Is track building making a come back

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

Imagine just printing off a group group of beautifully curved points some day????

 

Hi,

 

It's not some day, it's doable now for turnouts and crossovers. Any scale, any gauge, curved to any radius, any size of turnout. Templot is free, you just need the printers, a bottle of resin and a reel of filament. And some rails of course. 🙂

 

But -- REA BH only so far. Not yet any GWR, flat-bottom, diamonds, slips. But tandems soon if I get the half-bolted chairs done.

 

But the main thing missing is -- no instructions. Writing them will be a massive task. But there are moves afoot on the Bexhill West youtube channel to help with that. At present it's all doable but you have to read through many pages of stuff on the Templot web site to find out how.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi,

 

It's not some day, it's doable now for turnouts and crossovers. Any scale, any gauge, curved to any radius, any size of turnout. Templot is free, you just need the printers, a bottle of resin and a reel of filament. And some rails of course. 🙂

 

But -- REA BH only so far. Not yet any GWR, flat-bottom, diamonds, slips. But tandems soon if I get the half-bolted chairs done.

 

But the main thing missing is -- no instructions. Writing them will be a massive task. But there are moves afoot on the Bexhill West youtube channel to help with that. At present it's all doable but you have to read through many pages of stuff on the Templot web site to find out how.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Have you printed anything in 7mm scale yet?

[martin_wynne]

35 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Martin

 

Have you printed anything in 7mm scale yet?

 

Hi John,

 

I made some 7mm timbering bases a few years ago but I haven't made any resin chairs in 7mm yet. I'm just about to do that now that I've got some proper code 131 rail to measure. Previously I was using the Peco 0 gauge rail. I've been wary of starting the 7mm stuff because I know it will be a total distraction from getting on with the plug track programming. I've also got some Code 250 bullhead rail and I want to make some Gauge 3 track. I've ordered a bigger FDM printer for that.

 

It's all coming at me too fast at the moment. Especially today with my phone system in a mess.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

4 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

I made some 7mm timbering bases a few years ago but I haven't made any resin chairs in 7mm yet. I'm just about to do that now that I've got some proper code 131 rail to measure. Previously I was using the Peco 0 gauge rail. I've been wary of starting the 7mm stuff because I know it will be a total distraction from getting on with the plug track programming. I've also got some Code 250 bullhead rail and I want to make some Gauge 3 track. I've ordered a bigger FDM printer for that.

 

It's all coming at me too fast at the moment. Especially today with my phone system in a mess.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Thanks and I look forward to next Wednesday

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

How do you find the paint interaction with these materials?

 

 

I can't speak for resin printing as I don't currently do that.  So far as PLA and PETG are concerned, I give them a coat of spray primer (Halfords), and then paint them.  I've got one item outdoors which has been in situ for 4.5 years and seems to be OK.

 

Adrian

[Captain_Mumbles]

On 04/10/2023 at 22:32, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi,

 

It's not some day, it's doable now for turnouts and crossovers. Any scale, any gauge, curved to any radius, any size of turnout. Templot is free, you just need the printers, a bottle of resin and a reel of filament. And some rails of course. 🙂

 

But -- REA BH only so far. Not yet any GWR, flat-bottom, diamonds, slips. But tandems soon if I get the half-bolted chairs done.

 

But the main thing missing is -- no instructions. Writing them will be a massive task. But there are moves afoot on the Bexhill West youtube channel to help with that. At present it's all doable but you have to read through many pages of stuff on the Templot web site to find out how.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

It is about time to get a printer then!

 

On 05/10/2023 at 06:51, figworthy said:

 

I can't speak for resin printing as I don't currently do that.  So far as PLA and PETG are concerned, I give them a coat of spray primer (Halfords), and then paint them.  I've got one item outdoors which has been in situ for 4.5 years and seems to be OK.

 

Adrian

Good to know, cheers!

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

It is about time to get a printer then!

 

Two printers unless you are using laser cut timbers

 

3 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

 

Good to know, cheers!

 

Thinking about it, many build or use 3D printed models/parts and paint them, and of course Finetracks have been sold and used for ages

[Captain_Mumbles]

10 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Two printers unless you are using laser cut timbers

 

I'll go with the filament printer first. I think it will be easier to have someone print off plug chairs for me than have someone faff around with the sleepers/timbers. Path of least resistance when it comes to relying on others!

[KeithHC]

I agree with the thought of start with an FDM printer and then either find someone who has a resin printer or use a print service. Yes I want to get a resin printer and SWMBO has already promised me one. However I have held back as I want to ensure I can produce other designs good enough to use both machines. It has only been the last few months that 3D has clicked for me. But I know that with Templot you do not need the design skills as Martin has done it all for us. It is though the ability to now be able to produce your own track that will look more real than toy that to me a hamfisted modeller is the greatest of advancement.

 

Please keep it going Martin………..

 

Keith

[NFWEM57]

On 04/10/2023 at 12:32, martin_wynne said:

But -- REA BH only so far. Not yet any GWR, flat-bottom, diamonds, slips. But tandems soon if I get the half-bolted chairs done.

And therein lies a problem as having made my first scratch build crossover in bullhead, I wanted to do the same in FB.  No parts available..! No equivalents of timbers or chairs for FB with concrete save for some out of stock chairs from the EMGS.  The only FB turnouts with concrete sleepers I have seen are those made by British Finescale for N gauge.  Plain track is available from the EMGS .  The 3d printing approach is fine if you need a lot of turnouts but I only need 2 crossovers and 4 crossings in FB with concrete timbers so outlay for 3D printers well exceeds getting a return on investment.  Given that most modern themed layouts should be using FB with concrete I am surprised there is no availability of parts.  Started another thread on this as I do need to make FB turnouts with concrete 'timbers'..!  And as simply as  made the BH versions..!  

Edited November 24, 2023 by NFWEM57
Additional info

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

And therein lies a problem as having made my first scratch build crossover in bullhead, I wanted to do the same in FB.  No parts available..! No equivalents of timbers or chairs for FB with concrete save for some out of stock chairs from the EMGS.  The only FB turnouts with concrete sleepers I have seen are those made by British Finescale for N gauge.  Plain track is available from the EMGS .  The 3d printing approach is fine if you need a lot of turnouts but I only need 2 crossovers and 4 crossings in FB with concrete timbers so outlay for 3D printers well exceeds getting a return on investment.  Given that most modern themed layouts should be using FB with concrete I am surprised there is no availability of parts.  Started another thread on this as I do need to make FB turnouts with concrete 'timbers'..!  And as simply as  made the BH versions..!  

 

I can see your problem.

 

But my position with Templot is that I'm 75 years old. I grew up with bullhead. I know about bullhead. As it is it's going to take me a long time to complete a full range of bullhead options in the 3D plug track.

 

I know very little about flat-bottom, and I doubt I have enough lifetime left to find out and develop a plug track range for FB. Even a cursory glance at the subject shows a minefield of different prototypes and periods, compared with the comparative simplicity of BH where the present-day designs have been essentially unchanged for 100 years.

 

We need a youngster with a good knowledge of present-day track to come along with a replacement program for Templot to take the whole thing forward. How about you?

 

p.s. you can't necessarily expect a return on investment in 3D printers from track alone. Once you have the printers, a whole range of other model-making options opens up.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, NFWEM57 said:

And therein lies a problem as having made my first scratch build crossover in bullhead, I wanted to do the same in FB.  No parts available..! No equivalents of timbers or chairs for FB with concrete save for some out of stock chairs from the EMGS.  The only FB turnouts with concrete sleepers I have seen are those made by British Finescale for N gauge.  Plain track is available from the EMGS .  The 3d printing approach is fine if you need a lot of turnouts but I only need 2 crossovers and 4 crossings in FB with concrete timbers so outlay for 3D printers well exceeds getting a return on investment.  Given that most modern themed layouts should be using FB with concrete I am surprised there is no availability of parts.  Started another thread on this as I do need to make FB turnouts with concrete 'timbers'..!  And as simply as  made the BH versions..!  

 

NFWEM57

 

Track building has always been the Cinderella of the model railway scene, but it is clearly not as bad as you paint and if you spend some time researching this subject you may well be able to find what you require. To start off with you need to know what you require. For one customer who models the Blue era photographic evidence showed turnouts were still bullhead in the time period that he was modelling

 

But to start off with you need a good plan, Templot is a great free and easy to use recourse modelers can use and even caters for flatbottom users

 

Looking at products for turnouts and crossings, there are items out there and have been for years, Peco have for years been selling Individulay range for years, perhaps the best kept secret for years but they have been widely advertised for years

 

IL114  turnout timbers

IL 112  Pandrol clips

IL 113  Slide chairs

 

IL 121  Concrete sleepers with fixings (different from Pandrol and if asked nicely Peco may supply these separately 

 

Exactoscale as You have said do a range of products as do C&L with their ST fastenings and DowMac timbers for EM & P4 

 

I will elaborate further as I need to go out 

 

[NFWEM57]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

We need a youngster with a good knowledge of present-day track to come along with a replacement program for Templot to take the whole thing forward. How about you?

Hi Martin,

 

Thank you for the reply.  Well, I have many years of software experience, but mainly SQL and other more obscure applications - but the baseline skill set is there.  On track, little knowledge aside from what I am picking up now.  So, not a good starting point but who knows.  In addition, I am not far behind you and picking up my first winter fuel payment this year...!   Perhaps we need a Templot that does both so that your legacy carries on and FB is added; one program for both although I know it will require a 'youngster' to carry it forward.  But as you say, FB might be a minefield, but wasn't BH given all the variation..?!  I'll have a think about the software development side.

 

Regards,

 

Patrick

Edited November 24, 2023 by NFWEM57
typos and omissions

[Crosland]

3 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

But my position with Templot is that I'm 75 years old.

 

Apologies for being gloomy, but is there a succession plan for Templot?

 

I'm not a user yet, but may be after the next house move in a few years when I can have a permanent layout room.

[martin_wynne]

8 minutes ago, Crosland said:

 

Apologies for being gloomy, but is there a succession plan for Templot?

 

I'm not a user yet, but may be after the next house move in a few years when I can have a permanent layout room.

 

hi,

 

In 2018 I released Templot open-source as it then was -- https://github.com/openTemplot/openTemplot

 

When/if I get the 3D stuff to a stage where it can be regarded as stable and fully-functional, I shall do the same again.

 

What happens to it after that will be up to others, but the code will be out there if anyone wants to take it on.

 

Martin.

[kevinlms]

On 26/12/2022 at 19:57, hayfield said:

 

This is why I cut the isolation gaps before I fit any rails, takes a little longer at first but saves so much time later

But aren't you in a worse position, if solder accidentally flows into it?

 

Because you KNOW that you cut suitable gaps, so that can't be the cause!

Edited November 24, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[hayfield]

50 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

But aren't you in a worse position, if solder accidentally flows into it?

 

Because you KNOW that you cut suitable gaps, so that can't be the cause!

 

 

Kevin LMS

 

Firstly my soldering iron goes no where near the isolation gaps

Secondly I use solder sparingly, so no large blobs

Thirdly to bridge the gap (I use a junior hacksaw) and the gap has filler in it, you would need a massive blob to cover the join. If anything you would need some wire to jump the gap !!!

[Siberian Snooper]

There's an awful lot of situations where concrete bearers can't be used for switches and crossings, due to the nature of the track layout.  In the  80's? when York was being remodelled, the south end was done with concrete bearers, because the main route was straight. The north end was done on timbering, because both routes were on opposing curves.

 

Concrete is only used  where standard with the standard components, unless things have changed, in the intervening years.

 

 

[dj_crisp]

An interesting thread that I've stumbled on as I'm trying to research better ways of doing point stretchers (or are they tie bars?). Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.

 

My trackwork is a mixture of bullhead and flatbottom.... and hasn't had much use this year. Anyhow I returned to the layout and have found 4 or so tiebars have failed (3 FB, 1 BH) since i last used it so need to sort these. They all have differing methods of construction...

 

simple soldering to copperclad to using Ambis etches with C&L TOUs. A few photos of the failures...

 

Ambis etches on a non standard drive due to baseboard frames - snapped on the copperclad stretcher.

 

 

Standard soldered joint fail.

 

 

Ambis stretchers with a C&L TOU

 

 

So does anyone know of a better way of doing this?

 

I think I need a solution that needs a bit of flex/rotation especially so with the heavier FB ones.... and I'd also like it to look ok but I'm beginning to think something more robust would be better?

 

Also in this world of 3d printing has anyone drawn up things like point locks? 

 

Thanks

Will

 

[hayfield]

8 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

And therein lies a problem as having made my first scratch build crossover in bullhead, I wanted to do the same in FB.  No parts available..! No equivalents of timbers or chairs for FB with concrete save for some out of stock chairs from the EMGS.  The only FB turnouts with concrete sleepers I have seen are those made by British Finescale for N gauge.  Plain track is available from the EMGS .  The 3d printing approach is fine if you need a lot of turnouts but I only need 2 crossovers and 4 crossings in FB with concrete timbers so outlay for 3D printers well exceeds getting a return on investment.  Given that most modern themed layouts should be using FB with concrete I am surprised there is no availability of parts.  Started another thread on this as I do need to make FB turnouts with concrete 'timbers'..!  And as simply as  made the BH versions..!  

 

I am back from Christmas shopping so can add to my previous post

 

Modern trackwork is a real minefield Manchester Model Railway Society have a great article by Colin Craig which has a lot of detail in the three sections

https://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

 

As modelers what we have is very limited but in reality in 4mm scale could we see the difference between some of the clips and fastenings ? And if we did use the correct fastenings who would notice ?

 

 

Easily obtainable top Peco slide chairs and Pandrol clips, the latter apparently is oversize, below C&L ST fastenings, so there are some chairs available, but a very limited range and none of the striking (looking) check rail chairs. Peco slide chairs should be a better fit for flat bottom rail than C&L or Exactoscale

 

Colin Craig did sell components for etched flatbottom fittings, certain he has stopped this range, Masokits sell a fret of 300 BR type 3 fixings, I guess you will also need copperclad timbers

 

 

Peco do concrete sleepers for 00 gauge

 

 

AS you can see they also supply fastenings different to both their Pandrol clips and C&L's ST fastenings. A polite letter to Peco may result in them selling these clips on their own and in bulk.

 

C&L sell Dow Mac sleepers but they are for EM or P4 gauge

 

As for timbers, Peco, C&L and Exactoscale all sell timbers for turnouts and crossings

 

 

These are my favorites they are the Exactoscale Point and crossing timbers 4XXPCTO, excellent value the longest timbers are 86mm long so you can cut surplus items into 2 . Makes about 2,5 to 3 turnouts per pack

 

 

For those modelling in P4 or EM Exactoscale sell a range of turnout and crossing bases (A5, A6, B7,B8,C10 and a diamond, single slip and double slip all to 1-8 crossing angles. All these items are designed for P4, the turnouts are fine for EM gauge, but the crossings and slips need slight adjustment, but a great time saver

 

The new kid on the block is the Plug track system being developed by Martin Wynn in Templot, this system is very versatile and whilst its primarily designed for a plug track system  which is at the moment restricted to bullhead rail, it can be used with other systems

 

 

This is an A-6 in EM scale, but the bases can be printed without the plug holes (solid) I have fitted both C&L and Exactoscale chairs using Butanone and it works fine

 

Firstly bases can be printed easily, but to any gauge (and scale), to any crossing angles, straight or to and curve and in formations

 

For instance you could print a crossover on a curve to your required gauge, and print out the plan on paper so you can preform the rails, then use certainly any of the C&L or Exactoscale components and I guess Peco parts. These bases are 3D printed using PLA filament so you will need a FDM printer, or have access to one. 3D printing is a massive growth area, many clubs have them or certainly have members with them. In fact at Scaleforum I was surprised how many had access to one 

 

In conclusion, certainly there are components available for building flatbottom track, and the choice is getting bigger

 

 

 

[Captain_Mumbles]

14 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 the bases can be printed without the plug holes (solid)

 

 

 

Was that a case of clicking on the 'socket normals' and changing the plug width?

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

Was that a case of clicking on the 'socket normals' and changing the plug width?

 

No you access the settings through the 3D box 

 

Click DXF/STL file export

In new box click layers on the top selection bar

in the chair sockets box change colour to no colour

[hayfield]

Two must view videos from James Walters (for those who have watched the first video either skip it or watch it again

 

Part 1 an introduction to 3D printed trackwork

 

 

Now the second part Turnouts 

 

 

 

Hope you enjoyed these

[SHMD]

This is really really REALLY tempting !

Such an inspirational thread.

 

Those "Bexhill" vids are giving me the confidence to think about having a go as they go through from start to finish and what's needed.

Lots of useful "real world" advice for us novices.

 

 

Kev.

[hayfield]

54 minutes ago, SHMD said:

This is really really REALLY tempting !

Such an inspirational thread.

 

Those "Bexhill" vids are giving me the confidence to think about having a go as they go through from start to finish and what's needed.

Lots of useful "real world" advice for us novices.

 

 

Kev.

 

Kev

 

Gone are the days where you need lots of gauges, expensive jigs and a lot of tutoring 

 

The main plus is its a very simple build process. The main drawback is access to 3D printers, though far more have access if not ownership of them

 

There is a learning curve, but if a computer illiterate 70 year old can manage it anyone can. Certainly with the FDM printer its easy to set up and use, the process to make build files is not very difficult. Hoping the resin printer is much the same

 

James goes through a simple process which after time becomes second nature. I have found making a simple card crib sheet is all you need. I plan to do the same with the resin printer

 

You also can get some wonderful information, help and encouragement from Templot Club, and hopefully on RMWeb as the users grow