Small Metro builds 2023

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

I have started work on the chassis for my Metro tank... Its gone together surprisingly well, although I have a few issues.

 

The instructions say to open out the bearing holes to 36.6mm... In the Comet guide they say to use a 30-40mm 5 sided broach, so that should have been fine.

 

However, the bearings are more like 42mm so I could have done with an extra broach :-(

 

The bearings are now fitted, but I obviously have an issue as one set of wheels are very tight. 

 

I have not soldered the bearings in yet, so I will look at it tomorrow.

 

The wheels were very easy to fit - although I don't know how I am going to tackle the non-driving leading wheel as it has a pin point axle, yet bearings are not provided for the axle fittings in the frame.

 

My attention then turned onto the gear box and that certainly was very fiddly. Its folded up ok and has been soldered as per the instructions.

 

However the first gear sits on a rod which is a very tight compression fit. Presumably it's supposed to be, but I now can't get the gear onto the rod without dismantling everything and soldering it back together. I am then concerned that I might melt the gearwheel!

 

Starting out:

 

The instructions say items A9;A10;A11 (optional) are to do with the brake gear and can be fitted to the frame stretcher B2 - But its not obvious where they get fixed:

 

 

Now I have looked at it again, it looks like they go behind the brake marked as A14 - I'll look at that tomorrow.

 

The top hat bearing and the too small hole!

 

 

In opening out the hole - following the instructions in Iain Rice book - I set them over a hole drilled into a piece of Ply in order to avoid distorting the frames.

 

The frames being set out with the first two frame stretchers soldered in. I am also using the screw in spacer that comes with the kit (far right) and two axle spacers from Comet models.

 

 

Its the left hand wheel in this photo that is a bit tight:

 

 

I have also placed it under the loco, although it will need a bit of filing etc. to get it to fit properly.

 

To be continued.

 

 

 

Neal, as I understand it the front small wheel axle simple runs directly in the frames with no bearings. And if you go compensated it has just the single centre line bearing with slots in the frames. I assume the logic is it carries no weight. I plan to go compensated but also to add a pair of wire springs running on the wheel tops to carry some of the load and also to give an extra pickup.

Also when you say tight is it the axle in the bearing or the bearing in the frame. I guess being tight in the frame does not matter if you are not doing a compensated chassis?

regards

Andy

ps I assume you don’t mean 42mm but 4.2mm?

Edited February 13, 2023 by Andy Keane

[longchap]

3 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

I have started work on the chassis for my Metro tank... Its gone together surprisingly well, although I have a few issues.

 

The instructions say to open out the bearing holes to 36.6mm... In the Comet guide they say to use a 30-40mm 5 sided broach, so that should have been fine.

 

However, the bearings are more like 42mm so I could have done with an extra broach :-(

 

The bearings are now fitted, but I obviously have an issue as one set of wheels are very tight. 

 

I have not soldered the bearings in yet, so I will look at it tomorrow.

 

The wheels were very easy to fit - although I don't know how I am going to tackle the non-driving leading wheel as it has a pin point axle, yet bearings are not provided for the axle fittings in the frame.

 

My attention then turned onto the gear box and that certainly was very fiddly. Its folded up ok and has been soldered as per the instructions.

 

However the first gear sits on a rod which is a very tight compression fit. Presumably it's supposed to be, but I now can't get the gear onto the rod without dismantling everything and soldering it back together. I am then concerned that I might melt the gearwheel!

 

Starting out:

 

The instructions say items A9;A10;A11 (optional) are to do with the brake gear and can be fitted to the frame stretcher B2 - But its not obvious where they get fixed:

 

 

Now I have looked at it again, it looks like they go behind the brake marked as A14 - I'll look at that tomorrow.

 

The top hat bearing and the too small hole!

 

 

In opening out the hole - following the instructions in Iain Rice book - I set them over a hole drilled into a piece of Ply in order to avoid distorting the frames.

 

The frames being set out with the first two frame stretchers soldered in. I am also using the screw in spacer that comes with the kit (far right) and two axle spacers from Comet models.

 

 

Its the left hand wheel in this photo that is a bit tight:

 

 

I have also placed it under the loco, although it will need a bit of filing etc. to get it to fit properly.

 

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

Congratulations on making a start Neal and I suppose there will always be issues until we become experts. A 3.66mm bearing hole size sounds very precise. I think simply need to open them up a little at a time until the bearings just fit in with no slop, hence the 3 to 4mm tapered broach. After they are soldered into place, a 1/8th inch reamer can be used to ease the bearing holes to avoid binding. Perhaps this is all you need do with that one tight wheel?

 

My leading wheelset has a squared ended axle and @Andy Keane says, just sits in the frames.

 

Maybe a tad late know, but Tom, the Loco Builder, has a video on building a High Level Kits gearbox:

 

 

I also looked at those brake gear parts and realised that one needs a great more technical know-how than the average railway modeller to know where to stick them! Hopefully someone can help.

 

Good luck with the rest of the build. When will you paint the chassis?

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by longchap

[Neal Ball]

Thanks both for the comments:

 

51 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Neal, as I understand it the front small wheel axle simple runs directly in the frames with no bearings. And if you go compensated it has just the single centre line bearing with slots in the frames. I assume the logic is it carries no weight. I plan to go compensated but also to add a pair of wire springs running on the wheel tops to carry some of the load and also to give an extra pickup.

Also when you say tight is it the axle in the bearing or the bearing in the frame. I guess being tight in the frame does not matter if you are not doing a compensated chassis?

regards

Andy

ps I assume you don’t mean 42mm but 4.2mm?

 

Thanks Andy - yes 4.2mm

 

Interesting about the wheel and to be honest that makes sense, but adding the wire spring will guide it through points better.

 

I wonder if a power pick-up spring will have the same effect...

 

23 minutes ago, longchap said:

 

Congratulations on making a start Neal and I suppose there will always be issues until we become experts. A 3.66mm bearing hole size sounds very precise. I think simply need to open them up a little at a time until the bearings just fit in with no slop, hence the 3 to 4mm tapered broach. After they are soldered into place, a 1/8th inch reamer can be used to ease the bearing holes to avoid binding. Perhaps this is all you need do with that one tight wheel?

 

My leading wheelset has a squared ended axle and @Andy Keane says, just sits in the frames.

 

Maybe a tad late know, but Tom, the Loco Builder, has a video n building a High Level Kits gearbox:

 

 

I also looked at those brake gear parts and realised that one needs a great more technical know-how than the average railway modeller to know where to stick them! Hopefully someone can help.

 

Good luck with the rest of the build. When will you paint the chassis?

 

 

Thanks Bill, I will take a look at the video.

 

Re: The inside brake details - I wonder if it would actually be seen...

 

I'm hoping to spray the frames soon.... although it's a bit too cold in the railway room at the moment. I might have to bring everything upstairs.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Neal Ball
pick-up spring

[longchap]

3 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Re: The inside brake details - I wonder if it would actually be seen...

 

Almost hardly ever, if at all !

 

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

I have started work on the chassis for my Metro tank... Its gone together surprisingly well, although I have a few issues.

 

The instructions say to open out the bearing holes to 36.6mm... In the Comet guide they say to use a 30-40mm 5 sided broach, so that should have been fine.

 

However, the bearings are more like 42mm so I could have done with an extra broach :-(

 

The bearings are now fitted, but I obviously have an issue as one set of wheels are very tight. 

 

I have not soldered the bearings in yet, so I will look at it tomorrow.

 

The wheels were very easy to fit - although I don't know how I am going to tackle the non-driving leading wheel as it has a pin point axle, yet bearings are not provided for the axle fittings in the frame.

 

My attention then turned onto the gear box and that certainly was very fiddly. Its folded up ok and has been soldered as per the instructions.

 

However the first gear sits on a rod which is a very tight compression fit. Presumably it's supposed to be, but I now can't get the gear onto the rod without dismantling everything and soldering it back together. I am then concerned that I might melt the gearwheel!

 

Starting out:

 

The instructions say items A9;A10;A11 (optional) are to do with the brake gear and can be fitted to the frame stretcher B2 - But its not obvious where they get fixed:

 

 

Now I have looked at it again, it looks like they go behind the brake marked as A14 - I'll look at that tomorrow.

 

The top hat bearing and the too small hole!

 

 

In opening out the hole - following the instructions in Iain Rice book - I set them over a hole drilled into a piece of Ply in order to avoid distorting the frames.

 

The frames being set out with the first two frame stretchers soldered in. I am also using the screw in spacer that comes with the kit (far right) and two axle spacers from Comet models.

 

 

Its the left hand wheel in this photo that is a bit tight:

 

 

I have also placed it under the loco, although it will need a bit of filing etc. to get it to fit properly.

 

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

Neil

 

The first thoughts is that whilst the frames may be square using the Comet frame assembly jig, the bearings may not be once the jigs are removed, especially if they are not soldered in place.

 

Its has always been advised to use Hornblock alignment jigs ( I think they should be renamed to bearing and hornblock jigs) The bearings need to be set into the frames to match the coupling rods and align each other

Another thing I find is that some bearings are too long, which will amplify any slight misalignment. I like to fit short ones or file down longer ones

Thirdly I use a parallel reamer to ensure the diameter of the bearings are correct and you can ream through both bearings at the same time to ensure the holes are parallell to each other

 

 

To begin with the hornblock jigs and reamer are inexpensive but in my opinion well worth the investment

 

 

These are very inexpensive, but will align the bearings in the chassis with both each other and the coupling rods

 

 

If you intend to build a few chassis these Poppy's chassis building jigs are very well thought of and reasonably priced

 

 

A lot more expensive but a very well engineered piece of kit makes life a lot easier, look for them second hand mine cost me £50. It was incomplete but now it does 4mm & 7mm chassis

 

 

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Neil

 

The first thoughts is that whilst the frames may be square using the Comet frame assembly jig, the bearings may not be once the jigs are removed, especially if they are not soldered in place.

 

Its has always been advised to use Hornblock alignment jigs ( I think they should be renamed to bearing and hornblock jigs) The bearings need to be set into the frames to match the coupling rods and align each other

Another thing I find is that some bearings are too long, which will amplify any slight misalignment. I like to fit short ones or file down longer ones

Thirdly I use a parallel reamer to ensure the diameter of the bearings are correct and you can ream through both bearings at the same time to ensure the holes are parallell to each other

 

 

To begin with the hornblock jigs and reamer are inexpensive but in my opinion well worth the investment

 

 

These are very inexpensive, but will align the bearings in the chassis with both each other and the coupling rods

 

 

If you intend to build a few chassis these Poppy's chassis building jigs are very well thought of and reasonably priced

 

 

A lot more expensive but a very well engineered piece of kit makes life a lot easier, look for them second hand mine cost me £50. It was incomplete but now it does 4mm & 7mm chassis

 

 

 

I'm glad you brought this up @hayfield, from an engineering point of view the bearings need to be fitted to the chassis and all line bored/ reamed at ninety degrees to the chassis to have much hope of running without binding.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, longchap said:

I also looked at those brake gear parts and realised that one needs a great more technical know-how than the average railway modeller to know where to stick them! Hopefully someone can help.

Sometimes I fit them, sometimes I don't.

They can actually get it the way of the pick ups which need to be very carefully fitted, else they short to the brake gear.

On my 43XX Comet chassis, I used the Gibson plunger pickups, which work well and I may go that route again, if needed.

[melmerby]

One 0-6-0 chassis I did had the misfortune to have coupling rod and wheels centres slightly different. It could be seen pre bearing fitting.

No matter what reaming you do, they wouldn't have lined up.

 

What I did was make a jig out of brass that matched the coupling rod centres, I soldered one axle's bearings into the frames and horizontally elongated the holes for the other two.

I then. using the jig, fitted all three axles with the two sets of bearings loose in the frame. I soldered in each bearing in turn.

Once done only minor broaching was needed for a free running chassis.

Edited February 13, 2023 by melmerby

[Neal Ball]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

One 0-6-0 chassis I did had the misfortune to have coupling rod and wheels centres slightly different. It could be seen pre bearing fitting.

No matter what reaming you do, they wouldn't have lined up.

 

What I did was make a jig out of brass that matched the coupling rod centres, I soldered one axle's bearings into the frames and horizontally elongated the holes for the other two.

I then. using the jig, fitted all three axles with the two sets of bearings loose in the frame. I soldered in each bearing in turn.

Once done only minor broaching was needed for a free running chassis.

Building the loco chassis is not something I have done before. To then add such complications is a whole different ball game.

 

Hopefully it will all go together and be fine.

 

Thanks also about the brake gear bits. I won’t bother with them!

[Neal Ball]

11 hours ago, longchap said:

 

Congratulations on making a start Neal and I suppose there will always be issues until we become experts. A 3.66mm bearing hole size sounds very precise. I think simply need to open them up a little at a time until the bearings just fit in with no slop, hence the 3 to 4mm tapered broach. After they are soldered into place, a 1/8th inch reamer can be used to ease the bearing holes to avoid binding. Perhaps this is all you need do with that one tight wheel?

 

My leading wheelset has a squared ended axle and @Andy Keane says, just sits in the frames.

 

Maybe a tad late know, but Tom, the Loco Builder, has a video on building a High Level Kits gearbox:

 

 

I also looked at those brake gear parts and realised that one needs a great more technical know-how than the average railway modeller to know where to stick them! Hopefully someone can help.

 

Good luck with the rest of the build. When will you paint the chassis?

 

Thanks again for the video link Bill. 
 

He does say you need about 4 pairs of hands to do it!

 

The particular rod I am talking about, he reamed first…. So now that the spacer is very tight on the rod, I reckon I will have to dismantle it all and gently solder it back together. If I’m careful, hopefully it will be ok.

 

tbc.

[Neal Ball]

11 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Neil

 

The first thoughts is that whilst the frames may be square using the Comet frame assembly jig, the bearings may not be once the jigs are removed, especially if they are not soldered in place.

 

Its has always been advised to use Hornblock alignment jigs ( I think they should be renamed to bearing and hornblock jigs) The bearings need to be set into the frames to match the coupling rods and align each other

Another thing I find is that some bearings are too long, which will amplify any slight misalignment. I like to fit short ones or file down longer ones

Thirdly I use a parallel reamer to ensure the diameter of the bearings are correct and you can ream through both bearings at the same time to ensure the holes are parallell to each other

 

 

To begin with the hornblock jigs and reamer are inexpensive but in my opinion well worth the investment

 

 

These are very inexpensive, but will align the bearings in the chassis with both each other and the coupling rods

 

 

If you intend to build a few chassis these Poppy's chassis building jigs are very well thought of and reasonably priced

 

 

A lot more expensive but a very well engineered piece of kit makes life a lot easier, look for them second hand mine cost me £50. It was incomplete but now it does 4mm & 7mm chassis

 

 

Thank you for this. 
 

That’s quite an impressive set of equipment…. If I attempt a second loco, I will do it differently! This is the first time I have attempted such a kit.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

Thank you for this. 
 

That’s quite an impressive set of equipment…. If I attempt a second loco, I will do it differently! This is the first time I have attempted such a kit.

 

Neal

 

Keep the brake gear as you may wish to retro fit them at a later date, if nothing else do get a set of hornblock alignment guides think they are about £5 as every chassis needs its bearings matched to the coupling rods, and as I said sometimes shortening the axle bearings length reduces friction on the axles

 

Good luck on the build, its looking very good

[longchap]

10 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Building the loco chassis is not something I have done before. To then add such complications is a whole different ball game.

 

Hopefully it will all go together and be fine.

 

Thanks also about the brake gear bits. I won’t bother with them!

 

That's the thing with this hobby, it's truly a multi-faceted one were it comes to learning new skills and the more you get into it, the more it seems that you have to learn, hopefully well and so the rewards continue to build.

 

Please don't be disheartened Neal, as we all experience setbacks to some degree and you are doing it the hard way, as a solo modeller without the benefit of an experienced fellow at your side.  Fortunately, we have this rewarding site and John, @hayfield, has identified the solution to get the frames, bearings and coupling rods in alignment with the use of bearing/hornblock guides with tapered ends to fit the coupling rods over.

 

The additional use of a chassis jig, such as a Poppy Woodtech loco box gives you extra long hornblock rods as well as the chassis being locked level in the jig for hands free access with the soldering iron for securing spacers, bearings, hornblocks, etc http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk/tools.html and I'm looking forward to using my 6 coupled version soon.

 

Hope you can source a 1/8" straight reamer (I think the Metro axles are 1/8"), as I had the last one in the shop a couple of years ago.

 

Onwards and upwards, no regrets, no surrender !

 

Bill

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by longchap
tippos

[Neal Ball]

5 minutes ago, longchap said:

 

That's the thing with this hobby, it's truly a multi-faceted one were it comes to learning new skills and the more you get into it, the more it seems that you have to learn, hopefully well and so the rewards continue to build.

 

Please don't be disheartended Neal, as we all experience setbacks to some degree and you are doing it the hard way, as a solo modeller without the benefit of an experienced fellow at your side.  Fortunately, we have this rewarding site and John, @hayfield, has identified the solution to get the frames, bearings and coupling rods in alignment with the use of bearning/hornblock guides with tapered ends to fit the coupling rods over.

 

The additional use of a chassis jig, such as a Poppy Woodtech loco box gives you extra long hornblock rods as well as the the chassis being locked level in the jig for hands free access with the soldering iron for securing spacers, bearings, hornblocks, etc http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk/tools.html and I'm looking forward to using my 6 coupled version soon.

 

Hope you can source a 1/8" straight reamer (I think the Metro axles are 1/8"), as I had the last one in the shop a couple of years ago.

 

Onwards and upwards, no regrets, no surrender !

 

Bill

 

 

Thanks for this Bill.

 

No progress on the Metro today…. I did a sub 2hour half marathon instead 🏃‍♂️🏃‍♂️😎😎

 

Normal service resumes tomorrow.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

sometimes shortening the axle bearings length reduces friction on the axles

It also gives more room in the frames for the gearbox (depending on make)

High Level are normally narrow enough to fit anyway (ones I bought at least)

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Thank you for this. 
 

That’s quite an impressive set of equipment…. If I attempt a second loco, I will do it differently! This is the first time I have attempted such a kit.

 

 

Neal the first etched chassis I built (Perseverance 0-4-2T compensated) I built on a flat piece of glass using the Hornblock alignment jigs, as we have said also work equally well with bearings as these must be set square with each other in the chassis, whilst matching the coupling rods

 

Cheap parallel reamers available on Amazon. Phil is very helpful at Hobby Holidays for bits of metal etc

[Andy Keane]

I am hoping that on the Missenden course between us all we will have a wide selection of tools and jigs to try out and so see what suits each of us.

On the last course I did on signal building, one of the other chaps had a Proxxon TBM220 drill which I found really useful for running drill bits below 1mm in diameter without breakage.

So when one came up on eBay as a repair / spares item I grabbed it. It turned out to just need a new motor bearing for £1.50 so it is now up and running and I shall bring it along.

Andy

[Siberian Snooper]

Sorry to be a little late to this, when I erected my frames a few weeks ago and I found that there were no bearings for the leading carrier wheels, when I placed my order with Colin ar Alan Gibson, for the wheels I also added top hat bearings to suit the carriers axle, hopefully they will be on the mat when I eventually get back home.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

35 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Sorry to be a little late to this, when I erected my frames a few weeks ago and I found that there were no bearings for the leading carrier wheels, when I placed my order with Colin ar Alan Gibson, for the wheels I also added top hat bearings to suit the carriers axle, hopefully they will be on the mat when I eventually get back home.

 

 

As noted above we think leading wheel axle is meant to just run directly in the frames, or if compensated, just in the central longitudinal part that has to be added.

[longchap]

In reviewing my notes for Missenden, I came across the course joining notes for a chassis building event at Pendon in 2021, led by Tim Shackleton. His very first words of the briefing reflect the wisdom shown here by other experienced chassis builders and is worth repeating until we students graduate and naturally take such matters in our stride:

 

“The initial stages of building a locomotive chassis are the critical ones. If key components such as frames, coupling rods, axles and wheels aren’t perfectly aligned, then no amount of fiddling will ever put them right.”

 

@Barclay and @hayfield have further identified the right tools to be used, so the rest of us can now see if it all makes sense.

 

Good idea from @Andy Keane regarding tools. I’ll be bringing my wheel press and puller and also the chassis jig by Poppy's Woodtech and will also put my riveting press in the car as well, should anyone like to try it.

 

It should be an interesting weekend.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by longchap

[hayfield]

43 minutes ago, longchap said:

In reviewing my notes for Missenden, I came across the course joining notes for a chassis building event at Pendon in 2020, led by Tim Shackleton. His very first words of the briefing reflect the wisdom shown here by other experienced chassis builders and is worth repeating until we students graduate and naturally take such matters in our stride:

 

“The initial stages of building a locomotive chassis are the critical ones. If key components such as frames, coupling rods, axles and wheels aren’t perfectly aligned, then no amount of fiddling will ever put them right.”

 

@Barclay and @hayfield have further identified the right tools to be used, so the rest of can now see if it all makes sense.

 

Good idea from @Andy Keane regarding tools. I’ll be bringing my wheel press and puller and also the chassis jig by Poppy's Woodtech and will lso put my riveting press in the car as well, should anyone like to try it.

 

It should be an interesting weekend.

 

 

 

 

Wise words you have written

 

Firstly you don't have to own every tool and jig from the start. However a few basics are required

 

Don't be put off by those of us who have built up our own collection over 30+ years

 

Secondly whilst at the moment I am not a member of a club, I have in the past found it invaluable being a club member, also you may well be able to use others tools/jigs and or be shown how to use them.

 

In the past it was a place where you were taught modelling techniques, this to somewhat has been replaced by online  forums and videos. but in many cases nothing beats face to face interaction  

[melmerby]

This is how I have done the trailing wheels on my U1 build and how I will do the leading wheels on the Metro.

The axle holes are elongated and allow about 0.5mm down and 1.0mm up movement over the the centreline, with a

phospor bronze wire for springing.

[Neal Ball]

Today has seen quite a bit of work on the loco and I am pleased to say it has come together very well.

 

I now have a running chassis and motor / gearbox.

 

The body needed a bit of fettling to get the wheels to sit properly and rotate - the red marks under the cab shew the area that needed to be cut out.

 

 

The chassis and body of the (almost completed) loco standing at the Outer Home at henley-on-Thames.

 

 

I have also put together a short video:

 

 

To be continued....

[longchap]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

This is how I have done the trailing wheels on my U1 build and how I will do the leading wheels on the Metro.

The axle holes are elongated and allow about 0.5mm down and 1.0mm up movement over the the centreline, with a

phospor bronze wire for springing.

 

Thanks for posting this Keith, as I also intend to use this method for the same two locos.

 

Bill

[longchap]

59 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Today has seen quite a bit of work on the loco and I am pleased to say it has come together very well.

 

I now have a running chassis and motor / gearbox.

 

The body needed a bit of fettling to get the wheels to sit properly and rotate - the red marks under the cab shew the area that needed to be cut out.

 

 

The chassis and body of the (almost completed) loco standing at the Outer Home at henley-on-Thames.

 

 

I have also put together a short video:

 

 

To be continued....

 

The body shell already looks so much better without that horrible paint job, hopefully soon to be wearing some fresh primer.

 

Chassis is also getting there, just the rods to sort. Have you laminated the rods together yet? Some people advocate they are best sweated together after being tinned. I'll wait and see what the Missenden tutors favour, although will probably open out the holes to suit the crankpin bosses.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by longchap
What ???