Anyone Else Put Off Small Suppliers Who Don't Sell Online?

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Weeny Works said:

 

Fair point. 

 

I was more referring to their stance on running even a basic website with just a stocklist of items they have in their shop. I've purchased items outright from them as well. 

 

To be able to upload a continuously accurate online inventory, it would be necessary to have a full stock-take of every item in the shop; upload it; and update it after every single sale!

 

I really don't think that you understand the complexity and time commitment involved in achieving what you are asking for.

 

John Isherwood.

 

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, PhilH said:

That goes back to my point….how do you know that only one trader makes an XYZ without being lucky enough to hear it on the grapevine? That’s why for me an internet presence is almost necessary, to let me know that Johnny One Trader actually makes and markets XYZees (or Zeds)

That's bad luck and I have occasionally felt your pain.  If the trader can sell as many XYZs as he/she can make (or needs to sell to reach the etcher's minimum order) purely through word of mouth then they've achieved their objective without additional hassle and they're under no obligation to advertise.  Of course this model only works where the trader concerned doesn't need to stay in business. 

[Crosland]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

To be able to upload a continuously accurate online inventory, it would be necessary to have a full stock-take of every item in the shop; upload it; and update it after every single sale!

Any decent e-commerce system will keep track of stock for you, once you set it up, and show stock levels and allow pre-orders or give an indication of lead times. OpenCart is free and does this (although there can be niggles).

 

[Jonboy]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

To be able to upload a continuously accurate online inventory, it would be necessary to have a full stock-take of every item in the shop; upload it; and update it after every single sale!

 

I really don't think that you understand the complexity and time commitment involved in achieving what you are asking for.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

This is widely done in the wider arts and craft market, with the shop till being an extension of the website rather than the other way round. 
 

It does however come at a cost both in money and in terms of the time taken to learn and maintain the system. Given the sheer number of inflation related price increases recently I don’t envy them.

[Paul H Vigor]

In a word, no. I much prefer buying my models from a flesh & blood human, in a physical shop or on a trade stand at a show. I'll leave the robo-shopping to the young folks!

Edited March 23, 2023 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[pete_mcfarlane]

Pretty much all of the small traders I buy stuff from by letter in the post are the same traders I was buying from that way 20 years ago. So I don't really see it as an issue, it's just how you deal with them. Ultimately we just need to accept that we are dealing with somebody doing this as a part time hobby business, and not somebody whose livelihood depends on the sales. 

 

1 hour ago, Weeny Works said:

My closest model shop is run by two lovely people (husband & wife). I used to go there, however in the last couple of visits when trying to trade in certain items they offered a derisory price. 

 

I showed them a comparable condition item on Rails or Hattons & said I was hoping to "get in the ballpark of xxx pounds (give or take)". They said they don't pay much attention to online retailers & find it too difficult to run a website with inventory.

Those two retailers are at the upper end of the price spectrum when it comes to selling S/H items, so I'm not sure if they are an accurate indicator of an item's value. 

[pete_mcfarlane]

8 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

The Surf Shop in South London just sounds daft - "location, location, location" - must be one of the most basic rules for any business. Go where the customers are.

But the customers aren't always located where they'll use the stuff the shop sells. 

 

There are two or three winter sports shops within walking distance of my office, hundreds of miles from the nearest piste. They'll get trade from people buying the gear before they go on holiday - I bought some ski boots in my lunch hour once.....

 

 

[CWJ]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

More to the point - fewer and fewer 'railway modellers' seem prepared to undertake anything more challenging than opening an RTR box. Will there be a market for 'kits and bits',?

 

I expect those of us who enjoy tinkering with bits of brass and plastic are in the minority  and everyone else only buys 'kits and bits' out of necessity, i.e. to create something not available RTR.

 

That necessity must have reduced drastically over the last 15-20 years as the RTR world has exploded from pretty much 2 or 3 manufacturers each releasing a new model every year or two into the current very fruitful market where the likes of Accurascale seem to bring out a new loco every week!  Kitbuilding must have become much more of a niche hobby, but it would be a tragedy if it died out, wouldn't it?

 

It'll be interesting to see what the next few decades hold, as the baby boom generation moves on and people of my age have (generally speaking) less money and a later retirement age to hamper our modelling time. This might cause a reduction in RTR releases and a resurgence in kit-bashing... who knows?!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[Andy Hayter]

With the boot on the other foot so to speak, I have failed to make online purchases with a major UK retail outlet as well as a railway society because my card failed the verification process - repeatedly and with several different cards in the case of the retailer.

 

I have no problem with contacting by email/phone and sending a cheque (yes really).  It may slow down the purchase process but I feel sure I am still the first one round here with the model.

 

I think there are benefits of having parallel systems to accommodate different requirements.

[John M Upton]

The one thing worse than a seller with no website is a seller with a bad website. There are some examples out there that are so bad they could be used as examples of what not to do in website design classes.

 

Of course those less tech savvy may well be additionally put off as online purchases now seem to require ridiculous amounts of faffing around with verifications, claims you are not a robot and picking how many pictures have a motorcycle in them before you are allowed to actually buy anything, then there is repeated nagging pop ups for feedback and surveys which also put people off.

Edited March 21, 2023 by John M Upton

[Michael Hodgson]

4 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Of course those less tech savvy may well be additionally put off as online purchases now seem to require ridiculous amounts of faffing around with verifications, claims you are not a robot and picking how many pictures have a motorcycle in them before you are allowed to actually buy anything, then there is repeated nagging pop ups for feedback and surveys which also put people off.

Not just the less tech savvy.

from time to time I leave feedback saying the product was OK but they kept nagging me for feedback etc.

[wombatofludham]

I don't mind giving feedback as I am quick to complain so feel I should praise good service or products for balance.  Mind you when I was asked to leave feedback for some ladies eye mascara I bought online I had to explain that I couldn't really give a review of the effectiveness of the eye lard as make up as I had bought it to use as weathering powder for model trains, but that if any ladies fancied adding dirt to their model trains, it was very good indeed.

They've never bothered me with any offers since...

[montyburns56]

An alternative would be to sell items on Ebay as a trader as it's a lot easier than setting up your own website, although admittedly their fees can be a bit on the high side.

[Wheatley]

22 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

But the customers aren't always located where they'll use the stuff the shop sells. 

 

There are two or three winter sports shops within walking distance of my office, hundreds of miles from the nearest piste. They'll get trade from people buying the gear before they go on holiday - I bought some ski boots in my lunch hour once.....

 

 

Quite. I used to know a chap who built and sold posh power boats, before the speed limit was introduced he had the fastest boat on Windermere. His workshop and showroom was in Leeds because that's where the concentration of people with enough money to buy powerboats was, they were only in Ambleside etc at the weekends. 

 

He was a chartered accountant by training.  I don't know whether was a good accountant or boatbuilder but when I knew him he was 35, retired, and living on Skye. 

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

An alternative would be to sell items on Ebay as a trader as it's a lot easier than setting up your own website, although admittedly their fees can be a bit on the high side.

Fees may be on the high side, but the exposure to potential customers is much greater than otherwise.

[Dunsignalling]

On 21/03/2023 at 18:16, Wheatley said:

That's bad luck and I have occasionally felt your pain.  If the trader can sell as many XYZs as he/she can make (or needs to sell to reach the etcher's minimum order) purely through word of mouth then they've achieved their objective without additional hassle and they're under no obligation to advertise.  Of course this model only works where the trader concerned doesn't need to stay in business. 

Not so much stay in business, perhaps, as keep it manageable.

 

Even where such a business is a means of earning a living for the proprietors, they may be content with it as it is.

 

That might not want to (for example) go over the VAT threshold, exceed what a "one-man-band" or family can comfortably handle or invest in bigger premises / extra equipment.

 

Many such "businesses" emerged from someone's hobby and became a way of that financing itself, nothing more.

 

if any enterprise sells all it wants via the channels it already uses, where's the point in expanding into new ones and potentially turning a pleasurable lifestyle into a demanding slog?

 

"The Apprentice" shows us one way of doing business, but one that many would want nothing to do with.

 

John

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dunsignalling
Typos

[Fishoutofwater]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

if any enterprise sells all it wants via the channels it already uses, where's the point in expanding into new ones and potentially turning a pleasurable lifestyle into a demanding slog?

Perhaps because existing customers are likely to cease ordering (we all will eventually).

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

That might not want to (for example) go over the VAT threshold, exeed what a "one-man-band" or family can comfortably handle or invest in bigger premises / extra equipment.

Good point. I used to live next door to the Coast to Coast chip shop in Kirnby Stephen which was definitely run as a business rather than a hobby. Sometimes it was open in the evenings, sometimes not, depending on how close to the the end of the month and the VAT threshold they'd got. 

[Butler Henderson]

An obscure small trader can easilly get a web presence, they just need to post on here or a more specialist forum like Narrow gauge online . All too many seem to gain custom by word of mouth or someone taking a punt on sending a SAE for an overly expensive badly copied A4 list of items which may or may not be available.

[Mark Forrest]

Interesting thread.  On reflection I'd estimate over 80% of my overall expenditure is online purchases.  Main exceptions are food and drink for immediate consumption and vehicle fuel; so it will come as no surprise that most of my railway modelling spending is done online.  Given the choice between being able to place an online order at my convenience when I remember I need something over having to find time to visit a shop, make a phone call during opening hours or visit an exhibition - it's an easy choice.

 

That said, there are a handful of suppliers who do not have online ordering who I do use, largely where there is no viable online alternative.  Their presence at an exhibition can be the deciding factor of whether or not I attend, so maybe that's something for exhibition managers to consider.

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Fishoutofwater said:

Perhaps because existing customers are likely to cease ordering (we all will eventually).

Though that might well be preceded by the supplier wanting to retire anyway....

 

If somebody offers a product I want, I'll buy it, and five minutes to phone or order by post is no big deal. However, if I can get the same thing (or an acceptable equivalent) more easily, I'm as lazy as the next man. My relationship with Amazon demonstrates that in spades!  

 

The fact remains that if you can sell as much as you want doing business your way, there's nothing to fix.

 

If people don't buy items unobtainable elsewhere because it doesn't fit their preferred MO, that's their problem. There's no practical or moral difference between that and refusing to buy something because it's only available on-line. 

 

In both cases, the non-customer may be cutting off his own nose to spite his face. 

 

John

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 21/03/2023 at 22:10, Michael Hodgson said:

Not just the less tech savvy.

from time to time I leave feedback saying the product was OK but they kept nagging me for feedback etc.

Second requests just get tagged as Spam, and I don't see them any more...

[Dave John]

No I'm not put off by them. Quite the opposite. 

 

If I am placing an order with for instance Alan Gibson then I enjoy writing a letter  that starts "Dear Sir," contains a concise list of components and ends "Yours faithfully,". 

 

Why? Well this might sound utterly pretentious twaddle, but I am a modeller of Edwardian railways. I consider writing a letter and enclosing a cheque to be in keeping with my modelling style, I can enjoy doing so as part of my overall modelmaking experience. I should of course type such letters on an Underwoods typewriter, since that was the preferred supplier to the Caledonian Railway from 1911.*  If I ever get hold on one. 

 

On the other hand I am quite happy to order electronic components direct from China via ebay with paypal. One of these days the chap in China will get a properly written letter in Mandarin.  Maybe. 

 

 

* reference "Operating the Caledonian Railway, Vol 1 " , Jim Summers. 

 

 

 

[Neal Ball]

Interesting thread and comments.

 

Having moved to Spain 4 years ago, I realised straight away that the way I ordered items had to change.

 

Everything has to be on-line and thanks to Brexit, has to be ordered inside the EU.

 

My nearest club is an hour and half away and the model shop of choice is on the Northern coast @8+ hours away! https://www.eltallerdelmodelista.com/en/

 

When we were in the UK we lived outside Bognor Regis, so thought nothing of popping into Gaugemaster on a Saturday for a few bits.

 

Its been an interesting process in building my Metro tank loco, needing various bits to build that I didnt already have. All of course have been ordered on-line. Although I was fortunate in that a fellow RMWebber was going to the UK and collected some items from a model show and then posted them from France.

Good luck to any small business who doesn’t operate a decent website. I know there are costs involved £ and time, but without it, I probably won’t know you are there.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Interesting thread and comments.

 

Having moved to Spain 4 years ago, I realised straight away that the way I ordered items had to change.

 

Everything has to be on-line and thanks to Brexit, has to be ordered inside the EU.

 

My nearest club is an hour and half away and the model shop of choice is on the Northern coast @8+ hours away! https://www.eltallerdelmodelista.com/en/

 

When we were in the UK we lived outside Bognor Regis, so thought nothing of popping into Gaugemaster on a Saturday for a few bits.

 

Its been an interesting process in building my Metro tank loco, needing various bits to build that I didnt already have. All of course have been ordered on-line. Although I was fortunate in that a fellow RMWebber was going to the UK and collected some items from a model show and then posted them from France.

Good luck to any small business who doesn’t operate a decent website. I know there are costs involved £ and time, but without it, I probably won’t know you are there.

 

But - as has been pointed out several times in this thread - very few small suppliers rely on their cottage industry for their main income.

 

To be brutal - you need them more than they need you!

 

.... and it was your decision, presumably being aware of the potential supply problem - to isolate yourself in the EEC.

 

CJI.