Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

RailCom has largely been ignored by the American DCC world

I realise that but block occupancy detection is present on even the most basic US DCC systems.

Without it proper automatic operation can't easily be done and I can't see that there is a way a decoder linked by radio could easily be pinpointed on the layout.

How are you going to know which hidden siding you left loco 'X' in?

 

Yes it can be done but it is pretty complicated (AFAIK) needing to measure propagation time in minute fractions of a second accurately and you would need several transmit/receiving points to do the triangulation.

 

 

[SeanTT]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

To get sound working with these decoders, you only have to provide a 15v DC supply to the track  (it can be from a simple 15v power adapter) and download the FREE app.

A DCC system is not necessary. The app is the DCC system.

 

If you also want to use non-Bluetooth decoders (sound and non-sound), you would need to purchase a DCC system and say goodbye to DC running.

 

 

.

Thanks for the response. Not sure if you watched the video but the Hornby employee says DC will not work with the sound? 

 

He literally says the non sound decoders etc. 

 

Sorry just want to be sure and to not have to spend a fortune on dcc equipment. 

 

Sean

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, lyneux said:

In networking terms (using the OSI layered model), then RS485 operates as physical layer protocol (layer 1)

The venerable BBC Micro had an RS485 serial port but you can't control Xpressnet devices with it😄

[lyneux]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The venerable BBC Micro had an RS485 serial port but you can't control Xpressnet devices with it😄

If your beeb spoke xpressnet using it then why not? Just need to write the compatible software. Because it hasn’t been done doesn’t mean it can’t.

Edited January 10, 2023 by lyneux

[NIK]

23 minutes ago, melmerby said:

No real problem with accessory decoders but block occupancy & Railcom with Bluetooth?

Not sure how you could incorporate that with no track signals available to get any train positions.

Maybe Hornby haven't given up hope with the loco ID system they mentioned a number of years ago?.

 

I did notice a component on the R7336 that could have been a magnetic sensor. At first I thought it might be just for counting wheel revolutions for synching steam sound using a powerful magnet inserted into the final drive gear of the loco chassis but it might also be for detecting a pattern of magnets along the track. However unless the decoder is near the track it might be difficult to make the magnets close enough together to be retro fitted in a strip between the rails. The magnets could be fitted into recesses in the underside of the sleepers.

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, lyneux said:

If your beeb spoke xpressnet using it then why not? Just need to write the compatible software.

You probably could because the Xpressnet protocol is freely available.

Edited January 10, 2023 by melmerby

[lyneux]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You probably could because the Expressnet protocol is freely available.

I can tell you it works because I have built my own Xpressnet throttle using an arduino and was looking to do something similar to the Hornby Dongle myself.

 

It’s an ugly protocol though when you go down the rabbit hole! Spec is here: https://wiki.rocrail.net/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=xpressnet:xpressnet-v2.pdf

 

But at least it’s ‘open’…

 

Guy

Edited January 10, 2023 by lyneux

[andyman7]

9 minutes ago, SeanTT said:

Thanks for the response. Not sure if you watched the video but the Hornby employee says DC will not work with the sound? 

 

He literally says the non sound decoders etc. 

 

Sorry just want to be sure and to not have to spend a fortune on dcc equipment. 

 

Sean

Provided you connect the ordinary DC controller and turn it up to maximum power, and then control your HM7000 decoder fitted loco via the app you will get sound. If you do not use the app and instead just control the loco from the DC controller, it looks like no sound. But why would you do that when the app is free?

[Jester]

This is something I can definitely see a use for. My layout is DCC and in the loft but i've been looking at making some small shunting layouts I can play with in winter when the loft is too cold. This solution removes the need to buy another dcc controller setup whist retaining compatability. 

 

There is huge potenital here but Hornby don't have a great track record with dcc so hopefully they've brought in some new people who actually know what there doing.

 

The other thing i'd like to know is the compatability of these chips with coreless motors. I had problems getting a next18 chip to work with my Bachmann 94xx as many, particularly budget, decoders dont work with coreless motors.

[Patriot87003]

I’m getting my head around this new HM7000 system … it does sound very interesting with many possibilities.

 

I’m figuring that one benefit of the HM7000 approach is that it maybe less likely to fry Bluetooth decoder? Also less likely to kill a DC loco motor by placing on DCC? (If the existing DC power inputs to the track are kept).

 

Also another benefit being annoying short circuits are less likely to ‘stop the job’ if DC power to the track is kept? (Such as at diamond crossings).

 

My current layout is DC and for me to transition to DCC would require either a lot of decoders up front or very careful management of isolation sections or removing non-decoder fitted loco’s from the layout until fitted.

 

If I understand HM7000 correctly, I could keep my DC cab-control setup as currently (and drive from the existing control panel), but gradually transition to the HM7000 App by purchasing more decoders over time (and when operating those locos fitted with the decoders, simply switch the decoder mode then crank up the DC control knobs to full power).

[Patriot87003]

15 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Provided you connect the ordinary DC controller and turn it up to maximum power, and then control your HM7000 decoder fitted loco via the app you will get sound. If you do not use the app and instead just control the loco from the DC controller, it looks like no sound. But why would you do that when the app is free?

Fair question … my layout is DC with Gaugemaster panel controllers and I also have the option to switch two ‘cabs’ to use the HM6000 and App from my IPad.

 

I much prefer the controllability and feel of the panel controller ‘knobs’ … and I can easily keep an eye on and control multiple trains at once, often up to 6. The downsides being I have to use cab-control principles, I can’t ‘walkabout’ with the panel controllers and not able to control lights, other functions etc being DC only.

 

I’ve found the HM6000 very useful for some purposes, especially being able to ‘walkabout’ my shed to control one or two cabs/loco’s … but the feel and controllability via the App is just not the same as a knob.

 

Hence every time I’m back at the control panel, I revert back to control via the panel controllers.

 

I’ll be very interested to see if the feel of the HM7000 app is any better … 

[Ron Ron Ron]

50 minutes ago, SeanTT said:

Thanks for the response. Not sure if you watched the video but the Hornby employee says DC will not work with the sound? 

 

He literally says the non sound decoders etc. 

 

Sorry just want to be sure and to not have to spend a fortune on dcc equipment. 

 

Sean

Thanks for the video link Sean.

He does indeed state only non-sound decoders work on a straight, fixed DC supply.

 

If that is indeed the case, then the Hornby system doesn’t match up to the BlueRail Trains and SoundTraxx Blunami decoders, as they will allow sound on a fixed DC supply.

It really undermines the whole value of the Hornby HM7000 product range, if it can’t be used without a DCC system being involved, to run sound fitted locos.

 

Mind you, the poor wording he uses, could imply that sound decoders don’t work at all on a DC supply.

Quote: “…you can use an analogue supply with our non-sound decoders….”

Implying that sound decoders can’t even move or operate.

That surely must be wrong?

 

 

.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

He does indeed state only non-sound decoders work on a straight, fixed DC supply.

 

Though the 73 was fitted with a sound decoder at least he said at the start of the video...

[NIK]

There was a discussion in the video about running HM7000 decoders on an analogue supply and Mike Wild mentioned the HM6000 in that discussion so I think it would be safe to assume that the Hornby man was saying only the non sound HM7000 decoders will work on an analogue supply. I took that to mean variable voltage DC controllers to adjust speed.

 

Even that doesn't pin things down because what is meant by work?

Does the Bluetooth still work on a variable DC controller and if so does it work down to the same voltages as DCC decoders in DC compatibility mode?.

[BachelorBoy]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

There's probably already a naughty channel with a somewhat similar name.😉

Videos of locos with massive pistons, going into tunnels. Etc.

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Do you think battery makers just sit on their hands and aren't doing anything to try and make them smaller? It's not up to model train companies to do battery development

Until someone comes up with a new type of battery formulation that has a much higher capacity per volume we're stuck with variations on Li-ion technology

Compare to what was around 20 years ago.

If i can make a £9.99 drone fly using a low voltage DC motor with a 5mm x 15mm battery, i dont see why a loco cannot move itself with them. This is 2022, cheap tech like this exists. It just needs embracing in the hobby.

 

 

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If i can make a £9.99 drone fly using a low voltage DC motor with a 5mm x 15mm battery, i dont see why a loco cannot move itself with them. This is 2022, cheap tech like this exists. It just needs embracing in the hobby.

 

 

With a 9 second stay alive and control via wireless rather than the track I'd be tempted to not bother wiring up the 'difficult' bits of a new layout (point frogs, crossovers) as the trains would be able to cope with gaps (unless I left a sound loco sitting on a dead section for too long..) and that's with what's available now/shortly. Proper batteries would be even better, goodbye regular track cleaning.

[RedgateModels]

9 hours ago, lyneux said:

I can tell you it works because I have built my own Xpressnet throttle using an arduino and was looking to do something similar to the Hornby Dongle myself.

 

It’s an ugly protocol though when you go down the rabbit hole! Spec is here: https://wiki.rocrail.net/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=xpressnet:xpressnet-v2.pdf

 

But at least it’s ‘open’…

 

Guy

 

I'm assuming the NCE protocol is closed ......

[SeanTT]

8 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Thanks for the video link Sean.

He does indeed state only non-sound decoders work on a straight, fixed DC supply.

 

If that is indeed the case, then the Hornby system doesn’t match up to the BlueRail Trains and SoundTraxx Blunami decoders, as they will allow sound on a fixed DC supply.

It really undermines the whole value of the Hornby HM7000 product range, if it can’t be used without a DCC system being involved, to run sound fitted locos.

 

Mind you, the poor wording he uses, could imply that sound decoders don’t work at all on a DC supply.

Quote: “…you can use an analogue supply with our non-sound decoders….”

Implying that sound decoders can’t even move or operate.

That surely must be wrong?

 

 

.

I contacted Simon this morning on the back of another email I sent last night and this is his reply:

 

From: Simon Kohler
Sent: 11 January 2023 09:17
To: Sean
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Dear Sean,

 

Thanks for your email.

 

Much depends on the size of the transformer ie amperage. 1amp maybe OK with sound but we cannot guarantee that hence focussing on non-sound.  There is a chance it would be OK but it can be marginal.

 

I hope that helps.

 

If you need more clarity please do not hesitate, ask.

 

Kind regards

 

Simon

 

From: Sean
Sent: 11 January 2023 08:51
To: Simon Kohler <Simon.Kohler@Hornby.com>
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Good Morning Simon,

 

Thank you for your prompt response and answering my question,

 

One more question if you can, If using HM7000 and a DC Controller or just the transformer with adapter will you be able to get sound from the locos?

 

In this video: https://youtu.be/h5kZ6wPnYYQ around the 10 minute 30 second mark the Hornby guy demonstrating says “you can use an analogue supply with our non sound decoders” so does this mean no sound if using DC/Analogue?

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Sean

 

 

===============================================================

 

Ill probably go with non sound decoders and then look at reviews after its been released (heard May 2023) and see if others have had any issues with DC/Analogue and sound

Edited January 11, 2023 by SeanTT

[Nile]

Sounds like this is still a work in progress!

[TomScrut]

50 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

dont see why a loco cannot move itself with them.

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Proper batteries would be even better, goodbye regular track cleaning.

 

 

But why do we want batteries in model trains? I'd get sick of charging them up. As I said before the great thing about model trains is that we can use what they run on to power them and they still look good and we don't need to worry about power reserves.

 

45 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

With a 9 second stay alive and control via wireless rather than the track I'd be tempted to not bother wiring up the 'difficult' bits of a new layout (point frogs, crossovers) as the trains would be able to cope with gaps (unless I left a sound loco sitting on a dead section for too long..) and that's with what's available now/shortly.

 

This is a good idea, combined with control from off track this would make sense.

[Nile]

Just watched the HM video, not having much experience with blue tooth I have a question. What is it's security like, and does this system have any? I don't particularly want my neighbour to be able to play with my trains.

[newbryford]

5 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

But why do we want batteries in model trains? I'd get sick of charging them up. 

 

 

A potential advantage of battery power is that they can be charged from the track.

Only some sections of track would need to be powered, so that the trains could be charged from those.

 

[PeterStiles]

2 minutes ago, Nile said:

What is it's security like, and does this system have any?

 

ONE PRESUMES(*) it'll work like the HM6000/6010 which involves a form of pairing; much like any other bluetooth device.

 

Are you worried about your neighbours accessing any of your other bluetooth devices (e.g. Philips Hue lightbulbs) ? You should be...


(which is like "assume" but you can't make fun of the word)

[TomScrut]

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

A potential advantage of battery power is that they can be charged from the track.

Only some sections of track would need to be powered, so that the trains could be charged from those.

 

 

Yeah, that's what I meant with the 2nd bit of my post. If it was a hybrid system then I would be 100% behind it. But not having to plonk the loco on a charging station or whatever to fill the batteries.