Peco TT:120 7 Plank Open Wagons

[J-Lewis]

Not sure I’m convinced Phil.  I mean sure Hornby Tt track makes it easier for you to run your stock, but you could just as easily have run your Triang stock on any of the other existing track brands from Europe over the past couple of decades?

 

The 3mm is old, it’s outdated and now there is a super detailed, DCC compatible true scale alternative in the new TT120.  I don’t see how 3mm keeps going at this point.  It’s stuck in the past, and although you and I might love the charm of old Triang models I don’t think they can increase in interest outside their currently shrinking demographic.  We shall see.

[Phil Parker]

39 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

Not sure I’m convinced Phil.  I mean sure Hornby Tt track makes it easier for you to run your stock, but you could just as easily have run your Triang stock on any of the other existing track brands from Europe over the past couple of decades?

 

The 3mm is old, it’s outdated and now there is a super detailed, DCC compatible true scale alternative in the new TT120.  I don’t see how 3mm keeps going at this point.  It’s stuck in the past, and although you and I might love the charm of old Triang models I don’t think they can increase in interest outside their currently shrinking demographic.  We shall see.

 

For a start, there is a collectors market who either want to collect, or just run trains. It might be outdated, but that is the charm. Hornby Dublo collectors still have shows, and always attract a crowd around layouts at exhibitions.

 

In the long term, 3mm scale is different from TT:120 and it's the former that Society mainly supports, it's a lot more than just old TT. There's far more stock available in kit form than Hornby will produce for decades. It's a lovely scale to build in too.

 

 

I built this over 20 years ago using etched kits for the locos, and Parkside kits for the rolling stock. The track gauge is 14.2mm, but you can also work in 12mm, or 13.5. In 4mm terms, this is P4, OO or EM.  I'd expect that 3mm scale will carry along appealing to kitbuilders, in the same way that S gauge has, but with bigger numbers having a go. After all, EM and P4 are still going, even with the massive amount of OO RTR. The advantage, for anyone who wants to exhibit widely, is that 3mm has long been unusual, and exhibition managers like to tick all the scale boxes. Me, I'd have a go at S scale if I had the time and could deal with imperial measurements - but then I'm weird like that.

 

My earlier point though, was that anyone ignoring the 3mm Society and buying Tri-ang on the open market, is paying much more than they need to.

[frobisher]

3 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

On the contrary, TT120 now means those of us with extensive Triang TT collections (inherited from my late Grandpa in my case) are finally able to run them easily, as we can use the Hornby track etc (and yes, despite what Hornby say, it is compatible with only minor tweaking).

Now my inherited stuff can run, it is motivating me to get hold of some of the Triang models (and old kits) which I don't have, as I can now run them.

I'm collecting TT120 too, but the range isn't hugely extensive as yet of course.

 

That might beg the question of who's going to bite and do a TT tension lock for the NEM 355 of TT..?

[J-Lewis]

We shall see what happens.  The appeal of TT (and both 2.5mm and 3mm) is that it’s a smaller scale but retains enough ‘heft’ to allow for scratchbuilding and detailing.  So the best of both worlds.

 

However the fact that only 2.5mm allows EM style accuracy, plus access to modern locos and stock, including European cross-channel stock like Class 66 etc. and also will be brings super detailed RTR locos like Class 50’s, Class 37’s and so on… it just makes 3mm unable to compete.  The old British TT becomes pointless in terms of a growth scale.  Of course there will still be those of us that model it, but it’s simply dead in terms of resurgence or expanding the user base.

 

Being different isn’t enough, you also need breadth and potential.  3mm has just had both of those elements removed by 2.5mm.  There was talk of Rapdio making some 3mm stock for example, they wouldn’t do that now would they?  I could see Rapido making some 2.5mm stock though, a much better prospect for a manufacturer.  There are only 1000 members in the 3mm society but over 15,000 in the 2.5mm club.  That’s a lot more potential.

 

 

[J-Lewis]

My Peco TT order arrived today.  Wagons are very nicely detailed, and work perfectly with the Hornby wagons.  Couplers seem fine on both my Peco wagons.  Couple and uncouple just as easily as Hornby so all good in terms of operation.  Very smooth running and great value.

I will definitely be placing an order for some more of these.

[Heacham]

On 24/10/2023 at 10:20, J-Lewis said:

Not sure I’m convinced Phil.  I mean sure Hornby Tt track makes it easier for you to run your stock, but you could just as easily have run your Triang stock on any of the other existing track brands from Europe over the past couple of decades?

 

The 3mm is old, it’s outdated and now there is a super detailed, DCC compatible true scale alternative in the new TT120.  I don’t see how 3mm keeps going at this point.  It’s stuck in the past, and although you and I might love the charm of old Triang models I don’t think they can increase in interest outside their currently shrinking demographic.  We shall see.

 

How can a scale be old and outdated 1/120 is actually older than 3mm My father started to build in 1/10 of an inch to the foot scale in the 50s but then Triang came along with TT3 so he switched.  There is also S scale is that an obsolete scale too there are still modellers out their working in the scale with the certain knowledge a RTR model will not come out just as they finish a long scratch or kit build like has just happened to me in 7mm with the announcement of the Accurascale DS88.

 

As for Hornbys new enterprise it is early days yet while initial take seemed good there has been quite a bit bit put up for sale second hand quite quickly Gary buy up a lot of it to chop up into new different items. I think this may be due to modellers realising all they can model is an East Coast mainline it will take a few years for a decent range of stock to become available. I have only seen a few people actually go into building their own locos Gary being the most prolific but he has had the usual issues of finding suitable wheels to use and of course there are many 3D prints out there of varying quality to add to the range. The track has been a great help for TT3 modellers I think it is easier to get hold of and modify than the continental brands which as you say have been around for years.

 

On a selfish note I hope the 3mm society keeps going for at least another 10 years or so by that time I will probably be beyond caring about any models.

 

Simon

[J-Lewis]

16 minutes ago, Heacham said:

 

How can a scale be old and outdated 1/120 is actually older than 3mm My father started to build in 1/10 of an inch to the foot scale in the 50s but then Triang came along with TT3 so he switched.  There is also S scale is that an obsolete scale too

The scale is not really the question, it’s more about the available stock.  All uk outline 3mm RTR stock is from the 1950’s and therefore completely outdated in terms of accuracy, running, control and by any reasonable metric it’s hopelessly left behind.  You wouldn’t make a new OO layout running a Triang Pannier tank when there is superdetailed DCC versions available now?

 

It could be argued that the concept of British only scales like 3mm or OO instead of TT120 and HO like the rest of the world is outdated, and needlessly holds back our UK scene but that’s a different conversation.

[PeterStiles]

1 hour ago, J-Lewis said:

uk outline 3mm RTR stock is from the 1950’s and therefore completely outdated

I think you're missing the point that 3mm is a _modellers_ scale, and the "community" around 3mm seems very strong; RTR doesn't matter to people making their own Everythings the way Everyone did it in the 1950s.

[J-Lewis]

40 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

I think you're missing the point that 3mm is a _modellers_ scale, and the "community" around 3mm seems very strong; RTR doesn't matter to people making their own Everythings the way Everyone did it in the 1950s.

No I don’t think so.  I’ve acknowledged such many times.  You might be missing my point, which is that the hopes for a RTR 3mm resurgence are now dead.  The UK release of TT120 has put the nail in that coffin imo.

 

Nothing stopping anyone from modelling in 3mm or indeed in any scale.  However it’s simply not going to come back from the dead in mass market terms, and there is absolutely no way that any 3mm RTR release could match the multi-thousand sales figures 2.5mm has racked up in just over 12 months.

 

It remains to be seen if 2.5mm will be a success long term, or if it will even continue long enough for all of the proposed models to make it to market.  But you can’t deny Hornby have blown the doors off the 3mm market.   If anyone is looking to start out in a new scale they would be unlikely to choose 3mm at this point.

[Jeff Smith]

I think you are right.  Surely a 'serious' 3mm modeller would in any case use the correct track gauge?  TT3 on 12mm track is as bad as 00!......

[BernardTPM]

Indeed a scale inch and a half worse.

[TT100 Diesels]

Hmmm,  

 

Firstly, I'll say I have nowt against British outline TT 120. I personally hope it is a roaring success.

 

Having said that, I model in 3mm scale, 12mm gauge. It remains and always will be a niche scale, and I am a niche within a niche because I model diesels. However, Lincoln Locos have changed the game, you still need to be a modeller, but its not really hard like making etched brass etc "complex kits" and its a lot further on than the old Triang TT stuff. 

 

I accept, its not everyone's cup of tea and it's not ready to run. But for a reasonable modeller, its getting a lot more accessible, and the volume "heft" is a lot closer to OO, whereas to me, TT 120 does err more towards N. I half like the idea of a little TT 120 something or other, but have had a bit of a wobble over how small it "seems" . Obviously personal perception, I am not saying its wrong or bad though.

 

A few pics of what I am doing in 3mm, if it tempts anyone..............

 

 

A bit more than just the old Triang Brush Type 2, but yes there is one in the picture, but detailed and re painted.

 

 

Ok, you need to be up for a bit of painting resin and 3d print bodies, but I will say this, once having spent the time and effort in detailing and painting & weathering, these locos take on a new meaning. They are immeasurable more cherished and meaningful than anything I could buy from Hornby et al, its the personal modelling input.

 

Apologies, this is getting a bit off topic for Peco PO wagons, but got drawn into the TT 120 / 3mm debate (and very much liking the pic of the 3mm layout and stock that Phil Parker posted).

 

Best wishes

 

TT100 Diesels

[J-Lewis]

Love those diesels, I’m looking forward to the new Hornby TT Class 37, and some blue and grey MK1s.  I’m modelling late transition so the green and early blue liveries are my thing.  The new Class 08 is superb, so it looks promising for the rest of the range.

 

It’s a lovely size, and having the benefit of TT120 Lincoln bodies and RTR sound equipped locos is a game changer imo.

[Les1952]

14 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

I think you're missing the point that 3mm is a _modellers_ scale, and the "community" around 3mm seems very strong; RTR doesn't matter to people making their own Everythings the way Everyone did it in the 1950s.

 

Everybody does NOT do that today- a lot because they don't want to and many (including me with RSI and mild dyspraxia) because they can't.

 

The number of people on the various Farcebook forums for TT:120 has now gone well over 10, 000.  I wonder how that compares with the 3mm scale association.

 

Les

 

 

[woodenhead]

Why does nearly every TT120 thread turn into an TT120 v 3mm debate.

 

This is a thread for a TT120 product, why not just stick to the product, there are plenty of other threads to debate something that isn't going to change as the horse has bolted be it the right decision or not.

 

It's not as if every OO product/layout thread becomes an OO/EM/P4 debate or every N product thread has someone talking about 2mm FS, but every TT120 thread becomes a debate, even 3mm layout threads don't drop into a TT120 debate.

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Why does nearly every TT120 thread turn into an TT120 v 3mm debate.

 

Perhaps because those two letters "TT" conjure up such a strong strain of nostalgia in persons of a certain age.    

[J-Lewis]

31 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Why does nearly every TT120 thread turn into an TT120 v 3mm debate.

Probably just a bit of common or garden envy.  It’s probably not easy seeing TT120 get loads of press and new modellers if you’ve been plugging away in an adjacent scale for years.

 

Hard to think of any other explanation.  It’s certainly clear that there are plenty of people who appear to wish ill on Hornby simply for producing a new range of models, or the TT120 scale just for existing.

 

I’m not sure when model railways switched over into being a grievance pastime for some rather than an enjoyable hobby for all.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

I’m not sure when model railways switched over into being a grievance pastime for some rather than an enjoyable hobby for all.

 

Are you suggesting that I don't enjoy analysing the defects of sub-standard RTR wagons?

[TT100 Diesels]

As I said in my post just a little up thread, I am not anti TT120. I wish it every success. I personally welcome any new scale, it can only bring more depth to the hobby.

 

I posted because I wish to dispel the urban myth that seems to always come up (and on this thread) that 3mm can only be either old second hand Triang TT3 stuff or at the other end of the scale, complex etch brass kits. Of course all that exists, but there is a new movement, a middle ground if you like, which I am finding a nice "reasonably accessible modelling comfort zone" in. Thanks mainly due to Lincoln Locos. 

 

I know there are others in the background carrying out product development on stuff, probably slower than waiting for Hornbys new TT 120 wish list, but as they say good thinks come to those who wait.....

 

But no, its not ready to run, but it is a lot more "accessible" modelling. 

 

And again, just for the avoidance of any doubt, I personally am not against TT120 or ready to run either. 

 

And yes, I see a lot of negativity from some within the 3mm society, and I just think that those folk perhaps need to have a word with themselves. 

 

Above all, whatever folk do, whatever the scale or gauge, rtr or otherwise, there is no right or wrong, its just a hobby to be personally enjoyed, surely.

 

Best wishes

 

TT100 Diesels

 

PS- Last word from me, back to Peco TT120 wagon reviews........

 

[Les1952]

As far as incorrect or missing details are concerned-

 

I'm going to wait until I can see them standing on the layout, and moving on the layout.

 

Then I'm going to see just how much I'm able to spot wrong with them in the circumstances I want them to perform under.

 

Out of the showcase and away from the magnifying glass I suspect the biggest thing I notice will be the unprototypical buckeye couplings (Easi-shunts)

 

Les

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, Les1952 said:

As far as incorrect or missing details are concerned-

 

I'm going to wait until I can see them standing on the layout, and moving on the layout.

 

Then I'm going to see just how much I'm able to spot wrong with them in the circumstances I want them to perform under.

 

Out of the showcase and away from the magnifying glass I suspect the biggest thing I notice will be the unprototypical buckeye couplings (Easi-shunts)

 

Les

 

 

I've not got any of these wagons yet, but my experience with Tillig TT with the same couplings was that they seemed to look more obvious ("worse") on a single piece of rolling stock, but a rake coupled up didn't look too obtrusive at all - I think the way the couplings overlap each other reduced the impact and I was impressed, Keith.

[J-Lewis]

In person and on a layout these TT couplers are pretty unobtrusive, it’s subjective of course, but they seem like a pretty good design and work well at this scale.

[Les1952]

9 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

In person and on a layout these TT couplers are pretty unobtrusive, it’s subjective of course, but they seem like a pretty good design and work well at this scale.

 

They are not that intrusive but I'm finding that they don't always stay coupled when I need them to and don't uncouple all that easily when I want them to...

 

For stuff that I want to stay coupled lap after lap I've switched most things over to Hunt magnetic couplings.

 

For stuff I want to uncouple out front (reliably) I've switched to Dapol Easi-shunt couplings, which work better in TT than in N due to the heavier wagons.

 

My point was that small details on wagons are normally harder to see on a layout than the somewhat larger couplings, yet on RMWeb folks go to great lengths to point out these missing or incorrect details ignoring the much larger incorrect prototypical detail of the coupling, whatever type it is....

 

Les

 

[J-Lewis]

Yes a lot of people focussed on nitpicking minor things like a shade of grey paint or a brake cylinder and totally ignoring all the good 

points.

 

It’s an internet thing I guess.  Armchair manufacturing experts.

[Compound2632]

I am always amused by these folks who seem to take offence at the suggestion that a model should be an accurate representation of what it feigns to portray, within the limits of practicality imposed by the track, wheel, coupling, etc. standards of the scale/gauge combination and the constraints of the manufacturing process. In respect of these Peco wagons, I have criticised nothing that could not easily have been got right at no additional expense or effort.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Compound2632