Condor—empty wagons?

[Crepello]

I’ve invested in a train of the Rapido N-gauge Conflat Ps.

It seems a pity to run it with all the wagons fully loaded, thereby hiding the superb detail of the Conflat chassis underneath.

I’d like to know if the wagons ran partially or totally empty within the train.

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

I wonder if there might have been a restricting speed limit when empty ?

[cctransuk]

35 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I wonder if there might have been a restricting speed limit when empty ?

 

Given that the CONDOR was a container train, an empty train would have been indistinguishable from a full train - the wagons would always be carrying containers.

 

That said, I am sure that the aim would have been to balance up and down loadings, as far as was possible.

 

Having seen (and heard - loudly) both up and down CONDORs, at speed behind a couple of Co-Bos, I don't recall any empty CONFLATs.

 

CJI.

[Wickham Green too]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Given that the CONDOR was a container train, an empty train would have been indistinguishable from a full train - the wagons would always be carrying containers. ...

I'm not sure I see the logic of that - today's container trains normally have some spaces available.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Just now, Wickham Green too said:

I'm not sure I see the logic of that - today's container trains normally have some spaces available.

 

Different times.

The ConDor train only ran between 2 points and containers had to be available for traffic in either direction, empty or loaded, and were a captive market and route.

Current containers go all over the place, both by rail and road, and are a kind of common user, and also, presumably operators don't want to be dragging surplus weight around unnecessarily.

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

36 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm not sure I see the logic of that - today's container trains normally have some spaces available.

 

Nonetheless, that was not the case at the time of the CONDOR - a fixed rake of containers went N-S and S-N, with full containers being swapped for empty ones as traffic presented.

 

CJI.

 

[ardbealach]

I used to see the southbound Condor most evenings when it headed south from Glasgow - and there was never any empty flat wagons with no containers in the consist - if I can use an Americanism. (Alisdair)  

[Wickham Green too]

Sounds like Rapido's superb chassis detailing has been wasted !

[D7666]

11 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Different times.

The ConDor train only ran between 2 points and containers had to be available for traffic in either direction, empty or loaded, and were a captive market and route.

Current containers go all over the place, both by rail and road, and are a kind of common user, and also, presumably operators don't want to be dragging surplus weight around unnecessarily.

 

Mike.

THere is not a lot of logic there.

 

If the container is being hauled from London to Glasgow or v.v. EMPTY it is precisely NOT available for traffic _ because it can not be with a customer being loaded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 minutes ago, D7666 said:

THere is not a lot of logic there.

 

If the container is being hauled from London to Glasgow or v.v. EMPTY it is precisely NOT available for traffic _ because it can not be with a customer being loaded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're missing the point, it was a captive audience traffic, there were spare containers, not just the ones on the train, so they were the ones out being loaded. The empties had to be ferried backwards and forwards to create spares for off site loading.

 

Mike.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It seems quite difficult finding photos of the Condor, not surprising as it spent most of its time on the running lines in the dark.

Sliding off topic, there was a second Condor service which ran from Aston Windsor Street Goods to Glasgow in the mid 1960s. That was hauled by a Sulzer Type 2 and supposedly limited to 45 wagons although it sometimes took more and was double headed then. It used Conflat A wagons and carried other traffic such as container tanks and steel coil.

Edited January 18, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[Wheatley]

6 hours ago, D7666 said:

THere is not a lot of logic there.

 

If the container is being hauled from London to Glasgow or v.v. EMPTY it is precisely NOT available for traffic _ because it can not be with a customer being loaded.

 

 

Conversely it can't be with the customer to be loaded if it's  sitting around at the other end waiting for a return load. 

 

Difference between moving containers owned by multiple third parties  which are part of a much larger global system with multiple points of entry, and containers which are part of a captive system which owns all the assets. If you want empty containers  at X you have to take them there.  

 

Edit - Cobblers, see below. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Wheatley

[ardbealach]

The Condor was introduced and running a regular service in the days before intermodals were on the scene.   

Maybe the Condor containers which could not be loaded one night went the next. So always a full train in a fixed rake.

And there may have been empty ones travelling as the demand for containers perhaps varied at each end.

 

Do we know what was carried in the containers and who were the customers?  Was it regulars who used it and therefore the loadings would have generally been known in advance? (Alisdair)

 

 

[Peter Eaton]

Where not the containers ''standard'' BR types so there would be a generous supply of these at the 2 depots for supply & demand ? Thus allowing running a full train at all times for the fast timing expected of this service,

Peter   

(awaiting the announcement of the 00 wagons!)

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Aston - Glasgow was probably the forerunner of the Speedlink brand. There were at least two types of traffic which weren't in Type A or B containers

 

8 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Sliding off topic, there was a second Condor service which ran from Aston Windsor Street Goods to Glasgow ........

It used Conflat A wagons and carried other traffic such as container tanks and steel coil.

 

The steel coil was loaded in Diagram 1/057 Shocroof A opens with roller roof. Don Rowland has a picture in 'The First Half Million' of one with Condor branding.

I think the tanks were on a Conflat LS Diagram 1/078 or similar. Perhaps @hmrspaul has something on them.

 

John Turner has a picture of the train at Aston, although the original caption is wrong

https://flic.kr/p/4GCZX3

 

 

 

[ardbealach]

I go along with Peter E's thoughts on the type of containers used and the demand from customers of a guaranteed service which would have achieved the full train each night.  (Alisdair) 

[Michael Hodgson]

53 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

You're missing the point, it was a captive audience traffic, there were spare containers, not just the ones on the train, so they were the ones out being loaded. The empties had to be ferried backwards and forwards to create spares for off site loading.

 

Mike.

Would empty containers not be balanced North/South using lower priority trains?

 

As I understood it the objective of the Condor was rapid delivery of goods, for just in time delivery etc and aiming to reduce loss of traffic to road, whereas traditional freight traffics such as bulk minerals and empty wagons just needed to be moved as and when they could efficiently be pathed.  Similarly if there was a need for the conflats to moved empty, surely that would simply be handled along with other general goods traffic, leaving the Condor free to move the urgent stuff?

 

I assume it would have run under bell code 3-1-1 (Express freight etc, at least 90% fitted).  The 3-2-5 code for container traffic was described as "Freightliner" which was a later concept and would have had a higher permitted speed than 4-wheel conflats.

 

If the Condor could run with a fixed rake and known load, its timekeeping should have been much better than ad hoc formations of traditional goods services that ran as required.

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The Aston - Glasgow was probably the forerunner of the Speedlink brand. There were at least two types of traffic which weren't in Type A or B containers

 

 

The steel coil was loaded in Diagram 1/057 Shocroof A opens with roller roof. Don Rowland has a picture in 'The First Half Million' of one with Condor branding.

I think the tanks were on a Conflat LS Diagram 1/078 or similar. Perhaps @hmrspaul has something on them.

 

John Turner has a picture of the train at Aston, although the original caption is wrong

https://flic.kr/p/4GCZX3

 

 

 

Weren't the tank containers carrying corn starch for Bird's Custard factory in Birmingham? There are photos in either 'Wagons of the Early British Railways Period' or 'Wagons of the middle British Railways Period' . Both volumes are by David Larkin.

[BernardTPM]

From British Railways LMR Freight Handbook (1964):

1. London/Glasgow "Condor"

"Condor" express freight services between London and Glasgow.... ensure that containers collected from premises.... one afternoon are delivered in any part of London or Glasgow next morning having travelled through the night at express train speed.

...

The total rates per container.... include collection and delivery within defined limits.

 

2. Birmingham/Glasgow "Condor"

A "Condor" service also runs each night, Mondays to Fridays in both directions between Birmingham and Glasgow.

Charges are per container and competitive rates which are all-inclusive, door-to-door, will be quoted on application.

....

 

By this date there was also a "Speedfreight" service between London and Manchester using the new alloy "Speedfreight" containers, designed to suit standard eight 48" x 40" pallets.

 

 

[Steven B]

I find it hard to believe that BR managed equal numbers of loaded Type A and BD containers every night, that just happened to fill the wagons available for each train.

 

Would BR have used the service to send back empties if loading was light, or held some back for the next day's train if there were too many?

 

Steven B.

[cctransuk]

24 minutes ago, Steven B said:

I find it hard to believe that BR managed equal numbers of loaded Type A and BD containers every night, that just happened to fill the wagons available for each train.

 

Would BR have used the service to send back empties if loading was light, or held some back for the next day's train if there were too many?

 

Steven B.

 

Believe what you choose - the personal testimony and photographic evidence demonstrates that the Condor ran with all wagons loaded with containers; empty or full.

 

..... or do you not believe those of us who saw the real train?

 

CJI.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

I find it hard to believe that BR managed equal numbers of loaded Type A and BD containers every night, that just happened to fill the wagons available for each train.

 

Would BR have used the service to send back empties if loading was light, or held some back for the next day's train if there were too many?

 

Steven B.

 

As they were a standard BR container, not an unusual Condor only type, I reckon that there would have been enough in the area at each end to satisfy requirements, although no doubt the Scammels might have taken a circuitous route between yard and customer to collect an empty one.

 

Mike.

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Would empty containers not be balanced North/South using lower priority trains?

Good point. Oops ! 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Wheatley

[Tom Burnham]

Containers of the type handled by the Condor were nothing new - introduced on the 1930s I believe. So there would surely have been a large pool of them around?

[BernardTPM]

And large numbers built throught the 1950s into the early 1960s. After that came the Speedfreight and then Liner train containers before the ISO types took over.

We're the similarly sized Insulated containers ever recorded on the Condor service?