Do electric trains ever get misrouted?

[Wickham Green too]

17 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

... the driver ... route knowledge should include awareness of non-electrified lines.

In the South Croydon incident, it's quite possible that the driver was perfectly familiar with BOTH routes and driving in an EPB cab very much like that of a 3H - so very much in 'familiar territory'.

[caradoc]

To answer the question; Oh yes! Two examples from Scotland:

 

Rutherglen East Junction, before the route towards Coatbridge and Whifflet, the R&C Line, was electrified (obviously!); Train from the Argyle Line wrong routed onto the R&C, Driver took the route and train became dewired. Staff attended and concluded another EMU could attach to the stranded train, without becoming dewired itself, and haul it back; Unfortunately they had miscalculated and the rescue unit became dewired too. IIRC  a loco was eventually required. 

 

Edinburgh Waverley West end, when only the two outer lines through the Mound Tunnel were wired. Virgin Trains substituted an electric-loco hauled train for a booked HST, however; The Railtrack Controller (not me!) omitted to advise the Signaller, and the train was routed via the centre Mound Tunnel, and the Driver took the route. The resulting delay was thousands of minutes. 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Definitely 'yes'.  

 

A good many years back I carried out a stuf dy on misrouting at junctions for NR and more than a few on the list included electric trains running off the juice.  Reading Spur at one time had a bit of a reputation for it with EMUs failing to stop in time approaching the junction with the signal off towards the GWML instead of towards the 3rd rail electrified platforms.   Apparently the shoes coming off the con rail were quite spectacult if it happened at night with lots of blue flashes lighting up the vicinity.   The cause was a combination of misrouting and Drivers approaching too fast having received a single yellow at the signal in rear of the junction signal.

 

We had one incident at Euirostar where a train ran out of contact but it was a little unusual.  Instead of coming out of North Pole on 3rd rail a Driver came out out on 25kv and when the wires ran out further down the bank from North Pole Jcn the pan went overheight and hit the overbridge carrying the Westway.

 

We had a couple of wrong system selected incidents as well but they were electric to a different electric system rather than running off electric.  plus we had 3rd rail shoes which hadn't retracted hitting ground signals in France because they were out of gauge on SNCF

[keefer]

Was this not why they were so many problems with the FLIRT units in E.Anglia? (Apart from those with the units themselves)

Bi-mode units running around permanently on diesel power thus running out of fuel/overheating etc. because the was a line entering a station or depot which could (and did) lead to units on electric power coming off the wires.

Seemed to be instead of reinforcing training and crew knowledge, someone decided to 'play it safe' and remove the risk by having units running on diesel.

Has there not been a similar problem affecting the Cl.8xx units in Cardiff? In that the wires only go so far on certain tracks and the is a possibility of certain moves taking the unit off the wires.

Edited March 1, 2023 by keefer
Autocorrect correcting!

[uax6]

When the Lynn Road was electrified back in the '90's, a 317 was routed at Ely North Junction onto the Peterborough road, which is wired for about 150yds. The driver took the route and coasted to rest a fair way off the wires. 

The rescue consisted of many* 317's being sent from Cambridge to drag it back...

 

* the reports vary from 4 to 12 sets (317's being 4 car units)...

 

Andy G

[rogerzilla]

50 minutes ago, uax6 said:

When the Lynn Road was electrified back in the '90's, a 317 was routed at Ely North Junction onto the Peterborough road, which is wired for about 150yds. The driver took the route and coasted to rest a fair way off the wires. 

The rescue consisted of many* 317's being sent from Cambridge to drag it back...

 

* the reports vary from 4 to 12 sets (317's being 4 car units)...

 

Andy G

Where's a gronk when you need one?

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

Where's a gronk when you need one?

It won't couple.  (Which you might have heard somewhere else of course.)

[rogerzilla]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

It won't couple.  (Which you might have heard somewhere else of course.)

Do they not have chains or anything to do the job and pull it a few hundred yards?  I know there is a proliferation of coupling types, but even 4 additional units to drag it out seems like a major embarrassment!

[iands]

22 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

In many parts of the network, electrified and non-electrified sections meet.  Has a careless signaller ever put an electric train (not dual-mode either) onto a non-electrified track?  And how difficult would it be to get a diesel there to rescue it?  Do electric train systems work away from the wires/3rd rail, or do the brakes lock on, as with a Tesla car that's run out of juice?

Apologies for being a bit late to the party on this one, but yep, it does happen. I was on the 06:30 ex York to KX on the Up Main one Tuesday morning (on one of my regular weekly visits to London when working on the East London Line Project) when all of a sudden the driver thew the anchor out around Copmanthorpe. The leading DVT had just about reached the Up Normanton after Colton Junction, but the '91' was still well under the wires. The driver realizing at the last minute that that the route had been incorrectly set. Not sure if it was a signaller error or the blame was appropriated to ARS. No damage to infrastructure but a fair bit of delay waiting for the driver to walk back to the '91' and reverse wrong direction for half a mile or so, so the route could be correctly set, and then for the driver to walk back to the DVT again.

Happy days.

[iands]

6 hours ago, DY444 said:

REP powered formations took the Salisbury road at Worting Junction a few times over the years.  Having no prior warning of the route set before the Dn Fast junction signal didn't help.  After it had happened a couple of times the third rail was extended a few hundred yards towards Battledown on the Dn Salisbury to make it easier for a mis-routed emu to extract itself.

 

I'm surprised it hasn't happened at Colton Jn on the up where there was (is?) also no prior warning of the route set.  That may have changed now but it was certainly the case for many years.

It has happened at Colton Jcn, see my comment today on page 2.

 

Not sure what you mean about no prior warning of the route set? Do you mean that the driver on approach to the junction gets no indication of which route is set, e.g. to Up Main or Up Normanton? If so, the attached screen shots from Signalling Notice 117 (WON April 1983) shows that signal Y766 (Up Main protecting the junction) is provided with a position '1' and position '4' Junction Indicator. Admittedly these are not shown on the current 5-mile diagrams for some reason.

 

[Jonb82]

You’re running on greens usually for either route and It’s difficult to see the junction indicators due to the OLE stanchions obstructing, so approaching linespeed and a wrong route offered there isn’t time to stop before passing Y766 on most occasions.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jonb82
Added info

[The Johnster]

Not sure how much a driver can be blamed for a misrouted train; it would depend very much on the particular circumstances.  A typical situation will be where an electric train on a main line is misrouted by a signalling error on to an non-electrified route at speed.  If the junction turnout is speed restricted fast enough (40mph and + IIRC in the 70s but this may have changed in the nearly half-century since I left the job), then the driver will approach it with green aspects and not be aware that he is misdirected until the signal controlling the junction, which will be green with feathers indicating the route set for the branch.

 

This gives him limited time and distance to stop before the final junction signal, and if he overruns it it is not a SPAD.  He will make an emergency application when he sees the feathers, and if the junction is to the right, there may be traffic cleared to pass in the opposite direction that he is potentially and disastrously foul of; it may be better in some circumstances to attempt to clear the junction, but that would be a call I would not like to have to make!   Even if he is not fouling the junction, a major headache is caused, as the train has to be set back inside the previous signal section, and the road reset, which may cause all sorts of problems as the panel will not be able to reset signals on occupied track circuits, and if the rear of the misdirected train has cleared the safety overlap at the junction signal, then another train may have been allowed past double or single yellow signals behind it, only to have the 'board thrown back in his face'.

 

Not connected to electrics (sorry), but this happened to me at Newport while working the 03.15 Cardiff Long Dyke-Carlisle, 7M49, a brake van job routed via Hereford and the North to West line.  We were proceeding through Newport on green aspects on the up relief, 40mph limited, and power was off in anticipation of the 20mph restriction through Maindee West curve.  You have an aspect coming out of the tunnel and the next one is in the station middle roads, not visible until you have entered the station between the platforms on to the straight before the river bridge.  This had a theatre route indicator, showing UM for up main, not the North to West.  My driver was already slowing for Maindee Jc, 'put the lot in' and managed to stop the train without passing this signal, and luckily I'd realised the rough stop was coming because I heard it and managed to get my brake on in time to reduce the 'bump'. 

 

A porter was sent back along the platform to check I was ok and tell me what had happened, and that my driver was engaged in a very heated discussion on the phone with the panel, who insisted that they'd routed him correctly and he'd misread the aspect.  My driver was most apologetic when we got to Hereford, where we had relief, and for a Canton driver to be apologetic to a Canton guard in those days was highly unusual!  He'd done his best and was genuinely worried about me, hence the porter, so I couldn't really hold it against him, it wasn't his fault!

 

This was one of several incidents on Newport Panel's patch that led to my having a congenital mistrust of them. 

[DY444]

59 minutes ago, iands said:

Not sure what you mean about no prior warning of the route set?

 

 

What I mean is the first you know about it is the feather on Y766 by which time it's too late if the wrong route is set.

[iands]

15 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

What I mean is the first you know about it is the feather on Y766 by which time it's too late if the wrong route is set.

Ah, sorry. I misinterpreted what you had written. My apologies. 

[EddieK]

Not related to a train running onto an unwired road, but an incident from the early days of Class 319 Thameslink operation was caused by a relay not latching into the correct position, such that general vibrations caused it so shake into the "wrong" position. 

The train in question suffered a minor blip that caused the driver to press the "Reset" button. Unfortunately the relay in question had been shaken from the DC position to the AC position. On AC mode, "Reset" is also "Pan Up", which was a shame as the train was passing through Thornton Heath at the time.....

[keefer]

I was thinking something similar happened at Bedford, as I remembered it being on YouTube. 

But I found the video and it was actually 2x377 units heading south from the station whose pantographs were destroyed after snagging on something on the OHL.

Result was the same though, train stranded with no way of moving it for a while (and damaged OHL too).

 

[Mark Saunders]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

What I mean is the first you know about it is the feather on Y766 by which time it's too late if the wrong route is set.

The main clue that it’s set for the ECML is you can see a red in  Y760 on the up Normanton!

[DY444]

11 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The main clue that it’s set for the ECML is you can see a red in  Y760 on the up Normanton!

 

Ok but that seems to me to be contrary to the "don't read through" mantra for signals in advance of the next one. 

 

In the old days trainee drivers spent years in the right hand seat learning habits and tricks, good and bad, from the older hands and having a go in the "chair" from time to time.  Reading through at Colton Jn to confirm the route sounds like something you'd pick up from those days.  AIUI driver training now is very prescriptive and procedural and I would have expected reading through to be frowned upon in any circumstances.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen at places like Colton Jn but I can't imagine it's an approved technique.  Putting in a PRI sounds like a much better idea. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by DY444

[big jim]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Putting in a PRI sounds like a much better idea. 

One place that needs a PRI is Trent jn heading north, you don’t know until you see the junction signal if you’re heading toward derby or Nottingham! 
 

Back on topic I remember being in tyseley a few years back and a couple of old boy saltley drivers talking about the time they were sat in the messroom there and a class 87 rolled past light loco on the unwired derby line, they had to go out on the bank loco (class 31) and drag it back to new st!

 

as slight aside is the story I heard of a 323 that got stuck in levenshume after stopping in the neutral section, it was the days pre GSMR, the driver hadn’t contacted the signaller so they stopped another 323 alongside to get the driver to stop and see what was going on “what’s the problem drive?” To which the reply was “same as you now mate” 

 

of course both of those stories could be in the ‘were railwaymen’s stories ever exaggerated’ thread too!

[darrel]

When Leeds Station was being remodeled there was a point where one platform was blocked to electric traction. (I can't remember the platform number now) 

There was a sign on the signal before the station "No electric trains platform xx".

Anyway on the day in question two driver team managers (neither of whom were particularly well liked by drivers) brought a class 308 ECS from Neville Hill depot into the station. The signalman mistakingly routed the train into that platform and the two DTMs took the road and ended up stranded on that platform. A loco had to be hired in to drag it back out. This caused great amusement in the mess room. 

[The Stationmaster]

Lack of PRIs at junctions with fast divergent route speeds is a guaranteed recipe for Drivers being lured into taking the wrong route.  It received very careful consideration when the Heathrow branch at Hayes anda it was realised that a splitting distant simply wouldn't meet the braking distances required in order to match the diverging linespeed.   So a PRI was devised to give even earlier warning of which route was set and meet the braking distance required for a train that was incorrectly routed.

 

When CTRL (aka NS1) was being planned we looked at various PRI situations on lines connecting into it - as part of SPAD risk assessments - and once you've been involved in that sort of thing you very soon realise the benefits of having PRIs.  Interestingly we also looked at them in the Reading Layout Remodelling Working Group in the late 1980s/very early '90s and the WR S&T Schemes Development Engineer came up some very novel ideas capable of handling a variety of diverging routes with differing speeds.  Alas the then Inter City Signal Engineer - who managed to get himself involved - shot down the proposals.  And in the event the layout work, with only two exceptions, never took place because BR didn't have the necessary money.

[rodent279]

PRI is?

 

(I can guess, but would be good to have confirmation that I'm wrong (or right)).

[big jim]

Preliminary route Indicator

 

it’s an indication before a junction with an arrow telling you which route is set for you at the points

[ejstubbs]

On 28/02/2023 at 22:40, Dava said:

Does the TV program you refer to (1970?) still exist anywhere? 

 

Available on iPlayer (i.e from the actual copyright holder, cough cough) in HD: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p012d0t5/tuesday-documentary-engines-must-not-enter-the-potato-siding

[ikks]

On 01/03/2023 at 09:33, Flying Pig said:

 

 

 

Excellent but somewhat melancholy  film, thanks for sharing.

Mike