Formula 1 2023

[Gareth Collier]

And F1 becomes even more of a farce. How can the stewards apply time penalties to some but not all for the same offence and it needed a protest from Aston Martin before they noticed that they'd missed a stack of them?

If one driver is penalised for an infringement then all should, not just a random selection from the stewards. Whatever the rights or wrongs of track limits the stewards have to be consistent and as they have all the data to hand there is no excuse.

5 hours to admit they aren't fit for purpose and the whole result is recalculated. There is no sign of the shoddy stewardship improving, F1 is a boring shambles.

[Sidecar Racer]

1 hour ago, Gareth Collier said:

 There is no sign of the shoddy stewardship improving, F1 is a boring shambles.

 

 I don't remember situations like this when Charlie Whiting was running things .  RIP .

[Oldddudders]

Something is rotten in the State of Steiermark. 1200+ track limit infringements in less than 90 minutes are well beyond the capabilities of any human interface to assess currently. 

 

This is how the FIA see it 

 

"In order to address the issue for future events we will renew our recommendation to the circuit to add a gravel trap at the exit of Turns 9 and 10," 

 

Note the verb 'renew'. Someone had seen the need for this, but Red Bull weren't listening. Now their home GP has become a shambles. My heart bleeds.

 

[37114]

1 minute ago, Oldddudders said:

Something is rotten in the State of Steiermark. 1200+ track limit infringements in less than 90 minutes are well beyond the capabilities of any human interface to assess currently. 

 

This is how the FIA see it 

 

"In order to address the issue for future events we will renew our recommendation to the circuit to add a gravel trap at the exit of Turns 9 and 10," 

 

Note the verb 'renew'. Someone had seen the need for this, but Red Bull weren't listening. Now their home GP has become a shambles. My heart bleeds.

 

There has to be a solution to this. The tarmac is there because of Moto GP who also use the track and don't like gravel traps on the outside of the curbs (presumably because of the severity of accident in case a rider gets it wrong) but there surely could be some removable solution for F1 that could be used beyond the curve to create a false surface that slows cars that stray on to it. Having to wait 5 hours to hear the result of a race is poor.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

My solution: don’t go back there. It’s a silly little track, full of vociferous orange people who have no interest in F1, only in one driver.

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, Obi-Jiff Kenobi said:

My solution: don’t go back there. It’s a silly little track, full of vociferous orange people who have no interest in F1, only in one driver.

So you want to cancel the Dutch GP in August too? 😆

 

26 minutes ago, 37114 said:

There has to be a solution to this. The tarmac is there because of Moto GP who also use the track and don't like gravel traps

Why not a simple electronic sensor / wire that sits the width of a car outside and if you pass over it reduces power by 25% for 10 secs. It’s little different then to a driver going on the grass and losing speed on other circuits. 
It’s certainly not beyond the wit of these clever people to include a box in the car that triggers it and every time it’s activated it records who with big penalties for tampering with it. 

[EddieB]

In theory there is no way the top drivers are unable to keep within track limits.  In practice, we know they will push the margins to achieve the fastest line - and if they frequently brush the barriers at Montreal or Singapore, a painted white line isn’t going to stop them.  

 

There is enough technology to pick up any transgressions in real-time, and sanctions should be automatic (but with over-rides).  Sensors are used to ensure correct positioning on the grid and to monitor jump starts, and something similar for exceeding track limits.  They should flag up immediately, with only a handful needing to be rescinded (such as forced off by another driver, or avoiding a collision) - with all the violations yesterday, I don’t think there was a single one that could be excused on that basis. 

 

The problem yesterday was with the stewards, not the track, not the technology.

 

I thought there were other corners where track limits were exceeded with impunity (turn 4?) and other tracks (Bahrain?) where some corners are monitored, others not.  Consistency is needed. 

 

Going forward, the track does need changes - built-up kerbs should act as a physical deterrent (and should be suitable for two-wheeler events too).

 

 

[Andrew P]

I think a temporary Wall of tyres just under a cars width from the white Track limit, to emulate something like the "Wall of Campions" area in Canada, from the start of 9 to the end of 10. ON the line and you hit it, it will effect your speed, possibly damage your car and that is a self punishment.

 

[Andrew P]

1 minute ago, EddieB said:

In theory there is no way the top drivers are unable to keep within track limits.  In practice, we know they will push the margins to achieve the fastest line - and if they frequently brush the barriers at Montreal or Singapore, a painted white line isn’t going to stop them.  

 

There is enough technology to pick up any transgressions in real-time, and sanctions should be automatic (but with over-rides).  Sensors are used to ensure correct positioning on the grid and to monitor jump starts, and something similar for exceeding track limits.  They should flag up immediately, with only a handful needing to be rescinded (such as forced off by another driver, or avoiding a collision) - with all the violations yesterday, I don’t think there was a single one that could be excused on that basis. 

 

The problem yesterday was with the stewards, not the track, not the technology.

 

I thought there were other corners where track limits were exceeded with impunity (turn 4?) and other tracks (Bahrain?) where some corners are monitored, others not.  Consistency is needed. 

 

Going forward, the track does need changes - built-up kerbs should act as a physical deterrent (and should be suitable for two-wheeler events too).

 

 

Totally agree. If they can hide a camera in the curb, as shown on C4 yesterday, then why not Sensors?

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, Obi-Jiff Kenobi said:

My solution: don’t go back there. It’s a silly little track

 

Agree with this, a once spectacular track castrated by Tilke in 1995. When racing was being considered in 2005 parts of the old track were supposed to be reinstated, but this never happened. It's really not right IMHO that we have a 1 minute lap in this day and age. RB have the money in buckets to redevelop their track, but as it suits their cars then there is little chance apart from some FIA tinkering with gravel traps etc.

[SteveM666]

1 hour ago, Andrew P said:

I think a temporary Wall of tyres just under a cars width from the white Track limit, to emulate something like the "Wall of Campions" area in Canada, from the start of 9 to the end of 10. ON the line and you hit it, it will effect your speed, possibly damage your car and that is a self punishment.

 

A TechPro barrier maybe but a ‘wall of tyres’ risks a repeat of the Henry Surtees accident from a few years ago - even with the halo (they provide a lot of protection but not perfect).

A corner sensor with an immediate power cut of 20%+ is much more elegant. However there is a safety concern as a car suddenly slowing as a result could be collected by the cars behind. And higher kerbs can launch cars into the air.

No easy solutions unfortunately.

[PaulRhB]

55 minutes ago, SteveM666 said:

However there is a safety concern as a car suddenly slowing as a result could be collected by the cars behind. And higher kerbs can launch cars into the air.

No easy solutions unfortunately.

But if they know going off will slow them down then it’s up to the driver to re-enter safely and drivers behind would also then expect them to be slower much like coming off grass. The system could be turned off for the first lap where people getting forced wide is more likely. The alternative to a power cut off is that it registers it and applies it as a penalty during the pit stop. The release man governed by a traffic light he can see but shielded from the driver. They know the average pit stop times so adding the penalty onto that on a timer fitted to their air line gantry should be relatively easy and cheap. It could have a camera in it that records while the light is red so it can easily be reviewed to check the car is stationary for the last few frames. 
Knowing you’ll be forced to pit again for infringement after your last planned stop would be even worse. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by PaulRhB

[njee20]

But you're talking about "going off" by an inch or so, they're not leaving the track in any real sense, ergo a following car would suddenly be met with a slow car on the racing line, entering a DRS zone. That would be mental.

 

Surely for the money involved they could have gravel for F1 and an alternative for Moto GP?

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Agree with this, a once spectacular track castrated by Tilke in 1995. When racing was being considered in 2005 parts of the old track were supposed to be reinstated, but this never happened. It's really not right IMHO that we have a 1 minute lap in this day and age. RB have the money in buckets to redevelop their track, but as it suits their cars then there is little chance apart from some FIA tinkering with gravel traps etc.

I've always quite liked it, although admittedly its setting helps. It's not the most interesting track in the world but it's certainly not the worst. Probably helps that I never saw the original Osterreichring, so I'm ignorant of what's lost. But I agree it's rather too small for F1.

[4630]

2 hours ago, EddieB said:

 

There is enough technology to pick up any transgressions in real-time, and sanctions should be automatic (but with over-rides).  Sensors are used to ensure correct positioning on the grid and to monitor jump starts, and something similar for exceeding track limits.  They should flag up immediately, with only a handful needing to be rescinded (such as forced off by another driver, or avoiding a collision) - with all the violations yesterday, I don’t think there was a single one that could be excused on that basis. 

 

 

I'd like any time penalty in these circumstances to be subject to a separate isolated pit stop, with no other work being permitted on the car, to be undertaken within a set number of laps following any track limit transgression, as opposed to the current arrangements.

 

That might concentrate the teams and drivers minds a bit.

 

An FIA mandated and controlled area along the pit lane to serve the time penalty, separate from the team's own pit area wouldn't be a bad idea either, to ensure compliance.  

[PaulRhB]

44 minutes ago, njee20 said:

But you're talking about "going off" by an inch or so, they're not leaving the track in any real sense, ergo a following car would suddenly be met with a slow car on the racing line, entering a DRS zone. That would be mental.

 

Surely for the money involved they could have gravel for F1 and an alternative for Moto GP?

But when someone goes wide onto grass you get that effect and I’m not talking about braking just cutting power slightly for a short period. When a driver has a loss of drive then it’s up to them to get off the racing line. It might require some modification on certain circuits with close combinations but you could make the power loss less but for longer. Losing 5% for 20 seconds or so and the red light on the back flickers to warn others for a few seconds before it cuts in? Lots of options and there will be gps and engine data to check if anyone alleges cheating.  Make those penalties big to dissuade manipulation? 
The amount of infringements suggest human reviewing is impossible so they need to look at a real time or similar system. If safety factors can’t be addressed just make it you lose say 0.2 of a point for each infringement? Keep the race results but lose the overall points. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by PaulRhB

[njee20]

Not accelerating is virtually identical to braking when you’re the following car. I can assure you from bike racing that someone suddenly stopping pedalling is akin to them slamming on the brakes!

 

The “coming back from on the grass” is different. If you’re on the grass you are very wide, and it’s plain to see you’re a hazard. Again, you’re talking about an inch difference, with the drivers evidently being largely unaware of exactly where that line is. Having them swerve to the opposite side of the road so they can deal with their spontaneous loss of power still sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[PaulRhB]

Well if it means painting the run offs green so they have to be visibly wide then so be it. 
 

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Not accelerating is virtually identical to braking when you’re the following car. I can assure you from bike racing that someone suddenly stopping pedalling is akin to them slamming on the brakes

Yes lifting off fully is but a small drop in power similar to the traction lost on grass is different and drivers would just have to treat the car in front getting into the painted area as they are going to lose power. You can’t deal with the Vettel or Max I’m going to block you anyway approach with it but then there are the options to do it at a pit stop or even on a straight with the rear light flashing a known sequence first. Drivers are used to looking for a missed gear or other hindrance as an opportunity to swing out and round so some sort of warning should be fairly easy and as it’s the gearbox in front flashing, not a panel off to the side like yellow flags, it should be virtually impossible to miss. 
Or as I said above let them race and get alerts in the cockpit and just dock points afterwards and round up at the end of the season. I’m not that keen on extra pit stops as it increases risks in the pit lane and exit so losing points that are deducted from your position should be easy before the podium ceremony. So if you finish second but accrue three points worth of penalties you get third on the podium while the third place man gets a recorded second for all time records but no extra points. 

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 I don't remember situations like this when Charlie Whiting was running things .  RIP .

 

That is because he was too lenient, which is not a good thing.

Jump starts were never flagged up for investigation for several laps, which was a complete joke. Alonso's jump start was flagged on lap 1 earlier this season, which was a huge improvement.

Drivers were regularly allowed to run wide because they were not deemed to be "gaining an advantage". Why do they go wide? Because accelerating harder & earlier forces them wide. How exactly is this not "gaining an advantage"?

Stopping them going wide is a good thing, because racing should be done on the track. The RD & stewards need to be consistent enough with this to deter the drivers from infringing the limits. We are currently witnessing the process of them getting there.

In speedway, riders are not allowed both wheels over the white line marking the inside of the track. They know full well they will be disqualified for doing so (or excluded as it used to be known in that sport), which is why it happens so rarely.

[PaulRhB]

Of course the other option is if everyone can do it then there’s no advantage. Chicanes have the techpro barriers to stop huge cuts etc and rough curbs that unbalance the car or damage the floor. Some sections could be replaceable for other series races as you wouldn’t need it on every one, just where hitting it was too much of a cut. Safer than the launch ramp sausage kerbs too. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Pete the Elaner]

9 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Of course the other option is if everyone can do it then there’s no advantage. Chicanes have the techpro barriers to stop huge cuts etc and rough curbs that unbalance the car or damage the floor. Some sections could be replaceable for other series races as you wouldn’t need it on every one, just where hitting it was too much of a cut. Safer than the launch ramp sausage kerbs too. 

 

That has been the "line" of thought for years, so why bother with track limits at all? When does "off" become "too far off"? 1cm over, 1m over, 10m over, each "lap" is a donut on the infield?

I guess most would consider "too far off" as being somewhere between 1m & 10m but without a definition, there is nothing to apply. But there is a definition: the white line at the edge of the track.

[37114]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

I've always quite liked it, although admittedly its setting helps. It's not the most interesting track in the world but it's certainly not the worst. Probably helps that I never saw the original Osterreichring, so I'm ignorant of what's lost. But I agree it's rather too small for F1.

 The track layout was similar but elongated at either side, scroll down to the bottom on the link below. I think they trimmed it due to lack of run off space and the high speeds cars were achieving, I don't think there is space to go back to the old layout due to the lack of run off, certainly at the Eastern end where grandstands have been built. If you look at Google maps you can see the Western end is still there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Ring

[298]

7 hours ago, SteveM666 said:

A corner sensor with an immediate power cut of 20%+ is much more elegant. However there is a safety concern as a car suddenly slowing as a result could be collected by the cars behind.

 

Like Verstappen does? Did his retribution go unpunished? If drivers are allowed to do that then they might as well fit bull bars and ram any cars for whom they feel need to be reprimanded. A bit like Death Race 2000, but in more of a dystopian future where a yukky energy drink runs the earth.

 

I quite like the idea of a drop in power or loss of DRS, and it'd be interesting to see how the boffins find a way around it...

[SteveM666]

No doubt the FIA will make a statement and set up a working group of some sort to look at the issue.

 

Changing tack slightly, this will be the first year since 1983 that I will not be attending an F1 event. A combination of Silverstone adopting ‘active pricing’ for tickets and removing grandstand access to general admission tickets on Friday (unless you pay extra) combined with the removal of pre-season testing to the Middle East have all finally killed off my passion for F1 photography.

But here’s one of mine from Portimao in 2021.

[Steadfast]

9 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Of course the other option is if everyone can do it then there’s no advantage.

Here's a thought I've just had, if the "desire line" of a flat out car is 6ft or whatever wider, make the track that much wider between 9 and 10. No gravel, and still two wheel mosquito MotoGP friendly and cars shouldn't be racking up 1200 disallowed laps a race. Is this  issue with so many cars pushing wider partly a symptom of the cars getting bigger and bigger? Since the whole area is tarmac already, all you're actually doing is moving the painted line out a few feet.

 

Alternatively, fit bollards made of a material that deflects or similar but doesn't damage the cars. Hit one, and you're penalised. They use them in truck racing to prevent corner cutting etc. Alternatively, if they did cause punctures, people would be more inclined to not run wide!

 

 

 

Jo