scale.

[Captain_Mumbles]

How do you find the paint interaction with these materials?

 

I agree with you that we are up for some exciting times ahead. Imagine just printing off a group group of beautifully curved points some day????

Edited October 4, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles

[hayfield]

 

This is a bit of a close up of the system as it is, sadly I concentrated of the jigs and forgot to photo the turnout with the chairs and rails. perhaps others will post a couple of better ones

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

How do you find the paint interaction with these materials?

 

I agree with you that we are up for some exciting times ahead. Imagine just printing off a group group of beautifully curved points some day????

 

 

The simple answer is I don't know as I have not tried painting the parts in my possession, no one to date has mentioned any difficulty in painting PLA or resin, given 3D printing is common place in modelling I assume there are no issues other than paint after building as everything is designed to be a tight fit.