Anyone Else Put Off Small Suppliers Who Don't Sell Online?

[Guest WM183]

52 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

But on books you haven't paid VAT twice @WM183.

There is no VAT in the UK. So you haven't paid it.

 

If a small supplier is too small to be VAT registered he does not charge VAT.  So you haven't paid that either.

Yes, but on many products I *do* pay VAT, twice. Am I only allowed to grouse if its on EVERY purchase? 

 

[Guest WM183]

Do people in the UK even want modellers in other countries to model UK prototypes? Man it sure doesn't feel like it sometimes.

 

[djparkins]

53 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

But on books you haven't paid VAT twice @WM183.

There is no VAT in the UK. So you haven't paid it.

 

If a small supplier is too small to be VAT registered he does not charge VAT.  So you haven't paid that either.

 

That is true in a sense but it also means he cannot reclaim the VAT on his/her business inputs that have VAT applied, and then becomes an end-user where that VAT amount is concerned. So he has to pass it on to the customer in with the price, plus his own mark-up on top. This then comes out at maybe a slightly lower end-user price for a UK customer [as he is not paying VAT on the trader's mark-up] but a higher one for custoimers outside the UK, as the VAT paid on the input element of the sale cannot be deducted from the proportion it forms of the export purchase price. Before I reached the VAT threshold [too long ago to remember exactly!] I was constantly getting castigated by my trade customers, saying [in effect] they were sick of paying my VAT for me. They had a point, and the same applies to the example I've just given.

 

As for VAT registration thresholds in the UK - they seem to have risen way beyond, say, the inflation rate. There are two points of view to this. Either we become like some EU countries and the registration threshold is so low that to be any kind of trader you really have to register. This would give everyone a fair and level playing field to operate from in one sense. But then a local VAT inspector told me that 90% of VAT revenue is gained from less that 10% of businesses that are registered for VAT and he said he would like to see the threshold set at as high as £100-120,000 turnover, He was a little dejected on his visit to me, as he was suposed to collect a minimum of £1000 per day in underpaid VAT. I was short by 1p. I asked him if he wanted cash or would they send a bill? - he said he'd waive it. Really, so very kind! This bit is off-topic I know, but interesting nonetheless, I feel.

 

In the end I suppose it comes down to how much a trader is motivated to keep going. But all these oft-mentioned 'new-fangled' changes really are not so hard, and like many things in life are as simple or as complicated as you choose to make them. I personally moaned for a long time about the introduction of making VAT digital but now it's here and I do it, it is simplicity iteslf and just saves so much time. So I was wrong!

 

I think whatever you are - whether a trader or a customer, the main thing is to enjoy what you are doing whilst you are doing it. Once it stops being enjoyable - then you do have the option to quit. The world will keep turning.

[chris p bacon]

30 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Do people in the UK even want modellers in other countries to model UK prototypes? Man it sure doesn't feel like it sometimes.

 

As someone who has helped you in the past by purchasing on your behalf then forwarding as personal mail, I’m noting a ‘deja vu’ about this subject. The last time it was a Dave Bradwell product. 

 I did suggest then that the easiest thing to do was ask a relative or engage with someone who would be happy to receive and then forward on to you.  I do this already for society members outside the UK. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by chris p bacon

[Covkid]

On 21/03/2023 at 11:03, KeithMacdonald said:

Two good examples there from @Hal Nail

 

The Surf Shop in South London just sounds daft - "location, location, location" - must be one of the most basic rules for any business. Go where the customers are.

 

 

Not a lot you can say is there? Except in my "day job" I still find there's still a tiny percentage of customers that pay by cash or cheque, don't used credit/debit cards, and don't have an email address, so we can't sign them up for online activity.

 

It seems like there are a few groups/kinds of people that are falling by the wayside, or being left behind by the online digital world. Like all the little social clubs and associations that we used to subscribe to, and paid by cheque. But some of them struggle to get any form of online activity or even simple card processing like Sumup or Square.

 

I would say that anyone wishing to go into the retail business needs to do so after a very serious examination of their business model.  Have a wander through a town, through the streets and in a few shops, and see how people are doing what they do.  Pretty sure the najority will be using mobile phones. Many use their mobile as a method of payment, or use a tappy debit card.

 

Do you want these people to buy stuff from your business ?  We if the answer is yes, then you know pretty much what you need to do.  I think the covid eperdemic has changed a lot in our lives and I believe cash is not the backbone of retail by any means these days. There are still some places which "prefer cash" and I know of two curry houses who ask what your intended payment method is, because a cash payment will be cheaper (and yes I know they shouldn't).

 

I haven't had a cheque book for over five years so my payment methods are cash, credit, debit and bacs for all my purchases.  

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I would say that anyone wishing to go into the retail business needs to do so after a very serious examination of their business model. 

 

But the question is not about "going into the retail business" but about the cottage industry manufacturer who has been selling his wares for getting on for half-a-century, is getting on a bit themselves, and has no interest in learning how to do e-commerce because they've as much business as they want or need and would rather spend their time in other ways. 

 

The principal problem they face now is getting to a bank to pay their cheques in.

 

Anyway, enough of this, I've got to go and post off my cheque for the next four issues of MRJ.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Compound2632

[Guest WM183]

35 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

As someone who has helped you in the past by purchasing on your behalf then forwarding as personal mail, I’m noting a ‘deja vu’ about this subject. The last time it was a Dave Bradwell product. 

 I did suggest then that the easiest thing to do was ask a relative or engage with someone who would be happy to receive and then forward on to you.  I do this already for society members outside the UK. 

 

Yes, and I genuinely appreciate the help. But do you think that should be necessary? Serious question - how many hurdles should we, outside the UK, have to leap through just to pursue a hobby?

 

And by your own admission, *these folks not dealing with e-commerce is a hindrance* or is that just "business as usual" for you? Justin Newitt does not make that particular underframe, as one is already available and he does not wish to step on Mr Bradwell's toes - which is laudable, and fine. However, a quick email to Justin, a paypal transaction, and my stuff is here within a few days. Should this level of convenience be the norm, or not?

Deja vu is only deja vu if the thing never really happened. This clearly has, and is.

Edited April 4, 2023 by WM183
Clarity

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Yes, and I genuinely appreciate the help. But do you think that should be necessary? Serious question - how many hurdles should we, outside the UK, have to leap through just to pursue a hobby?

 

It doesn't sound much like it. I'm sorry you've had problems buying stuff from the UK - but it's time to calm this thread down. If a trader doesn't want to sell in a particular way, as has been said on here earlier, that is their choice, and if it loses them sales, their loss.

[Guest WM183]

I can't appreciate help AND be critical of the requirement to obtain it? Seriously?

[Wheatley]

33 minutes ago, WM183 said:

 

Serious question - how many hurdles should we, outside the UK, have to leap through just to pursue a hobby?

It works both ways, I've given up trying to buy a particular resin kit from a supplier in Belgium because of minimum order charges, shipping which costs almost as much as the item and an unknown VAT and customs charge when it gets here. I don't fancy being taken for £40 on a 16 euro purchase. Unless Hannants import some or I find one on Ebay it can slide. 

 

And you're still missing the point as to why some of the very small cottage industry suppliers in the UK are selling to anyone. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Wheatley

[Guest WM183]

Now imagine you had to pay in Belgian francs via snail mail. 

 

I didn't get a vote. Nor did anyone in Belgium. Just an FYI.

Edited April 4, 2023 by WM183

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, WM183 said:

I didn't get a vote. Nor did anyone in Belgium. Just an FYI.

 

It was indeed a defect of the referendum that many who would be affected by the outcome were disenfranchised.

[woodenhead]

I think the issue of international sales is seperate from the OP of this thread.

 

It's something created from the decision of the British to leave the European Union and it has affected traders within the UK trading overseas and traders in Europe doing business with residents of Great Britain.

 

As with the OP though, it is up to those traders on both sides of the borders to decide at what level of business they are prepared to start trading outside of their border.  My understanding is that it is complicated, there are ways around some of it but all comes with a cost and that rather sets the sales level at which it becomes more of an obstruction to the trader than a benefit.

 

Doesn't matter how much an individual may be upset, it's the trader's rules not the customer's

[Wheatley]

27 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Now imagine you had to pay in Belgian francs via snail mail. 

Not a problem, I have done that successfully with a trader in Canada, the trick is never to post more than you are prepared to lose. Not an option with the Belgian one sadly. 

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, WM183 said:

I do not like paying VAT twice. Do you? 

 

I never have paid VAT twice, so I am surprised by the comment.

Like you I had no say in the referendum - even though I hold a British passport.

[Guest WM183]

My biggest concern is I *literally cannot send a check*. It isn't a matter of not wanting to. It's impossible. You cannot get a check or money order in the Netherlands. No bank issues them. They do not exist. 

So when I find a trader who does have a website, but who only accepts snail mail with a check in English pounds, It's not that I don't *want* to buy from them. 

I can't. 

THAT is what sparked my tirade. Paypal would eliminate the problem 100%. If they can take a check, they can accept paypal.

Sorry for veering OT. Yes, Brexit is separate from this concern. 

[Dava]

8 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I produce my own etches and have been willing too share them for cost price + a small % to cover the hassle of packing and posting them. I have looked at setting up a website and may do so in the future, but the costs of doing so with a payment option to order adds a significant cost which would have to be covered by the sale of goods.  

I already have enquiries from potential customers who question the cost as they have no idea of the costs of etching, I would no doubt have more with an increased cost and I'm not sure I want the hassle of updating another website (I already look after 1 and help with another)

 

Having a quarter of my sales to overseas and Europe, that has presented no problems whatsoever.  

All you need is your product price list as a pdf file. You can have it downloadable in a 1 page website, or just start a thread on here with the scale & type of your etches. People can email you with orders and pay via PayPal or bank transfer. 
 

People used to ask if Roger at Alphagraphix had a website, he does now but not for online purchases 

https://www.alphagraphixkits.co.uk/

 

Dava

[john new]

On 21/03/2023 at 09:55, ikcdab said:

Yes I agree.  I am far far more likely to buy if there is an online shop. If I have to ring up then I might buy.  If I have to send a letter and cheque then zero chance of me buying.

I am also surprised by those who have online shop but they won't allow you to send credit card details and you have you ring up to pay.

I know it's not fashionable to criticise things, but if you really do want this sell, then an online shop that accepts payments and rapid delivery is essential.

Ian

 

 

Double edged sword.

 

Selling

-at Shows for the SLS I can take money with my personal Square/phone device. Easier than cash too. I then pay what I have taken into the Society a/c.

-on-line needs someone to set up the website shop, postage varies etc., etc. We are waiting for the SLS site to be updated by a volunteer to work for e-trading with Woo Commerce or similar.

 

Purchasing - yes much easier with PayPal, but happy to pay with a cheque if that is the offered option. What I do find disappointing are the traders who still only take cash at shows as doing it with Square is so easy. Having said that though I can commiserate if what I read somewhere about Ally Pally was true - £75 for a wi-fi connection. Last time we did AP with the SLS we had no wi-fi connection which was annoying . A bit of cash to a small show for catering yes; however, what I am not going to do in the modern era is take a big wodge of cash to a show.

[KeithMacdonald]

3 hours ago, Covkid said:

I think the covid eperdemic has changed a lot in our lives and I believe cash is not the backbone of retail by any means these days.

 

Agreed, and I can contribute some quantities as a yardstick from some anonymised retail payment processing data. Here are some relative volumes by payment type (daily averages).

Credit card 10,000

Debit card 600

Cash 800

Cheque 20 (yes 20)

 

Over Lockdown, the volume of cash and cheque payments crashed. Debit card shrunk a lot as well, more people using credit card than ever before.

[KeithMacdonald]

10 minutes ago, john new said:

Having said that though I can commiserate if what I read somewhere about Ally Pally was true - £75 for a wi-fi connection. Last time we did AP with the SLS we had no wi-fi connection which was annoying .

 

I've been at several shows where traders were using Sumup card reader via mobile data. No need for a rip-off WiFi connection!

1.69% transaction fee.

 

https://www.sumup.com/en-gb/card-readers/

[CWJ]

35 minutes ago, john new said:

What I do find disappointing are the traders who still only take cash at shows...

 

Haha, this is a bit like that horrible scenario when you drive to a remote car park in the Lake District to go walking, no towns or villages for miles around, and then discover you only have £3.90 in cash for the £4 parking meter.

 

We no longer live in a world where people can reasonably be expected to have an amount of cash on them at all times.

 

Admittedly this isn't a direct analogy because the car park is providing a public service whereas the small model railway supplier is, as others have rightly pointed out, free to balance the customer's ease of making payment with the supplier's ease of taking it.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

Edited April 4, 2023 by CWJ

[john new]

40 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

I've been at several shows where traders were using Sumup card reader via mobile data. No need for a rip-off WiFi connection!

1.69% transaction fee.

 

https://www.sumup.com/en-gb/card-readers/

That's how the square device works. What was annoying with the no wi-fi was partly personal but from the Society aspect not being able to access our own website other than via a phone signal. I had a copy of everything on my lapt top but that was driving the rolling promotional display,

[Wheatley]

13 minutes ago, CWJ said:

 

Haha, this is a bit like that horrible scenario when you drive to a remote car park in the Lake District to go walking, no towns or villages for miles around, and then discover you only have £3.90 in cash for the £4 parking meter.

The advantage of cash in this scenario is that it doesn't rely on a mobile phone signal (for the 'Wave &Pay' ticket machine) which in turn depends on hills, trees, clouds, rain, misaligned planets etc not getting in the way. I base my comments on the car park behind the Peter Rabbit place in Bowness on Windermere, not particularly remote or disconnected by Lake District standards, in which I have a roughly 10% success rate of getting the damn machine to stay connected long enough to charge me. 

[DaveF]

26 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

The advantage of cash in this scenario is that it doesn't rely on a mobile phone signal (for the 'Wave &Pay' ticket machine) which in turn depends on hills, trees, clouds, rain, misaligned planets etc not getting in the way. I base my comments on the car park behind the Peter Rabbit place in Bowness on Windermere, not particularly remote or disconnected by Lake District standards, in which I have a roughly 10% success rate of getting the damn machine to stay connected long enough to charge me. 

 

There are not too many car parks in Northumberland where you have to pay but a number are cash only simply because there is no mobile phone signal anywhere near them.  I live in a town in the county.  Houses only 100 yards from me can only get a 4G signal outdoors, even inside my house a signal is only reliably availabe near the windows at the front of the house.

 

David

[figworthy]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

I've been at several shows where traders were using Sumup card reader via mobile data.

 

 

Which is fine so long as you're not in a building that acts as a faraday cage.  Brings back memories of having to step outside with traders at Stafford show in order to pay by card.  If only I'd brought enough cash.

 

Adrian