Condor—empty wagons?

[Wickham Green too]

53 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Containers of the type handled by the Condor were nothing new - introduced on the 1930s I believe. ...

To quote from Southern Wagons volume 4 - "Although credit for the railway container as we know it must go to the LMS, the type's origins go back much further  - to 1830 and the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, no less ...".

It could be that the LMS coined the term 'container' (?) - in earlier years they were known as 'lift vans'.

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

We're the similarly sized Insulated containers ever recorded on the Condor service?

I would have thought their loads would have warranted travel on fast service such as Condor, though perhaps the  routes were't appropriate to the source and destination of such traffic.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A lot of insulated containers travelled on services of their own such as the Holyhead meat trains, or in blocks on regular fast services.

[Steven B]

On 18/01/2023 at 13:09, cctransuk said:

Believe what you choose - the personal testimony and photographic evidence demonstrates that the Condor ran with all wagons loaded with containers; empty or full.

 

..... or do you not believe those of us who saw the real train?

 

I'm questioning BR's logistics as to how they managed to fill a train with equal numbers of type A and BD containers every time they ran the train. Photos and personal testimony have yet to answer the question!

 

I'm still sceptical that the train ran 100% full, 100% of the time for the period the train operated. I doubt anyone could unequivocally prove it did - the balance of probability means I still feel it very unlikely.

 

As the Condor was an express service, did it warrant express prices? Could BR's customers book containers specifically onto the train? If so, what happened when there were more containers than the train had capacity for? Did they get bumped onto a slower train or added to the next evening's train?

 

What happened if there was still space - were standard containers shifted at express speeds for no extra costs?

 

Lots of unknowns that can't be answered through personal recollections or photos.

 

Steven B.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Steven B

[Wickham Green too]

27 minutes ago, Steven B said:

I'm questioning BR's logistics as to how they managed to fill a train with equal numbers of type A and BD containers every time they ran the train. ... I'm still sceptical that the train ran 100% full, 100% of the time for the period the train operated. ...

As I said back at the start of this thread, the inclusion of empty wagons MIGHT have imposed an unacceptable speed limit on this express service - so it MIGHT have been the case that carrying a container full of air made sufficient difference to permit full speed operation.

[BernardTPM]

More info on a later service from Modern Railways March 1962:

A second "Condor" service was introduced in January between Birmingham Aston and Glasgow Gushetfaulds depots. Its consist differs from the Hendon-Gushetfaulds prototype in including in the fixed formation three MacGregor-Cormarain sliding roof wagons*, which are 'sold' to consignors interested in such a facility; recent despatches in these wagons have consisted of steel sheet. The remainder of the train..... is composed of flats with accomodation for 30 containers, of 700cu ft and 300cu ft capacity.** Charges are per container and include road collection and delivery. They are not fixed, as in the Hendon-Glasgow service, but are negotiated commercially with individual customers...

 

A special "Condor" freight section has been set up at Aston, with its own telephone number listed as "Scottish Condor Service" in the B.R. section of the telephone directory.

 

* shocroof A

** so 15 conflat wagons

 

Photo with the piece shows D5083 with a "Condor  Glasgow-Birmingham" headboard, though as it is said to be "ready to leave Gushetfailds depot" it is presumably Southbound. The shocroof A wagons are immediately behind the loco.

Edited January 19, 2023 by BernardTPM

[Fat Controller]

Just a thought; into the mid-1970s, many manufacturers charged a deposit on packaging, which would have to be returned somehow. The sums involved were often fairly significant; something like £15 for a small wooden crate, and over a hundred for a cable drum. At the time, I was being paid £1 per hour.

[BernardTPM]

Given BR were actually delivering and collecting their own containers at each end of the journey I would guess they would have quite tight control over their use or at least know where they were.

[Kirby Uncoupler]

I doubt the Condor service was often seen with empty flat wagons, though perhaps the odd part-loaded one may have been seen, where an unequal quota of long and short containers  were on the train that night, most likely a BD type container on a Conflat P, without it's A type partner? When there were even more A type to carry, I suppose they could load 2 x A type (balanced at each end), there would be space for 3 x A type, but were there sufficient chains and shackles carried, or could they just add spare shackles from the depot?

Another reason you'd be less likely to see empty wagons on the Condor services, is because these were individual wagons, so train lengths could be adjusted, but then again sufficient conflats and containers would have been required in London (Hendon/Kentish Town) or Glasgow, for the following day's requirements, it was probably a bit of a juggling act? Empty containers were no doubt added to the trains, to restore the stock balance at each end. At the London end, the LMR could also call on containers from other goods yards, for example from Broad Street, Somer's Town and Agar Grove. The later Freightliner services mostly used fixed 5-wagon units, and three or four of these would make a semi-permanent rake, so depending on demaind, you'd be far more likely to see half-empty rakes, due to the reduced flexibility, but it's probably more economical?

                                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Kirby Uncoupler
Add info

[Kirby Uncoupler]

At the London end of the MML, there was also the 1960s Tartan Arrow service (yet another dedicated freight initiative), based at Kentish Town west yard, which may have also been involved with the Condor service at some stage?When Hendon is quoted as the London departure point, do they really mean the north end of Cricklewood yard? Hendon station had it's own modest set of sidings, but they disappeared under the M1 extension to Brent Cross, in the 60s.    BK

Edited January 19, 2023 by Kirby Uncoupler
Add info

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

I'm questioning BR's logistics as to how they managed to fill a train with equal numbers of type A and BD containers every time they ran the train. Photos and personal testimony have yet to answer the question!

 

I'm still sceptical that the train ran 100% full, 100% of the time for the period the train operated. I doubt anyone could unequivocally prove it did - the balance of probability means I still feel it very unlikely.

 

As the Condor was an express service, did it warrant express prices? Could BR's customers book containers specifically onto the train? If so, what happened when there were more containers than the train had capacity for? Did they get bumped onto a slower train or added to the next evening's train?

 

What happened if there was still space - were standard containers shifted at express speeds for no extra costs?

 

Lots of unknowns that can't be answered through personal recollections or photos.

 

Steven B.

 

 

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested that the CONDOR ran with fully-loaded CONTAINERS on each trip - I have certainly not suggested that.

 

What I, and others, are saying is that, from our own experiences, and from available photographic evidence, the WAGONS always ran loaded with CONTAINERS.

 

What the container contained, or not, is anyone's guess in the absence of the relevant loading records.

 

The OP asked if he could prototypically run his CONDOR CONFLATs without containers; the answer is 'No' - in normal service, anyway.

 

The reason may have been to do with the stability of the empty wagons at speed - this would not surprise me at all, given that they were converted PLATE and BOLSTER wagons.

 

John Isherwood.

[BernardTPM]

They did have slightly upgraded suspension, with J hangers rather than plain spring mounts, but so did the Cemflos and they proved to be less than stable in service. Another possible advantage of filling the 'empty' spaces with empty containers would be a reduction in aerodynamic drag.

[markw]

On 19/01/2023 at 15:54, Kirby Uncoupler said:

I doubt the Condor service was often seen with empty flat wagons, though perhaps the odd part-loaded one may have been seen, where an unequal quota of long and short containers  were on the train that night, most likely a BD type container on a Conflat P, without it's A type partner? When there were even more A type to carry, I suppose they could load 2 x A type (balanced at each end), there would be space for 3 x A type, but were there sufficient chains and shackles carried, or could they just add spare shackles from the depot?

                                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

The conflat P had fixed corner pockets for one A and one BD container and eight fixed attachments for shackles, there is no safe way to carry a second or third A container. I don't think they would ever run with only one container as the axle loadings would be very uneven.

 

I think the wagons were run as a fixed set, once there were enough bookings to fill the train no more would be taken, it would then be up to the customer to decide whether to book for the following day or book a container for another service.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, markw said:

... it would then be up to the customer to decide whether to book for the following day or book a container for another service.

... probably 'phone up his mate with a lorry.

[Michael Hodgson]

Wouldn't there be a regular pattern for some customers, a standard regular booking suiting both the customer and the railway?

[Wickham Green too]

I think the operative word there is 'some' .......... some would have standard regular bookings which wouldn't change from year to year, some would change seasonally or monthly causing headaches for the railway - and some would change weekly or daily and probably wouldn't be involved with Condor at all.

[Kirby Uncoupler]

On 21/01/2023 at 17:17, markw said:

The conflat P had fixed corner pockets for one A and one BD container and eight fixed attachments for shackles, there is no safe way to carry a second or third A container. I don't think they would ever run with only one container as the axle loadings would be very uneven.

 

I think the wagons were run as a fixed set, once there were enough bookings to fill the train no more would be taken, it would then be up to the customer to decide whether to book for the following day or book a container for another service.

 

That sounds reasonable to me, so the fixed brackets on the Conflat P would only accept 1 x A and 1 x BD container, which would probably mean the train always ran with a full complement of containers to load the wagons evenly, even if some were empty? I can't believe the despatch office always got the balance of loaded container types the same every night, unless they held some back for the following night, or resorted to adding empties for completeness?  

                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

[markw]

3 hours ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

 

That sounds reasonable to me, so the fixed brackets on the Conflat P would only accept 1 x A and 1 x BD container, which would probably mean the train always ran with a full complement of containers to load the wagons evenly, even if some were empty? I can't believe the despatch office always got the balance of loaded container types the same every night, unless they held some back for the following night, or resorted to adding empties for completeness?  

                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

Condor was a premium overnight service, I don't think any containers would be held back, an empty container would only be sent to the customer after they had booked a slot on the train.