Help pls!

[Godfish94]

Hi guys not sure what I'm doing wrong but some help would be great please. Having just purchased the Hornby GWR hst train set I have set it up with what comes in the box. When there is no loco on track the power works fine but the second a loco is on track it short circuit/cuts out within a second no matter how far the knob has been turned. I have tried older controller's and different locos with different power track, the old fashioned power clip all different combinations but the same result every time. Thank you guys for reading 

[Darius43]

By “ loco” do you mean the HST power car with the motor in it - as opposed to the dummy (no motor) HST power car?

 

Do you get the same short circuit with different locos on the track?

 

If it’s just the HST it sounds like there is a fault in the loco that is causing a short circuit.

 

In the circumstances it is probably best to take the complete set back to the shop where you bought it for a replacement or refund.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[ITG]

6 hours ago, Godfish94 said:

When there is no loco on track the power works fine

How do you know that? The fact that you turn the knob doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fine?

From your description of using different locos, different controllers, different connections, there’s too many permutations to work out what’s what.

First, are we talking DC or DCC? 
Was there a controller in the train set box? If so, is that one of the problem components?

Edited January 14, 2023 by ITG
Addition

[Darius43]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

How do you know that? The fact that you turn the knob doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fine?

From your description of using different locos, different controllers, different connections, there’s too many permutations to work out what’s what.

First, are we talking DC or DCC? 
Was there a controller in the train set box? If so, is that one of the problem components?

You might want to tone down the abruptness of your reply given that the person asking the questions is a new member and may not be that au fait with model railway electrics.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[ITG]

3 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

You might want to tone down the abruptness of your reply given that the person asking the questions is a new member and may not be that au fait with model railway electrics.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

The eye of the beholder I guess. Abrupt? I just asked a couple of questions. Trying to help but quite happy to drop out, but taking the whole set back to the retailer before trying to establish what the problem is, may be a waste of time. Especially as he does seem to refer to the problem affecting several locos.

[ikcdab]

With any problem solving like this you need to eliminate the variables and find the point where the problem occurs.  You say you have tried different Controllers and different locomotives but  you still have the same issue. Therefore they are not the issue. You could confirm this by taking apart and the track and just connecting up one single piece you the controller. If the loco runs on that single piece then you have made progress. If it doesn't then the problem could be with the power connector.

But a bit more detail whether it's DC or dcc and controller type will help.  What track layout do you have?

If you can give a bit more info then we can help further.

Ian

[JeffP]

IMHO forums like these are super difficult to judge the tone of any post or reply, even with emoticons.

I've noticed on occasion that some of my own replies appeared terse the day after, but were written when I had other things to do, but wanted to offer help asap, so were a bit hurried.

I remain banned from the other place because a touchy moderator felt I was too abrupt.😆

[Godfish94]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

How do you know that? The fact that you turn the knob doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fine?

From your description of using different locos, different controllers, different connections, there’s too many permutations to work out what’s what.

First, are we talking DC or DCC? 
Was there a controller in the train set box? If so, is that one of the problem components?

Yes literally as the train set is from the box with only the track from the box the controller from the box plus it comes as DC not chips have been added. Completely DC. 

[Godfish94]

2 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

With any problem solving like this you need to eliminate the variables and find the point where the problem occurs.  You say you have tried different Controllers and different locomotives but  you still have the same issue. Therefore they are not the issue. You could confirm this by taking apart and the track and just connecting up one single piece you the controller. If the loco runs on that single piece then you have made progress. If it doesn't then the problem could be with the power connector.

But a bit more detail whether it's DC or dcc and controller type will help.  What track layout do you have?

If you can give a bit more info then we can help further.

Ian

Thank you for your reply Ian, it is the Hornby R7229 controller that comes with the train set GWR high speed train. Dc and I have been testing it out on a basic oval but will try with a single piece. Thank you

[Godfish94]

3 hours ago, Darius43 said:

By “ loco” do you mean the HST power car with the motor in it - as opposed to the dummy (no motor) HST power car?

 

Do you get the same short circuit with different locos on the track?

 

If it’s just the HST it sounds like there is a fault in the loco that is causing a short circuit.

 

In the circumstances it is probably best to take the complete set back to the shop where you bought it for a replacement or refund.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Yes the hst power car lol, unfortunately not just the hst have tried multiple locos that a friend has borrowed me to try and find a solution (that I know work well) and yes get the same short circuit with different locos on the track. 

Thank you for the reply Darius!

[ikcdab]

8 minutes ago, Godfish94 said:

Yes literally as the train set is from the box with only the track from the box the controller from the box plus it comes as DC not chips have been added. Completely DC. 

If you have tried other controllers and locos with the same result and if you have tested the power clip, then the problem can only be with the track.  I would remove any points and try with a plain oval.

 

If you have other controllers and locos, do you have other track too? Can you set up an oval with different track and try the loco on that?

 

Try different combinations and see if you can get anything to run.

 

But if you can't sort it out easily, then it's probably best to return the set.

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Actually I dont think the power clip has been eliminated thus far. Its either that or the R7229. Depends how the unspecified other controller were conected to the track.

 

If there are any bare wires from the controller, touch them to the track together with a loco on it - with power on - loco should move. Bypasses power clip. Using a single piece of track I should add.

 

Using only an oval means only the power transfer can be the source of problems. Can I just be clear Mr Fish you have connected other locos and controllers together to the same oval of track and theres a short?

Edited January 14, 2023 by RobinofLoxley

[cypherman]

Ok Here is a simple test. It should rule out the engine. Just turn it upside down and touch the power leads to the wheels and see what happens. Do the complete permutation of trying all the wheels and pick ups. If all runs OK well then the engine should be fine and the fault is elsewhere. Good hunting with finding the fault. If it is a new set I personally would take it back to the retailer for a refund or replacement. Do not start taking it apart if it is as this will invalidate your warranty.

Just one other thought. I see this set comes with a point. Try running the power car without the point in the loop. It could be a faulty point shorting the whole thing out.

Edited January 14, 2023 by cypherman

[tomparryharry]

Vote #2 from here.  Try making a simple circle, with no points, etc. Essentially, there will be no possible way to have + or - polarity, unless there is a fault. Leave any rolling stock, etc, in the box; you won't need it right now. As Cypherman has said, leave the points in the box. Try a locomotive which is a known runner. 

 

Is it working?  Yes? Good! You now know that the electrical circuit from the power socket, controller and  Known Runner locomotive is complete. Now, try your HST power car. Working? Yes? Good! Now, build your oval of track. 

 

By testing each component at the build stage, you can (hopefully) eliminate the fault as & when  you add that part. The point & the power clip should be the only part where there is any possibility of a short-circuit.  Resist any  temptation to take bits apart. If it doesn't work, return to the place of purchase.

 

Edit: Late post! Yes, like they said! Have fun!

Edited January 14, 2023 by tomparryharry
late post

[ikcdab]

And most importantly, let us know how you get on!

[Il Grifone]

I'd test the power car with a good 9V battery across the pickups, which should make it operate. If not - return for replacement.

On the other hand, if it does function, the fault lies with the track (unlikely) or the power supply (likely). Again the battery across the track terminals will prove the point.

[Godfish94]

11 hours ago, cypherman said:

Ok Here is a simple test. It should rule out the engine. Just turn it upside down and touch the power leads to the wheels and see what happens. Do the complete permutation of trying all the wheels and pick ups. If all runs OK well then the engine should be fine and the fault is elsewhere. Good hunting with finding the fault. If it is a new set I personally would take it back to the retailer for a refund or replacement. Do not start taking it apart if it is as this will invalidate your warranty.

Just one other thought. I see this set comes with a point. Try running the power car without the point in the loop. It could be a faulty point shorting the whole thing out.

I have video evidence of what I'm about to say, makes 0 sense to me. When I run a Bachmann 56xx on the loop it runs perfectly but all my Hornby locos cause the cut out, only tried the 56xx today I am baffled

 

[cypherman]

1 hour ago, Godfish94 said:

I have video evidence of what I'm about to say, makes 0 sense to me. When I run a Bachmann 56xx on the loop it runs perfectly but all my Hornby locos cause the cut out, only tried the 56xx today I am baffled

 

OK, this is a strange one. Can I suggest that you lay a second basic loop of track using none of the track from the set.  Also, not using the power supply/transformer or the power connecting clip from the set and see what happens. There is a real very far out and completely left wing possibility that as it is only your Hornby engines that are having this problem that the power draw they are putting on the transformer is more than the transformer can cope with. Other members here with more knowledge may know if there is a difference between the Bachmann and Hornby locos power requirements. When you say, all your Hornby engines are having the same problem. Just how many is all?.

Edited January 14, 2023 by cypherman

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

OK, this is a strange one. Can I suggest that you lay a second basic loop of track using none of the track from the set.  Also, not using the power supply/transformer or the power connecting clip from the set and see what happens. There is a real very far out and completely left wing possibility that as it is only your Hornby engines that are having this problem that the power draw they are putting on the transformer is more than the transformer can cope with. Other members here with more knowledge may know if there is a difference between the Bachmann and Hornby locos power requirements. When you say, all your Hornby engines are having the same problem. Just how many is all?.

What's the point of buying a 2nd loop of track? Only the Hornby locos have any problem, so either those locos are ALL faulty - which sounds rather unlikely, or something is wrong with the power clip or controller.

Don't Hornby supply 2 different types of power clip these days - one for DCC, the other for none DCC. Perhaps the wrong one got into the box? I see that RobinOfLoxley has suggested something similar.

 

A useful tool for Godfish94 to invest in, is a multimeter - a cheap one will do fine. A bit of guidance in it's usage from RMweb, will help to identify the issues, rather than endless guessing.

Edited January 15, 2023 by kevinlms
Wrong word

[RobinofLoxley]

10 hours ago, Godfish94 said:

I have video evidence of what I'm about to say, makes 0 sense to me. When I run a Bachmann 56xx on the loop it runs perfectly but all my Hornby locos cause the cut out, only tried the 56xx today I am baffled

 

Have you put the loco on a single piece of track as suggested yet? Bypassed the power clip? Any other suggestions to eliminate specific faults? Video not needed.

[John M Upton]

Instinct says it is the Hornby controller.  I looked it up and it is one of their standard train set type ones then quite frankly they are rubbish, fit only for the bin.  Have found in the past that their tend to cut out with some more current hungry modern locos.

 

Bin it and get something decent.

[longchap]

There are a lot of suggestions above, some which seem to defy the logic of reducing the many variables to just one. Effective fault diagnosis depends on eliminating potential faults one at a time. Only one post above has shown you how to determine if the power car works or not. So use a good 9v square battery against the wheels (try several wheel sets in case only some are designed to pick up power) and that will determine if the loco works or not. First variable removed!

 

If it does, sit the loco on a single piece of straight track, connected to the controller and add power. If it runs, the loco, power clip and controller are all okay, if it doesn't, then either the clip or the controller are faulty, so test both individually and this is where a multimeter is useful.

 

Effective fault finding works best by having as few variables in the system to begin with, then including others in the process. Logic and a methodical attitude are your best friends.

 

Don't despair and if you can't find the problem, then you can take the set back for a refund.

 

Bon Courage!

 

 

PS All the above assumes of course that there are no accidental short circuits created by any metal object lying across the track, such as a screwdriver, piece of track, hair grip, etc. It happens all the time, as most modellers know all too well!

Edited January 15, 2023 by longchap

[Brit70053]

Hi Godfish 94, You say you have borrowed locos from friends to try to pin down the fault, but are left with the puzzling situation where only the Bachmann loco will work and not cause the apparent short circuit.

      Just a suggestion, but would you be able to try your locos and HST Power car on one of your friends' layouts, particularly if they have a power unit/ controller other than the Hornby one which is in your set. If they will run ok with say a Gaugemaster, Bachmann or even another Hornby controller which is known to work ok  you could be confident that the Hornby controller from your set is the cause of your problems.

 

Good Luck,

 

Regards, John

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Instinct says it is the Hornby controller.  I looked it up and it is one of their standard train set type ones then quite frankly they are rubbish, fit only for the bin.  Have found in the past that their tend to cut out with some more current hungry modern locos.

 

Bin it and get something decent.

You would expect it to work to some degree, if Hornby are prepared to put it in the box, otherwise they would get heaps of complaints. Doesn't mean that particular example, doesn't have a fault.

But I do agree, entry level controllers tend to be low quality items and always have been.

[Godfish94]

12 hours ago, cypherman said:

OK, this is a strange one. Can I suggest that you lay a second basic loop of track using none of the track from the set.  Also, not using the power supply/transformer or the power connecting clip from the set and see what happens. There is a real very far out and completely left wing possibility that as it is only your Hornby engines that are having this problem that the power draw they are putting on the transformer is more than the transformer can cope with. Other members here with more knowledge may know if there is a difference between the Bachmann and Hornby locos power requirements. When you say, all your Hornby engines are having the same problem. Just how many is all?.

3, the hst (that came in the set) railroad 0-6-0 pannier, and an older 101 dmu. Turned the pannier and hst upside down and applied power to both and ran perfectly but when on track they cause the cut out. To a relatively new modler this is really confusing. I suspect its the controller/power supply so going to look at upgrading to a Hornby hm2000 or something else if there's better recommendations.