Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Pmorgancym]

What is it a month with no official statement from Hornby?

[spamcan61]

22 hours ago, rmnik said:

What type of circuit breaker would you recommend and where would you source them?

 

I'll probably stick a 'polyfuse' on the output side

 

https://uk.farnell.com/raychem-te-connectivity/agrf400/polyswitch-automotive-4a/dp/1345892

[HExpressD]

14 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

What is it a month with no official statement from Hornby?

About two weeks by my reckoning, and how long do you think it takes to investigate potential electrical issues out of interest? 

[Pmorgancym]

12 hours ago, HExpressD said:

About two weeks by my reckoning, and how long do you think it takes to investigate potential electrical issues out of interest? 

No I don't expect that, but there's been no official statement otlr update about the DC issue.

[miles73128]

Class 50 now available! 

[NIK]

7 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

No I don't expect that, but there's been no official statement otlr update about the DC issue.

Hi,

 

It might be difficult to track down the fault and they might not want to comment until they have a technical solution and know what the cost and other implications are of a modified design.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

 

[D3489gibson]

Cracked it with the Bachmann 08! Managed to make it all fit, just!!! 

 

08839 was the test subject. Speaker has been placed alongside the decoder socket, and the chip, cables to the top, at the very front of the bodyshell. 

 

https://youtu.be/wLJRwaSPKFc

 

I've uploaded a video to YT to showcase the loco running on Bluetooth. 

 

Nathan....

[Pmorgancym]

12 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

It might be difficult to track down the fault and they might not want to comment until they have a technical solution and know what the cost and other implications are of a modified design.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

 

Public admission there's an issue is more what I'm thinking. 

[RAF96]

14 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

It might be difficult to track down the fault and they might not want to comment until they have a technical solution and know what the cost and other implications are of a modified design.

Regards

Nik

 

 

Can someone please explain exactly what this supposed fault is that is going to require a technical solution and costly design change.

As I see it the decoder does not like crap DC supplies which is probably why other decoder manufacturers also warn folk off from using them with their decoders to the extent of disabling it. What’s the difference here. You can still invoke DC mode by way of CV12 and use sensible DC voltage levels to run your loco in. You can’t access functions or sound in that mode anyway.

[NIK]

Hi RAF96,

 

I understood that some HM7000 decoders had been returned to Hornby because they stopped working.

Is that your understanding of the situation?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[spamcan61]

I'm losing track,which of the following scenarios  is the subject under discussion now please?

 

1) Controlling HM7000 chips via DC control i.e. turn the knob and the loco goes faster? In other words a DCC feature that's been available for years but has always been a bit of a crapshoot, hence is often disabled by OEMs by default 

 

2) Hornby's specific HM7000 control method where the dc controller is permanently set to full throttle and the loco is controlled via BLE + iPad or whatever?

[Pmorgancym]

13 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I'm losing track,which of the following scenarios  is the subject under discussion now please?

 

1) Controlling HM7000 chips via DC control i.e. turn the knob and the loco goes faster? In other words a DCC feature that's been available for years but has always been a bit of a crapshoot, hence is often disabled by OEMs by default 

 

2) Hornby's specific HM7000 control method where the dc controller is permanently set to full throttle and the loco is controlled via BLE + iPad or whatever?

The 2nd, but there's been some sort of smoke and mirrors going on claiming that 'tri mode' on the box refers to the first.

[Pmorgancym]

14 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Can someone please explain exactly what this supposed fault is that is going to require a technical solution and costly design change.

As I see it the decoder does not like crap DC supplies which is probably why other decoder manufacturers also warn folk off from using them with their decoders to the extent of disabling it. What’s the difference here. You can still invoke DC mode by way of CV12 and use sensible DC voltage levels to run your loco in. You can’t access functions or sound in that mode anyway.

The fact is it was marketed by many (included yourself over on the Hormby forums this year) as 'no need for an expensive DCC controller just turn  the power up.on your existing DC controller'.  Now there's been a considerable reverse ferreting and claims that the chip were never intended to have this functionality.

 

Do we actually know if the 'failure rate' is actually above that of a standard chip working on DCC?   

We seem to have 2 YouTube claiming their Chips have "blown" (I like tonsee how that was diagnosed beyond simply they don't work), and some people say the app now fails to find their chips (which could mean they're blown but could be something else entirely).

 

I doubt Hornby will ever 'solve' the issues or even address it publicly (the current approach seems to be reverse engineering the website and pretending they never said that you could use DC to power the chips).

 

And further to this is the system under further development?  Are there plans to update the app?  Or is it just new sounds?

Edited April 22, 2023 by Pmorgancym

[Legend]

I think you’ll find that that the DC “Tri mode” ( for avoidance of doubt, whack the analogue controller up to max and use App to control blue tooth) will be quietly dropped . 
 

This is a shame as I certainly thought this was an option to run DCC Sound on an otherwise analogue layout . Avoids the cost of going fully DCC . I don’t think Hornby got at all how popular an option this would be , instead concentrating on the  functionality over existing DCC systems. 
 

It might be that we eventually find out through third parties, YouTube or the Controller manufacturers , what controllers work with DCC7000 instead of dismissing the entirety of analogue controllers as “crap DC supplies” but frankly I’m extremely reluctant to give Hornby sales if they don’t do the work to investigate . Might  investigate Blunami instead as I’d only want it for one or two locos . 

[Pmorgancym]

And I suspect what those defending the big red box don't get, is its not people wanting tonhave another whack at Hornby, its that they are frustrated at seeing a product that promised to be ground breaking falls short.

 It might be worth having some mini polling here.  I bought a 21pin sound decoder to dabble with, it fitted it to a Bachmann 66 and I've used it (not anymore) on a bog standard gauge master combi with no issues.  I always had the power turned on and up before putting the loco on the tracks as in my mind any spiking or werid fluctuations are likely to occur when you adjust the controller but ho hum.

(What happened to those wave form screen shots could we see one for a Hornby approved supply v say the combi)

[newbryford]

Is there any further news on the release of the app for Android?

 

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

Is there any further news on the release of the app for Android?

 

Good point as I’m going to be doing a review for BRM soon and it would be good to have both platforms available to test

[RedgateModels]

14 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I'm losing track,which of the following scenarios  is the subject under discussion now please?

 

1) Controlling HM7000 decoders via DC control i.e. turn the knob and the loco goes faster? In other words a DCC feature that's been available for years

I’ve always understood this to be the original meaning of tri-mode in the same way that traditional DCC decoders are dual mode unless dc running is disabled.

 

14 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

2) Hornby's specific HM7000 control method where the dc controller is permanently set to full throttle and the loco is controlled via BLE + iPad or whatever?

the topic under discussion, that I think was mentioned as an afterthought by Hornby marketing folks that got jumped on by people with traditional DC systems but wanted to dabble with DCC sound.

 

Who knows where we will end up with this, but one thing’s for certain it’s not Hornby’s main drive with the HM7000. They certainly won’t be providing a list of competitors controllers that can be used with their new shiny system. It’s just not the way they operate.

Edited April 22, 2023 by RedgateModels

[Pmorgancym]

6 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

I’ve always understood this to be the original meaning of tri-mode

 

the topic under discussion, that I think was mentioned as an afterthought by Hornby marketing folks that got jumped on by people with traditional DC systems but wanted to dabble with DCC sound.

 

Who knows where we will end up with this, but one thing’s for certain it’s not Hornby’s main drive with the HM7000. They certainly won’t be providing a list of competitors controllers that can be used with their new shiny system. It’s just not the way they operate.

Thats the spin, but the same people saying that were enthusiastically extolling the virtues of that feature around launch time.  Its only since launch where the suggestion of an issue has occurred that this interpretation has come to the fore. (previously is was cheapmcontrollers might not have the power to power up the decoders or support sound)

 

The meaning of tri mode on the box is pretty clear, that option is what is meant.  If its such a minor '...you might get away' why put it on the box.  If it's option 1 apparently '...well you can do that if you want but no other decoder chip supports it and in fact they disable it' why put it on the box??

Edited April 22, 2023 by Pmorgancym

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

The fact is it was marketed by many (included yourself over on the Hormby forums this year) as 'no need for an expensive DCC controller just turn  the power up.on your existing DC controller'.  Now there's been a considerable reverse ferreting and claims that the chip were never intended to have this functionality.

 

Do we actually know if the 'failure rate' is actually above that of a standard chip working on DCC?   

We seem to have 2 YouTube claiming their Chips have "blown" (I like tonsee how that was diagnosed beyond simply they don't work), and some people say the app now fails to find their chips (which could mean they're blown but could be something else entirely).

 

I doubt Hornby will ever 'solve' the issues or even address it publicly (the current approach seems to be reverse engineering the website and pretending they never said that you could use DC to power the chips).

 

And further to this is the system under further development?  Are there plans to update the app?  Or is it just new sounds?

 

My first TXS chip definitely blew. It connected via Blue tooth without problem. Loading up the sounds etc took an evening. At the end it worked but would only go in one direction. This under a Bachmann DC controller.

 

I tried using an elink as the power supply. Same thing.

Only now it seemed to beep. Then it lost Blue Tooth, (impossible to connect). And carried on beeping....

One part of the circuit would flash as it beeped.

 

Realizing the thing was dead, I sent it back.

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

My first TXS chip definitely blew. It connected via Blue tooth without problem. Loading up the sounds etc took an evening. At the end it worked but would only go in one direction. This under a Bachmann DC controller.

 

I tried using an elink as the power supply. Same thing.

Only now it seemed to beep. Then it lost Blue Tooth, (impossible to connect). And carried on beeping....

One part of the circuit would flash as it beeped.

 

Realizing the thing was dead, I sent it back.

Could it have been faulty out of the box?  Sounds like it never worked from the start 

[RedgateModels]

23 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

The meaning of tri mode on the box is pretty clear, that option is what is meant.  If its such a minor '...you might get away' why put it on the box.  If it's option 1 apparently '...well you can do that if you want but no other decoder chip supports it and in fact they disable it' why put it on the box??

that’s your spin. I appreciate that you are disappointed that your flavour of modelling is not necessarily catered for by the stance that is now being taken by Hornby, but it does not change MY opinion of what the product was originally designed for. Shout as loud as you like from the rooftops it won’t change things.

[RedgateModels]

3 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Could it have been faulty out of the box?  Sounds like it never worked from the start 

This I agree on 🙂

[Pmorgancym]

2 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

that’s your spin. I appreciate that you are disappointed that your flavour of modelling is not necessarily catered for by the stance that is now being taken by Hornby, but it does not change MY opinion of what the product was originally designed for. Shout as loud as you like from the rooftops it won’t change things.

'Stance now being taken' which was after the product was purchased on the basis of the stance that was in play at time of purchase!

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

The 2nd, but there's been some sort of smoke and mirrors going on claiming that 'tri mode' on the box refers to the first.

 

Sorry, but I think you are 100% entirely wrong, although from the cack-handed launch videos and subsequent output, it's understandable that you may have misinterpreted the meaning of Tri-mode.

I will totally agree that the messaging from Hornby has at best, been wooly and often ambiguous.

However, there is no revisionism to the original offer.

 

1. Bluetooth operation (BLE) -  

i.e. DCC operation using the HM DCC app and Bluetooth communication with the decoders (rather than via the track).

Electrical power to enable the decoders to function and provide a motive source, via the track, using either a DCC or suitable DC supply.

There are criteria for using a DC power supply in this mode of operation.

Fixed voltage, smooth power supplies are preferable.

It is true that they've completely overplayed the use of suitable DC controllers as a power supply.

 

2. DCC operation (regular DCC) - 

Self explanatory.

 

3. Analogue (DC) operation -

Normal (variable voltage) DC operation, using a DC controller as with any other non-DCC loco, or enabled DCC fitted loco.

Hornby have made a mess of the marketing and messaging here, because from day one, their instruction manual advised against DC operation unless for "running in" purposes.

 

 

I will add, I am not defending Hornby in any way here.

In fact I dislike certain aspects of that company and do not hold their most prominent employee, in anywhere near the esteem that many seem to.

Most of their HM7000 videos have examples of muddled terminology, muddled explanations and in some cases, an apparent misunderstanding of their own product.

This was evidenced by certain individuals getting BLE (using a DC power source) mixed ups with analogue.

The wording on the packaging, its again muddled.

 

 

. 

 

 

.