Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Izzy]

Are the sound files free to download? That once you have bought a decoder there is no other cost, not for the app or sound files?

 

Bob

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Are the sound files free to download? That once you have bought a decoder there is no other cost, not for the app or sound files?

 

Bob

Yes, would be vaguely interesting to know if you can download the sounds without buying a decoder, if they're not locked to a proprietary format used by the Hornby decoders.

Edited January 10, 2023 by spamcan61

[NoggintheNog]

They explicitly say the sound files are free in the Hornby Magazine write up.

[RAF96]

55 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Yes, would be vaguely interesting to know if you can download the sounds without buying a decoder, if they're not locked to a proprietary format used by the Hornby decoders.

To download onto what?

Through the app you pick a profile then choose a BLE capable decoder to download it to. No other way forward. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by RAF96

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Nope as there’s no way to do that without all locos having a sensor on the wheel or axle to do the synch. You can get close electronically but it always goes out. Zimo & Esu have inputs for it on their decoders but there’s not even mention of being able to alter the cv for chuff rate on these Hornby ones so far. You can alter cv’s but that requires Hornby to have those cv’s accessible. 
 

 

Appreciate a sensor would give absolute synchronicity but all current sound decoders apart from Hornby get very close indeed through CV's. The Hornby A3 at Warley demoing the 'steam' from the chimney gimmick was literally doing less than one chuff per revolution and sounded (and with 'steam' looked) ridiculous.  

[daltonparva]

1 hour ago, NoggintheNog said:

So, looking at the video, for those running lenz, Hornby or ECoS systems, that £30 dongle is -by far- the cheapest way of getting wireless control for an existing layout.

 

Depends on the app in its final form of course, but that is pretty impressive.

Not so. I have an ECoS, and have 2 separate free apps on my Android phone and tablet:- ECoS Controller and RtDrive ECoS. Didn't have to spend a penny for wireless control.

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Appreciate a sensor would give absolute synchronicity but all current sound decoders apart from Hornby get very close indeed through CV's. The Hornby A3 at Warley demoing the 'steam' from the chimney gimmick was literally doing less than one chuff per revolution and sounded (and with 'steam' looked) ridiculous.  

Yes but even when it gets close it doesn’t stay in the same synch across the speed range as the motor current feedback it relies on isn’t uniform. 
Until they release a full cv listing for their decoders we won’t know but it in theory can program it as long as there’s a template in the app. 

[RAF96]

18 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes but even when it gets close it doesn’t stay in the same synch across the speed range as the motor current feedback it relies on isn’t uniform. 
Until they release a full cv listing for their decoders we won’t know but it in theory can program it as long as there’s a template in the app. 

 

It will always be a fudge as the chuffs are recorded in static conditions not dynamic, hence they use up to 18 sound bytes applied within certain speed step brackets. You can fiddle with CVs all you like but it will be out at some point on the speed curve. The exception is direct triggering by sensor which is (will be) supported over a restricted speed range where visual discernment is possible, then it reverts to batching.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, John ks said:

IF, when you say "fitted with the HM7000" do you mean fitted with the decoder then my understanding is YES

My understanding is that the decoder needs power & that power can be DC, DCC or an onboard battery, (see my previous post)

 

Yes I meant fitted with an HM7000 Bluetooth decoder .

 

If that is the case then being able to run a DCC fitted loco , with sound on a DC layout (I appreciate the DC controller is turned to max output and control is through the app on your phone) is indeed a gamechanger .  I haven't looked at costs yet but this could be a relatively inexpensive experiment .  I know you can run DCC sound on DC but  the speed of the loco is affected .  It would be interesting to see how this is in comparison. 

[30801]

7 hours ago, BR Blue said:

I do not think you can say it is a game changer at this stage. You have been able to download sounds for other DCC systems for years. It depends on price of the system, the ease of use and quality of the sound. I think there are too many unknowns at this stage. Hopefully it will be good.

 

It's a game changer if you have a shop. Just one decoder does every loco. No worry about not being able to supply a customer with the sounds for the loco you just sold them and no bother about decoders for <unpopular loco> cluttering your shelves.

[E100]

In short very excited about the potential here.

 

A few questions/thoughts - many of which I'm not sure can be answered quite yet.

 

1. Is there a way to get this to talk to a digitrax system? 
2. Chances of this being open to loading other sounds/ 3rd party projects down the line? I.e. Hornby would still get the money from the decoder. They could even sell these like intel do with processors for a premium unlocked. Wishful thinking I reckon.
3. How do we use a different speaker / stay alive?
4. What's the sound quality like with the same speaker compared to the latest models.

I do wonder how many patents are involved here and whether ESU / Zimo could respond within a year or two.

[frobisher]

7 hours ago, Legend said:

I just turn the knob on my controller and the train goes . Completely lost on this . HM6000 was a Bluetooth analogue system . This seems to be replacing it but is DCC . What am I missing ?  Or does it have the ability to control a HM7000 equipped loco on analogue using smartphone .  Confused.com 

 

As I understand it, the HM6000 is a single loco system using any analogue loco and does what it says on the tin.  With this, you could have multiple, independently controllable locos (equipped with the decoders) running on the same track with just a power supply plugged into it, with the benefit that the chip fitted locos are fully DCC compatible.

 

If the HM6000 does everything you need it to, there is no need to upgrade and there wouldn't be an upgrade possible in any case.

 

As far as I can see, you can use an HM700 equipped loco on analogue control, provided you ramp the power up to max.  I don't know if they've stated that they have a "normal" DCC analogue mode for direct controller control.

[spamcan61]

3 hours ago, RAF96 said:

To download onto what?

Through the app you pick a profile then choose a BLE capable decoder to download it to. No other way forward. 

A competitors chip ? or if I was an unscrupulous competitor then I'd maybe save sound file creation costs by just using Hornby's files... but if it all done via the app and only the app then should be OK from Hornby's point of view.

[E100]

7 minutes ago, E100 said:

2. Chances of this being open to loading other sounds/ 3rd party projects down the line? I.e. Hornby would still get the money from the decoder. They could even sell these like intel do with processors for a premium unlocked. Wishful thinking I reckon.

 

Answering my own question via the FAQ which I hadn't seen...

 

 

[NIK]

The sound files will probably be encrypted to protect Hornby's investment in creating them.

 

If I were Hornby and it were possible I would keep the sound file encrypted if it is stored in an external EEPROM*. Then decrypt it in real time.

 

This would reduce the chance of the sound file data being recorded with digital fidelity by a logic analyser connected to the EEPROM data pins when the decoder is being commanded to play sounds.

 

* the 6 pin IC on the photo of the R7336 may be the serial EEPROM that would hold the sound file.

Regards

 

Nik

[Pmorgancym]

Having suitably steeled myself for some uncensored SK action...

 

This looks genuinely quite impressive and is potentially the biggest thing they've announced.

 

SK is not the right person to be presenting this he sells it with all the enthusiasm of a fax machine salesman who's had to convert to selling PC hardware.

It would be better with a physical demonstation.  Maybe they would have been better holding back till physical product was available for this.

The name hm7000 is needlessly clunky (again sounds like a 90s Graphics card) doesn't exactly.

 trip off the tongue.  Should have tried something like Hornby Bluetec or Hornby Blue Control maybe even just Hornby Blue.

And finally they need to go the whole hog and go to on-board power...

 

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

It's a game changer if you have a shop. Just one decoder does every loco. No worry about not being able to supply a customer with the sounds for the loco you just sold them and no bother about decoders for <unpopular loco> cluttering your shelves.

But that’s been the case with ESU and Zimo files for years just by having their programmer attached to your laptop and those files are far more extensive than the Hornby ones. Look at most DCC retailers websites and they ask you to select chip then sound file which they upload for you. 

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

It would be better with a physical demonstation. 

 

Why not watch the video I posted earlier?

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

maybe even just Hornby Blue.

Hornby Blue iT

 

I like it . . .      ;)

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Thanks, that is logical. I can just leave the DC controler at full whack and run it via blue tooth using the phone.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Nile said:

As I read it, when using a DC controller you turn it up to max and use the HM7000 to actually drive the loco. It's not clear if the loco can be "driven" by a DC controller alone.

 

This is one of the things that makes it a gamechanger for Hornby's market, because now every train set can go 'digital' just by adding the decoder and using the app. In fact if I have read the diagram correctly, you don't even need to use the Hornby set controller; the transformer unit supply can literally be plugged straight into the track.

 

 

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

It's a game changer if you have a shop. Just one decoder does every loco. No worry about not being able to supply a customer with the sounds for the loco you just sold them and no bother about decoders for <unpopular loco> cluttering your shelves.

This too - not least because the more that a common part can be supplied and stocked in quantity, the better the chance of keeping it available without supply gaps.

[Pmorgancym]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Why not watch the video I posted earlier?

But that's a 3rd party video I was commenting on the Hornby presentation, surprising for what seems such a 'big thing' that they don't have a demo video.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

This is great although I did use the Engine Driver app on my Android phone at Warley on our layout (Snowy River if anyone saw it) and that worked very well. (It was linked to a control box using a Raspberry Pi through a Sprog. You can do that using a laptop loaded with JMRI as well.)

I do wonder if this is a more plug and play version of that however for those who are nervous of soldering then this would be ideal and might give a boost to other decoder manufacturers. It might spur on more DCC sound and make more conventional sound decoders cheaper as the tech moves forward so I'll keep a very fascinated eye on the developments and see what happens. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by The Evil Bus Driver

[Pmorgancym]

Have to say I'm.kinda sold, When's it out I need a sound decoder for my 67 :)

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Pmorgancym said:

But that's a 3rd party video

 

It was done by my colleague, you didn't say who had to have made it. 😎

[30801]

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

But that’s been the case with ESU and Zimo files for years just by having their programmer attached to your laptop and those files are far more extensive than the Hornby ones. Look at most DCC retailers websites and they ask you to select chip then sound file which they upload for you. 

 

But they're more specialist shops than many Hornby retailers. My local shop's expertise lies in RC planes. I don't think they even bother stocking TTS decoders but they might stock blanks that I can sort out myself at home.