Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Ron Ron Ron]

What's really needed is a small HM7000 accessory decoder, say with 4 outputs, that can work with most types of point motors.

If they can deliver that for £20 - £25  retail, they'd be on to a winner.

 

 

 

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[E100]

Any idea what this is? https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7010-single-ble-accessory-controller-r7323

 

Also saw this https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7030-ble-txs-trackside-speaker-r7325

[RedgateModels]

3 minutes ago, E100 said:

Any idea what this is? https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7010-single-ble-accessory-controller-r7323

 

 

my guess

 

13 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

What's really needed is a small HM7000 accessory decoder, say with 4 outputs, that can work with most types of point motors.

If they can deliver that for £20 - £25  retail, they'd be on to a winner..

 

Sorry Ron, too expensive for you 🤣

[JSpencer]

18 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Can it?

Simon K describes having to switch between 2 different apps, when converting a layout from HM6000 DC to HM DCC.

 

 

.

 

Instead of using the old HM6000 DC apt to tell the HM6000 box to fire a point motor, you can now use the HM7000 app to tell the HM6000 box to fire the point motor.  However any other form of DCC controller still cannot fire the point the motor. Which is a pain if you are working the layout towards PC automation.

 

So a HM7000 accessory (I'm not sure I would really want a big box plugged into the mains for this) would best off capable using either the classic DC supply or DCC supply (i;e 15 volts from somewhere) and capable of firing the points from either HM7000 or DCC at the users whim. 

17 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

What's really needed is a small HM7000 accessory decoder, say with 4 outputs, that can work with most types of point motors.

If they can deliver that for £20 - £25  retail, they'd be on to a winner.

 

 

 

.

 

Yeah a small box powered by 15volts with ports to handle a few local motors would be dandy. 

[Legend]

16 hours ago, RAF96 said:

The reason using a cheap train-set controller at max chat is not recommended is because the PWM output from the DC controller can affect the decoder sound quality, hence either use a direct PSU to track supply or use the app in conjunction with your DCC controller. The anomaly was first noticed in the HM6K app which allows adjustment of PWM frequency and it was noted decoder fitted locos could run badly at some frequency settings.

The HM7K app sends commands over the air (OTA) to the decoders, so all that techno waffle about Railcom interrupts and other stuff can be ignored. The decoders do not support Railcom anyhow as they read and write CVs in quick time OTA.

 

Thanks RAF96 .  Define cheap trainset controller though .  I'm running Gaugemaster DS Controllers , can hardly be described as cheap trainset controller but I am aware that PWM output from it has been blamed for a brand new Bachmann 158 that runs well but sounds like a concrete mixer .  Would there be any DC Controllers that don't have PWM issues (the ones that Bachmann use to do tests apparently !)

[Ron Ron Ron]

28 minutes ago, E100 said:

Any idea what this is? https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7010-single-ble-accessory-controller-r7323

 

Also saw this https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7030-ble-txs-trackside-speaker-r7325

 

23 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Sorry Ron, too expensive for you 🤣

 

Tee Hee !

For 4 outputs that would be close enough though, especially if they can be discounted.

Not for a single output though.

My rough price for an accessory decoder was around £5 - £8 per point motor output, but I appreciate that all prices are increasing.

 

Hopefully the accessory decoder can work with most point motors and not just Hornby's ancient solenoid.

Also, hopefully in a small, neat box and not some great big lump.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[newbryford]

20 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Instead of using the old HM6000 DC apt to tell the HM6000 box to fire a point motor, you can now use the HM7000 app to tell the HM6000 box to fire the point motor.  However any other form of DCC controller still cannot fire the point the motor. Which is a pain if you are working the layout towards PC automation.

 

So a HM7000 accessory (I'm not sure I would really want a big box plugged into the mains for this) would best off capable using either the classic DC supply or DCC supply (i;e 15 volts from somewhere) and capable of firing the points from either HM7000 or DCC at the users whim. 

 

Yeah a small box powered by 15volts with ports to handle a few local motors would be dandy. 

 

Then use a "normal" DCC accessory decoder.

 

If you have an xpressnet capable DCC system, the legacy dongle should be able to interface with the DCC system and fire the point motor that way from your HM7000app

 

You would have to follow that path, if you wanted to control your non HM7000 decoder fitted locos.

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

Then a PC app containing the layout etc.... Again all this is for later and should be easy for Hornby to grow in to. 

How about a PC running Android in a virtualbox?

Some way to link TrainController or iTrain to the Android system running Hornby's Blue Tooth app, that could be a third party add-on.

 

Personally I can't see Hornby coming up with a PC link to the system let alone any proper automation, such as occupancy modules.

They've been in DCC long enough and you still need third party kit to do that.

[e30ftw]

 

 

Not sure if this has been posted

Edited January 12, 2023 by e30ftw

[frobisher]

58 minutes ago, melmerby said:

How about a PC running Android in a virtualbox?

 

"All" they need to do is make sure the Android app is also available on the Amazon App Store as well (some extra compliance stuff, but worth it) and that version will work with Windows 11 Android "stuff".

 

[melmerby]

Been doing some digging

The processor on the decoder is a custom version of a Nuvoton N57xxx series which are intended for smart home audio systems.

It appears to be based on an ARM M0 cortex

N.B. Hornby's versions are not listed on the website but the N57xxxx designation only applies to one range of devices.

 

The off the shelf versions have a 250mW amplifier into 8ohms at 0.5% distortion.

It has a 13 bit DAC running at 48kHz. How does that compare to the competition?

 

It can read and write to an off chip SPI flash memory.

 

The off the shelf version also has a USB programming input and can control motors (PWM) through a suitable power stage.

 

 

 

[NIK]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Been doing some digging

The processor on the decoder is a custom version of a Nuvoton N57xxx series which are intended for smart home audio systems.

It appears to be based on an ARM M0 cortex

N.B. Hornby's versions are not listed on the website but the N57xxxx designation only applies to one range of devices.

 

The off the shelf versions have a 250mW amplifier into 8ohms at 0.5% distortion.

It has a 13 bit DAC running at 48kHz. How does that compare to the competition?

 

It can read and write to an off chip SPI flash memory.

 

The off the shelf version also has a USB programming input and can control motors (PWM) through a suitable power stage.

 

 

 

Good digging.

 

Two of the off the shelf N57xxx series have 400mW amplifiers but I think most OO sound decoders are 3 watts.

Maybe Hornby will swap to another M0 based MCU for the production versions. I don't think I've yet seen a photo of the underside of a HM7000 decoder to see what components are under there.

Has there been a video featuring a TXS decoder playing sounds?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Coryton]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

Would there be any DC Controllers that don't have PWM issues (the ones that Bachmann use to do tests apparently !)

 

I do not think that all DC controllers use PWM outputs.

 

I think if there is a transistor attached a huge heat sink somewhere that's a clue it's not PWM.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hornby HM7000 FAQ's

 

Q.  Can I run HM7000 on an analogue layout?

A.   Yes, the HM7000 can be set to 'DC Analogue' mode; however, this is not always recommended and it is better to remove the HM7000 from your locomotive and swap it with a  

       blanking plate for analogue control. 

 

More mixed messages and confusion from Hornby !

 

The various videos that we've all been looking at, clearly state you can run HM DCC off a 15v DC supply, whether that's just a suitable power supply, or a DC controller turned up to full whack.

Now their FAQ page is recommending you don't do it and suggests removing the HM7000 decoder and fitting a blanking plug ???????

WTF ?

 

 

.

 

.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Grovenor]

That quote is clearly referring to using the DC controller to control the speed without the bluetooth, not to setting the controller on full whack and using the bluetooth.

Part of the problem of inadequate answers to poorly expressed questions. Better just to be patient and wait and see.

(And a good PWM controller would not be doing any pulsing at full chat so should be just fine. Its a poor design that still pulses as that means it never gets to full voltage).

[Les1952]

I asked SK about the new chips and whether it would be possible to sychronise the exhaust beat of steam locos to the position of the driving wheels to get 6 beats per revolution on a Gresley Pacific as it should be.

 

I got an email back to say he didn't know but would ask.

 

Shortly afterwards I got another email back with a lot of technical detail forwarded from the technical dept about CV2, 5 and 6 and how to adjust them to get a better approximation,  but the answer is NO.

 

It is being looked at for a future upgrade but isn't possible with the first generation of the new chips.

 

Hope this helps.  It has certainly persuaded me to stick with my NCE system and "full fat" sound.

 

Les

[scottrains29]

The Hornby website says the app will function with the Hornby eLink but the dongle is only for the select and the elite. To get the app to function with the eLink will it therefore use the Bluetooth connection on the laptop/pc to feed into the Railmaster software?

[newbryford]

24 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

The Hornby website says the app will function with the Hornby eLink but the dongle is only for the select and the elite. To get the app to function with the eLink will it therefore use the Bluetooth connection on the laptop/pc to feed into the Railmaster software?

 

Not all PCs have bluetooth capability.

 

The images show the dongle with the Roco Z21 and Lenz Compact - which are both xpressnet devices

It has been mentioned elsewhere that the e-link was planned to have a rJ12 xpressnet connection, but it never happened.

 

Still waiting for clarification that the dongle can communicate with multiple phones/tablets. or does it require one dongle per phone/tablet?

[scottrains29]

43 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Not all PCs have bluetooth capability.

 

The images show the dongle with the Roco Z21 and Lenz Compact - which are both xpressnet devices

It has been mentioned elsewhere that the e-link was planned to have a rJ12 xpressnet connection, but it never happened.

True, but the e-Link has been out for a while now and to advertise the new app as being able to function with e-Link they must have some other way to do this without an rj12 port.

 

It's very easy and cheap (£1 on eBay) to upgrade a pc to have Bluetooth capability.

In theory could it be possible for the app to communicate with Railmaster/e-Link using a standard Bluetooth connection?

 

This could potentially make a very powerful tool. You could have a fully automated layout (once they eventually release loco detection) and have the ability to intervene (play sounds, control locos) using your mobile. 

[JSpencer]

7 hours ago, scottrains29 said:

The Hornby website says the app will function with the Hornby eLink but the dongle is only for the select and the elite. To get the app to function with the eLink will it therefore use the Bluetooth connection on the laptop/pc to feed into the Railmaster software?

 

I suspect the eLink serves merely to provide power to the track. DCC fitted running by railmaster, HM7000 running via bluetooth and telephone. In anycase the railmaster/eLink does not seem to work with some of the latest DCC chips (zimo 18 pins for example).

Railmaster allows you to automate the layout so you would really want it to send signals to the locos and not the the phone app (of course IF both can do HM7000 and classic DCC fitted at the same time, this is a bonus).

[spamcan61]

9 hours ago, Les1952 said:

I asked SK about the new chips and whether it would be possible to sychronise the exhaust beat of steam locos to the position of the driving wheels to get 6 beats per revolution on a Gresley Pacific as it should be.

 

I got an email back to say he didn't know but would ask.

 

Shortly afterwards I got another email back with a lot of technical detail forwarded from the technical dept about CV2, 5 and 6 and how to adjust them to get a better approximation,  but the answer is NO.

 

It is being looked at for a future upgrade but isn't possible with the first generation of the new chips.

 

Hope this helps.  It has certainly persuaded me to stick with my NCE system and "full fat" sound.

 

Les

I would say the only way you'll ever get accurate exhaust beats is to have a sensor on a driving axle with a number of cams / lobes / some other (optical?)  means of  axle rotation detection equal to the number of beats required per revolution. That adds significant mechanical complexity to the loco, so I can't see it happening any time soon. OK with some processing electronics could get close, but it's always going to be an approximation.

Edited January 13, 2023 by spamcan61

[Limpley Stoker]

Could there be a possibility for the Bluetooth signal being transmitted to two sound chips simultaneously, one on the loco the other under the baseboard driving a woofer. This would transform the tinny sound of small speakers giving the missing bass ‘punch’

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, Limpley Stoker said:

Could there be a possibility for the Bluetooth signal being transmitted to two sound chips simultaneously, one on the loco the other under the baseboard driving a woofer. This would transform the tinny sound of small speakers giving the missing bass ‘punch’

Would be a tad expensive but I guess if you created a consist / double header of the loco and a sound chip equipped woofer that might work.

[JSpencer]

6 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I would say the only way you'll ever get accurate exhaust beats is to have a sensor on a driving axle with a number of cams / lobes / some other (optical?)  means of detection equal to the number of beats required per revolution. That adds significant mechanical complexity to the loco, so I can't see it happening any time soon. OK with some processing electronics could get close, but it's always going to be an approximation.

 TRS trains succeed in doing this but only work one loco at a time.

But good to see how well it performs when massed produced for Rapido in their yet to be announced BIG loco.

[Limpley Stoker]

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Would be a tad expensive but I guess if you created a consist / double header of the loco and a sound chip equipped woofer that might work.

Using the 6000 system my iphone will drive a Bluetooth speaker while the App drives the train. I use a tiny Bluetooth nano speaker in a van behind the loco for sound.
If the 7000 system could do this for a Bluetooth bass speaker while the loco chip drives  it’s mini speaker that would be a game changer. The only problem might be in synchronising the sound.