Hornby 2023 - New tooling - Salmon/YMO bogie wagon

[Tim Dubya]

Spotted on Facebook:

 

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/Hornby-salmon-wagon-first-shots 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Tim Dubya
correct url

[Mark Saunders]

6 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

Spotted on Facebook:

 

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/Hornby-salmon-wagon-first-shots 

 

 

It would be nice if they were available in kit form!

[adb968008]

On 08/07/2023 at 14:31, Mark Saunders said:

 

It would be nice if they were available in kit form!

Indeed, painted kits just needinf assembly may be worthwhile.

[cctransuk]

On 08/07/2023 at 14:24, Tim Dubya said:

Spotted on Facebook:

 

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/Hornby-salmon-wagon-first-shots 

 

 

Will it go round first radius curves? 😂

 

CJI.

[Ighten]

19 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Will it go round first radius curves? 😂

 

CJI.

Description says 2nd on the order page though I suspect it will look odd even on that

[Southernman46]

BR grey ??

The BR versions would have been black at first build - anyone have a route back into Hornby to ensure they don't make this mistake ? Update - See below

Really looking forward to these 🤞 & seeing if they're as good as my Cambrian kits 😊

Edited July 11, 2023 by Southernman46

[hmrspaul]

25 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

BR grey ??

The BR versions would have been black at first build - anyone have a route back into Hornby to ensure they don't make this mistake ?

Done

Paul

[cctransuk]

16 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Done

Paul

 

Does Hornby really not have anyone who knows these things?

 

The mind boggles!

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Does Hornby really not have anyone who knows these things?

 

The mind boggles!

 

CJI.

Having got it well wrong with BR livery Western Shunters' Trucks it doesn't surprise me in the least that Hornby could be getting it wrong once again with a departmental vehicle.   They used to know who to ask - why have they lost that sort of input?

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having got it well wrong with BR livery Western Shunters' Trucks it doesn't surprise me in the least that Hornby could be getting it wrong once again with a departmental vehicle.   They used to know who to ask - why have they lost that sort of input?

 

They are Hornby, they are past caring I assume, just another bullet to the foot.

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

29 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

They are Hornby, they are past caring I assume, just another bullet to the foot.

 

Mike.

 

There was a day - when it was Hornby Dublo (original) - that their rolling stock liveries could be relied upon as to what BR was using at that time.

 

Nowadays, I doubt that anyone at Hornby was even born when BR existed!

 

I'm glad that I will not be around to see what horrors they will produce come 2053!

 

CJI.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Does Hornby really not have anyone who knows these things?

 

The mind boggles!

 

CJI.

None of us have seen what they are doing, nor what era they are describing as BR. They have generously (far more than other companies!) paid me for a couple of photos that I understand they intend (intended) to use in their catalogue. I've not seen what they have published. I do think it very unfortunate that such an interesting wagon, which appears to have been very well modelled from the deconstructed photo, is being dismissed so readily. The finish of these wagons varied considerably down the years, especially as some workshops would consider the solebar to be the body and others the frame and there have been periods when these parts could be different colours, and others when they were the same - the first few years of departmental black. There are a lot of other BR era wagons where it was a local choice if the solebar was body or frame colour. 

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having got it well wrong with BR livery Western Shunters' Trucks it doesn't surprise me in the least that Hornby could be getting it wrong once again with a departmental vehicle.   They used to know who to ask - why have they lost that sort of input?

Do you have a photo of an LMS design (or built) Salmon taken in the first decade or so ? I don't. The BR batch were built nearly 75 years ago. The catalogue of Derby works photos has DB996001 as cat no. 37589 of 8/3/49 so it is possible that Hornby have traced a copy. Although there was agreement in the committee of March 1948 that the departmental wagons should have a distinguishing colour ( i.e not red for VB, VP or grey for unfit) there is no suggestion of what colour that should be. 

 

Shouldn't we just wait on more information becoming available?

 

Paul

PS - as other note, I am not independent in this.One of the YMO photos that Hornby paid for is definately not black (there is a black maintenance panel as a contrast) but I have no idea what the colour was. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by hmrspaul

[26power]

3 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

None of us have seen what they are doing, nor what era they are describing as BR. They have generously (far more than other companies!) paid me for a couple of photos that I understand they intend (intended) to use in their catalogue. I've not seen what they have published. I do think it very unfortunate that such an interesting wagon, which appears to have been very well modelled from the deconstructed photo, is being dismissed so readily. The finish of these wagons varied considerably down the years, especially as some workshops would consider the solebar to be the body and others the frame and there have been periods when these parts could be different colours, and others when they were the same - the first few years of departmental black. There are a lot of other BR era wagons where it was a local choice if the solebar was body or frame colour. 

 

Paul

The Hornby website information for all variations proposed uses the same image of yours for each one and acknowledges its source, see:

https://uk.Hornby.com/catalogue/train-sets-rolling-stock/wagons-wagon-packs?langPath=Hornby-uk&filters[Gauge]=OO&filters[min_price]=0&filters[max_price]=84.99&filters[Pre-Order]=true&filters[Brand]=&filters[Scale]=&filters[UK Era]=&filters[Website Exclusive]=&filters[mandatory_filter_by][product_br_category]=br-wagons-wagon-packs&page_id=320&sort_by=5&page=2&inputValueChanged=filters[Pre-Order]
 

The “tech specs” under each version gives some livery information.  The earliest one is given as LMS grey, the oldest one as BR departmental and the others as BR grey.  Given these aren’t going to be here until next year I suspect some of this information is just a work in progress!

 

[Ighten]

I think it's a bit early to start Hornby bashing on this one, let's just wait and see. 

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, Ighten said:

I think it's a bit early to start Hornby bashing on this one, let's just wait and see. 

It seems it's never too early. Or too late, for that matter.

[Enterprisingwestern]

16 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

It seems it's never too early. Or too late, for that matter.

 

Regrettably, that's what comes of having previous as they say!

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

11 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

None of us have seen what they are doing, nor what era they are describing as BR. They have generously (far more than other companies!) paid me for a couple of photos that I understand they intend (intended) to use in their catalogue. I've not seen what they have published. I do think it very unfortunate that such an interesting wagon, which appears to have been very well modelled from the deconstructed photo, is being dismissed so readily. The finish of these wagons varied considerably down the years, especially as some workshops would consider the solebar to be the body and others the frame and there have been periods when these parts could be different colours, and others when they were the same - the first few years of departmental black. There are a lot of other BR era wagons where it was a local choice if the solebar was body or frame colour. 

 

Paul

 

Agreed - but Hornby (and others) need to be far more circumspect in what they publish in advance of release.

 

There is a demand for this information, and reaction is immediate, so the need to check and double-check their information is paramount if a project is not to be released to a less than enthusiastic reception.

 

CJI.

[Southernman46]

Salmons are easy first they were black then olive green and then yellow and there were plenty of black ones left when they went green and plenty of green ones left when they went yellow.

[jonhall]

On 08/07/2023 at 14:24, Tim Dubya said:

Spotted on Facebook:

 

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/Hornby-salmon-wagon-first-shots 

 

 

All four bogie types on the same sprue, I wonder if we will see them available separately as parts?

 

jon

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

There was a day - when it was Hornby Dublo (original) - that their rolling stock liveries could be relied upon as to what BR was using at that time.

It was a lot easier back then as we didn't have TOCs being taken over or losing franchises every 5 minutes with a change of livery every time.

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

There was a day - when it was Hornby Dublo (original) - that their rolling stock liveries could be relied upon as to what BR was using at that time.

Of course it was easy, in 1951 all they needed do is walk down to the engine shed, ask for a paint sample.

 

Time machines dont exist, so some forgiveness and translation can be given, (but obviously not confusing grey and Black), or brown solebars on mark 1’s which it would appear every manufacturer is guilty of going back 50 years, if certain statements are correct.

 

what I dont understand is why in modern contemporary stuff today, with pantones and ral codes  they dont seem able to do the same on todays stuff.

i still dont know why they did a salmon anyway, theres a very good one out there already… They could have picked any number of other flat wagons.

Edited July 11, 2023 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 ... brown solebars ...

 

Joueff got this right on their Mk.3s.

 

I saw some ex-works stock and locos with brown undergear but, either it was widespread and got too mucky to tell, or the practice was soon abandoned.

 

CJI

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Southernman46 said:

Salmons are easy first they were black then olive green and then yellow and there were plenty of black ones left when they went green and plenty of green ones left when they went yellow.

 

Thanks to the anonymous 26 power for the link to the online catalogue. R60202 - what colour is this - your guess as good as mine. Northampton 1985, possibly originally olive green, includes all of the channel support of the frame - but not the bogies. As today often if (big if) a wagon is repainted they leave the bogies unaltered. And we don't know if that paint scheme is being reproduced, the photo is representative of the wagon. 

 

Anonymous Southernman46 Do you have photo proof?

What you are suggesting simply isn't true. It is of the later Salmons (nice photo of a new 1959 one in Don Rowlands BR Book), but not necessarily of the LMS/BR Borail which is what we are discussing. Looking at the two LMS wagon books - Essery and Morgan and the later Essery vol 2 - the LMS painted them Bauxite. But they have photos of BR era repaints of LMS ones and they are grey solebar, not black. BR liveries didn't settle until after a couple of years into nationalisation and I wasn't there! As I said earlier, the discussion that confirmed colours for revenue stock doesn't confirm a colour for engineers stock (nor for ventilated meat vans which is why we argue about the colour of BR meat vans (insulated vans white, but stone until white paint is available).

 

Now something positive, I have had a response from the Hornby designer our artwork man has assured me that any reference to grey is incorrect, with wagons either being black or green depending on era.

 

Paul

 

 

[hmrspaul]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Joueff got this right on their Mk.3s.

 

I saw some ex-works stock and locos with brown undergear but, either it was widespread and got too mucky to tell, or the practice was soon abandoned.

 

CJI

As I said elsewhere on here recently chocolate brown was definitely used on new Mk 2 coaches in c1965 or so - I distinctly remember looking for it at Euston or Kings X in my teens. 

 

Paul