Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Ron Ron Ron]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

 

........The guy in the video definitely emphasized HM7000 works on DC on non sound decoders . ......

 

 

His exact works were very poorly phrased, as he implied sound decoders wouldn't work at all on an analogue power supply (DC).

Not only having no sound function !

I'm fairly sure that wasn't what he meant?

 

It does raise the question why their sound decoders might not work (sound only or in their entirety) on a fixed DC power supply, using Bluetooth control.

(Note that this is not at all comparable with trying to use a regular DCC sound decoder on an analogue DC controlled layout).

 

The sound decoder will be receiving a full range of control signals (commands) directly from the app, via Bluetooth.

The fixed voltage DC power supply is only providing a source of power for the decoder to draw on;  provided that the fixed voltage supply is of adequate amperage (e.g. the 4 amp example given by Hornby).

So where is the problem?

 

There is no such limitation with the BlueRail Trains system, the SoundTraxx Blunami, or the Tam Valley BlueRailDCC decoders, the latter of which can use on-board DC battery power.

These only require a DC or DCC power supply via the rails, or a DC supply from onboard batteries.

Alternative systems, such as the Ring Engineering RailPro, can use all these as well as AC via the rails

 

 

..

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Therefore I'd suggest that most plain track is powered and as @spamcan61 said, just leave the complex bits unwired. 

 

But without shorts within the unwired sections...

[NIK]

5 minutes ago, KDG said:

Advice please.

 

I get confused with the tech stuff. Bought a z21, but can't even cope with that.

 

If  I was to purchase 73109, which is sound fitted, and one lf these dongles, can I control the loco with sound features using by H&M 12v dc controller? (which Dad bought 50 years ago in a shop on Smithdown Lane)

 

Thanks

Hi,

 

The dongle seems to allow the Bluetooth app to talk to certain DCC command stations.

So it seems unlikely that it will do anything with an H&M 12v dc controller.

 

The Hornby Magazine Youtube video seems to imply that HM series TXS sound decoders which R30176TXS Class 73 Rail Road plus class 73 will be equipped with may/will not work with DC controllers. The H&M 12v dc controller is a DC controller.

 

Hopefully things will become clearer in time.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Legend]

16 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

His exact works were very poorly phrased, as he implied sound decoders wouldn't work at all on an analogue power supply (DC).

Not only having no sound function !

I'm fairly sure that wasn't what he meant?

 

It does raise the question why their sound decoders might not work (sound only or in their entirety) on a fixed DC power supply, using Bluetooth control.

It's not at all compatible with trying to use a regular DCC sound decoder on an analogue DC controlled layout.

 

The sound decoder will be receiving a full range of control signals (commands) directly from the app, via Bluetooth.

The fixed voltage DC power supply is only providing a source of power for the decoder to draw on;  provided that the fixed voltage supply is of adequate amperage (e.g. the 4 amp example given by Hornby).

So where is the problem?

 

There is no such limitation with the BlueRail Trains system, the SoundTraxx Blunami, or the Tam Valley BlueRailDCC decoders, the latter of which can use on-board DC battery power.

These only require a DC or DCC power supply via the rails, or a DC supply from onboard batteries.

Alternative systems, such as the Ring Engineering RailPro, can use all these as well as AC via the rails

 

 

..

 

Yes very interesting Ron 

 

I think we do need clarification on whether sound will work on 12v analogue .  They must have tested this . They should probably be able to advise output required. I’m sure this will emerge when these decoders are released . I will wait until then to see if HM7000 does have the ability to deliver sound on what would otherwise be an analogue controlled  layout 

 

As I’ve said before , for me the ability to operate my layout from a device is not an advantage . I use devices for far too many things as it is . I like the old form of  simple analogue control where I turn the knob on the controller and the train goes . What would have been the game changer to me would be the ability to run a DCC sound loco on an otherwise analogue layout , accepting the sound loco would need to be controlled through a device . 
 

I have been looking at new controllers . It will be analogue as I have too many old locomotives I still run. The Morley range of controllers looks good.  Might wait until the way ahead is clearer before making the choice 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Legend

[NIK]

11 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

His exact works were very poorly phrased, as he implied sound decoders wouldn't work at all on an analogue power supply (DC).

Not only having no sound function !

I'm fairly sure that wasn't what he meant?

 

It does raise the question why their sound decoders might not work (sound only or in their entirety) on a fixed DC power supply, using Bluetooth control.

It's not at all compatible with trying to use a regular DCC sound decoder on an analogue DC controlled layout.

 

The sound decoder will be receiving a full range of control signals (commands) directly from the app, via Bluetooth.

The fixed voltage DC power supply is only providing a source of power for the decoder to draw on;  provided that the fixed voltage supply is of adequate amperage (e.g. the 4 amp example given by Hornby).

So where is the problem?

 

There is no such limitation with the BlueRail Trains system, the SoundTraxx Blunami, or the Tam Valley BlueRailDCC decoders, the latter of which can use on-board DC battery power.

These only require a DC or DCC power supply via the rails, or a DC supply from onboard batteries.

Alternative systems, such as the Ring Engineering RailPro, can use all these as well as AC via the rails

 

 

..

 

Hi,

 

 

If the TXS sound decoders turn out not to work on DC controllers (as opposed to a fixed 15V DC from a Hornby wall wart) it could be for marketing reasons or it could be due to technical reasons.

On the technical side they might have made the hardware and firmware cheaper by not including stuff needed to make the sound work on reduced voltages.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Indeed - I can't see many people who have an Android phone going out and buying an Apple smartphone just for their model railway. I certainly would not.

 

 

As already pointed out, the Hornby info clearly says that an Android app will be coming.

 

Apps being released for iOS before (often long before) an app is released for Android devices (if ever), is very common in many areas.

It's much harder for developers to produce an Android app, to cater for the myriad versions of Android OS, which are usually customised or modified with extra layers, by each individual phone manufacturer.

That's on top of the different versions of the regularly updated OS.

This is particularly the case for smaller sized developers with limited resources in manpower, money and time.

iOS is much easier to support, as there is only one variety and each update of the OS is uniform across all iPhones and iPads.

 

There have been plenty of examples with certain product lines, where the manufacturer has given up on supporting and updating their Android version of their own app; dropping it completely after a few years.

 

I've no doubt Hornby will be delivering the Android app, as I'm sure they'll be selling the HM DCC product across their (predominantly Android using) European market.

 

 

 

.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Haymarket47]

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. I am right in thinking that these new Hornby Bluetooth decoders can not be controlled by computer controlled software such as Itrain etc? 

[RedgateModels]

2 minutes ago, Haymarket47 said:

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. I am right in thinking that these new Hornby Bluetooth decoders can not be controlled by computer controlled software such as Itrain etc? 

 Not via bluetooth but they will still function as conventional DCC decoders, so as long as you have something like a SPROG connected to your computer they will work. You'll need the app to load sounds onto the sound versions though.

[1ngram]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With due respect chaps, I think the battery power discussion belongs elsewhere.

It’s not part of this Hornby release and therefore only marginally relevant to this thread.

 

 

.

Where?  I am completely ignorant, the proverbial (seventy) five year old who only comprehends very simple things but it seems to me that if I had a battery (and decoder?) In each of my locos with Bluetooth orders coming from an App from an Android with the battery rechargeable via perhaps the now redundant wipers on the loco on a section of track especially left powered for this purpose somewhere on the layout, we would have made a major advance.

 

This may be unattractive to some Railway Modellers but objections I've read here all seem to have been of the kind that the onward march of technology can overcome.  What really needs to be superceded or overcome to achieve this?  Smaller more powerful batteries?  Is that all?  

[RAF96]

World of Railways has a demo video of the kit from last December, presented by the Hornby Project Manager. Things have moved along apace since then.

[NIK]

11 minutes ago, Haymarket47 said:

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. I am right in thinking that these new Hornby Bluetooth decoders can not be controlled by computer controlled software such as Itrain etc? 

Just to add to what Redgate Models said. The HM7000 series decoders have both DCC and Bluetooth capability in each decoder.

So providing they are sufficiently DCC compliant they should work with DCC command stations. So if your DCC command station is supported by iTrain or similar then the 7000 series loco decoders should work. with that computer controlled software (extent of operation will depend on the feature set of the HM7000 decoders and I think details have not been published yet).

 

Regards

 

Nik

Edited January 11, 2023 by NIK

[RAF96]

10 minutes ago, Haymarket47 said:

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. I am right in thinking that these new Hornby Bluetooth decoders can not be controlled by computer controlled software such as Itrain etc? 

In DCC mode they are no different from any other decoder. If it works with your Lenz, Zimo or even a knock off it will work with 7000 decoders.

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, RAF96 said:

 or even a knock off 

 

whoever do your mean? 🤣

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

 

If the TXS sound decoders turn out not to work on DC controllers (as opposed to a fixed 15V DC from a Hornby wall wart) it could be for marketing reasons or it could be due to technical reasons.

On the technical side they might have made the hardware and firmware cheaper by not including stuff needed to make the sound work on reduced voltages.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

Hi Nik,

There was no mention of reduced voltages.

The Hornby chap's statement in the video, was in direct response to the question of using a fixed voltage 15v power supply, not a DC controller (which would be the same, if set on full power).

 

My question, is why would this be the case, as a DCC decoder will usually "harvest" a power source, whether DC or DCC ?

 

A DCC system doesn't control anything, it sends out DCC commands (instructions), for the decoder to act upon and control whatever it is attached to.

(In a loco that would be motor control and auxiliary functions, such as lights, sound, and other outputs.

In an accessory decoder, that would be to operate point motors, servos, signals, lighting etc, etc.).

Motive power and power to enable the decoder circuitry to function, comes as a byproduct of the DCC system amplifying the voltage and current of the digital signal (higher than would be necessary just to send control signals), to a useable level of voltage and power, that can also be "harvested" and rectified to fulfil those needs.

 

By sending control signals directly to a decoder by radio (in this case Bluetooth), a suitable power supply will be required to enable the decoder to function and provide a source of motive and accessory power.

A suitable, fixed voltage DC supply of adequate power rating (x amps) should be all that's needed, irrespective of whether the decoder is of the sound or non-sound variety.

 

Do these new Hornby sound decoders have operation on DC disabled or designed out?

 

.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, 1ngram said:

This may be unattractive to some Railway Modellers but objections I've read here all seem to have been of the kind that the onward march of technology can overcome.  What really needs to be superceded or overcome to achieve this?  Smaller more powerful batteries?  Is that all?  

It's not as simple as that.

Any loco made for mainstream purchase that can be operated on batteries must also be totally compatible with basic DC and normal DCC

That means a motor operating at 12-15v DC

Single Lithium Ion batteries which have the best capacity per volume in normal rechargeable batteries are about 3.5-3.7v, so you will need a pack of 3 or 4 not the single battery which can operate a drone etc.

They are still huge compared to the limited space in small locos. I sometimes find limited opportunities for adding extra weight

They need a special charging circuit, so if using track current that also has to be incorporated.

 

If the present limiting factors can be overcome, then great, but for most people it will likely be some time before it is a practical proposition.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by melmerby

[Ron Ron Ron]

Could we please take the battery power discussion elsewhere.  

 

[daltonparva]

I presume these decoders can be over-written more than just the initial loading? I was thinking of trying one with the Turbomotive sound as listed, to see what sound Hornby has used, as I suppose it should be a different sound to a "straight" Princess, then maybe changing the sound to something else listed.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

I presume these decoders can be over-written more than just the initial loading? I was thinking of trying one with the Turbomotive sound as listed, to see what sound Hornby has used, as I suppose it should be a different sound to a "straight" Princess, then maybe changing the sound to something else listed.

 

It was clearly stated that you can overwrite the sound projects with a different one.

So if you reuse the decoder in a different loco, you can download the appropriate sound profile and load it into the loco.

They said this process can be repeated as many times as you want.

 

The same would follow, if an improved or updated version of the same loco's sound file were released.

 

Note, they are saying that the sound project includes CV tweaks, appropriate to the performance characteristics of that particular type of locomotive.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[NIK]

29 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Hi Nik,

There was no mention of reduced voltages.

The Hornby chaps statement, was in direct response to the question of using a fixed voltage 15v power supply, not a DC controller (which would be the same, if set on full power).

 

My question, is why would this be the case, as a DCC decoder will usually "harvest" a power source, whether DC or DCC ?

 

A DCC system doesn't control anything, it sends out DCC commands (instructions), for the decoder to act upon and control whatever it is attached to.

(In a loco that would be motor control and auxiliary functions, such as lights, sound, and other outputs.

In an accessory decoder, that would be to operate point motors, servos, signals, lighting etc, etc.).

Motive power and power to enable the decoder circuitry to function, comes as a byproduct of increasing (amplifying) the digital signal to a useable level of voltage and power, that can also be "tapped into" or "harvested" and rectified to fulfil those needs.

 

By sending control signals directly to a decoder by radio (in this case Bluetooth), a suitable power supply will be required to enable the decoder to function and provide a source of motive and accessory power.

A suitable, fixed voltage DC supply of adequate power rating (x amps) should be all that's needed, irrespective of whether the decoder is of the sound or non-sound variety.

 

Do these new Hornby sound decoders have operation on DC disabled or designed out?

 

.

 

Hi,

 

The only thing I can think of at present from a technical point of view is that Hornby are deriving some information from the timing of the DCC pulses in order to get the TXS sound to work.

 

Could be they are deriving an interrupt or similar from a circuit locked to the period of the DCC transitions in order to simplify the sound generation.

 

EDIT

 

If they are I hope the circuit that locks on to the DCC transitions can ignore Railcom cutouts. END EDIT

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited January 11, 2023 by NIK

[Ron Ron Ron]

The technicalities are beyond my level of understanding Nik.

 

All I know, is that it should be possible to operate both sound and non-sound bluetooth (NMRA compliant) decoders on a fixed DC power source, as demonstrated by the very existence of similar Bluetooth control products on sale right now.

 

If the Hornby Bluetooth sound decoders cannot work on that basis, they have fundamentally scuppered this product at birth.

i.e.  Hornby HM DCC will not be fit for purpose.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[NIK]

11 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The technicalities are beyond my level of understanding Nik.

 

All I know, is that it should be possible to operate both sound and non-sound bluetooth (NMRA compliant) decoders on a fixed DC power source, as demonstrated by the very existence of similar Bluetooth control products on sale right now.

 

If the Hornby Bluetooth sound decoders cannot work on that basis, they have fundamentally scuppered this product at birth.

i.e.  Hornby HM DCC will not be fit for purpose.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

.

Hi,

 

Maybe Hornby have a different purpose. I have a copy of Hornby Virtual Railway that refuses to start on my laptop due to lack of support for mobile video chip sets. Its the only piece of software that I've bought that has failed to start.

 

When Hornby mentioned they were going to do a loco ID system they said it would only do 110 locos - was that the absolute technical limit or the technical limit for the price point or to avoid patent infringements or for marketing purposes?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Coryton]

57 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Hi Nik,

There was no mention of reduced voltages.

The Hornby chap's statement, was in direct response to the question of using a fixed voltage 15v power supply, not a DC controller (which would be the same, if set on full power).

 

My question, is why would this be the case, as a DCC decoder will usually "harvest" a power source, whether DC or DCC ?

 

A DCC system doesn't control anything, it sends out DCC commands (instructions), for the decoder to act upon and control whatever it is attached to.

(In a loco that would be motor control and auxiliary functions, such as lights, sound, and other outputs.

In an accessory decoder, that would be to operate point motors, servos, signals, lighting etc, etc.).

Motive power and power to enable the decoder circuitry to function, comes as a byproduct of increasing (amplifying) the digital signal to a useable level of voltage and power, that can also be "tapped into" or "harvested" and rectified to fulfil those needs.

 

By sending control signals directly to a decoder by radio (in this case Bluetooth), a suitable power supply will be required to enable the decoder to function and provide a source of motive and accessory power.

A suitable, fixed voltage DC supply of adequate power rating (x amps) should be all that's needed, irrespective of whether the decoder is of the sound or non-sound variety.

 

Do these new Hornby sound decoders have operation on DC disabled or designed out?.

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but my interpretation of the response below from Simon Kohler is that they don't claim operation of sound chips from a DC controller turned up to maximum voltage because it may not be able to provide enough current for them to work. So - a 2 amp DC supply directly to the tracks should be fine (at least to run one locomotive).

 

(Also I don't understand the comment above about amplifying a digital signal to increase voltage and power - doesn't a DCC chip just take the "AC" DCC track voltage and use pulse width modulation to control motor speed?)

 

5 hours ago, SeanTT said:

I contacted Simon this morning on the back of another email I sent last night and this is his reply:

 

From: Simon Kohler
Sent: 11 January 2023 09:17
To: Sean
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Dear Sean,

 

Thanks for your email.

 

Much depends on the size of the transformer ie amperage. 1amp maybe OK with sound but we cannot guarantee that hence focussing on non-sound.  There is a chance it would be OK but it can be marginal.

 

I hope that helps.

 

If you need more clarity please do not hesitate, ask.

 

Kind regards

 

Simon

 

From: Sean
Sent: 11 January 2023 08:51
To: Simon Kohler <Simon.Kohler@Hornby.com>
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Good Morning Simon,

 

Thank you for your prompt response and answering my question,

 

One more question if you can, If using HM7000 and a DC Controller or just the transformer with adapter will you be able to get sound from the locos?

 

In this video: https://youtu.be/h5kZ6wPnYYQ around the 10 minute 30 second mark the Hornby guy demonstrating says “you can use an analogue supply with our non sound decoders” so does this mean no sound if using DC/Analogue?

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Sean

 

 

===============================================================

 

 

[rogerzilla]

50 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

I presume these decoders can be over-written more than just the initial loading? I was thinking of trying one with the Turbomotive sound as listed, to see what sound Hornby has used, as I suppose it should be a different sound to a "straight" Princess, then maybe changing the sound to something else listed.

I would be surprised if there is a really good sound sample of Turbomotive.   The only film I've found shows it simply made a hissing sound when running, although some railwaymen called it "Gracie Fields" because it was said to make a singing sound at certain nozzle settings.  At least it won't need synchronising to the wheels! 

 

Oh and, for realism, it ought to be much slower, and probably make less noise, going tender-first.

 

 

[NIK]

Hi Coryton,

 

That's encouraging. I didn't see SKs response. So some locos plus MH7000 DCC , bluetooth and sound decoder can draw more than 1 amp.

 

I've got a new design Hornby HST that draws 600ma just to turn its wheels slowly. So a back of fag packet estimation 600ma motor, 50ma? for digital part of decoder if its a 32 bit MCU with DSP, 50ma? for Bluetooth Mesh part and 250ma for sound is just under an amp at 12V?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[The Evil Bus Driver]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

The venerable BBC Micro had an RS485 serial port but you can't control Xpressnet devices with it😄

Oh blimey I remember those... Seriously retro nowadays.

Edited January 11, 2023 by The Evil Bus Driver