1S68 , The Thames Clyde Express

[South of 1E]

The “Thames Clyde Express†was a famous named train on the Midland main line in the 70’s. Coded 1S68 it linked St Pancras with Leicester, Sheffield, Leeds, Carlisle and Glasgow. At the Luton end it was nearly always class 45/46 hauled, but a good variety of diesel and electric power must have also featured? on the journey North. Believe it stopped running in the early 80’s but no dates.

 

A sample sighting from 20th November 1972 at Luton, 150 worked 1S68 from SP

 

Any Thames Clyde Express memories to share out there?.

 

many thanks,

 

NR,

 

www.leightonlogs.org

[RANGERS]

This was one of those which was killed by stealth. I travelled many times on it's successor, the unofficially titled Trent - Clyde after it was cut to a Nottingham - Glasgow in about 1975. I seem to remember it went via Kilmarnock initially and then diverted to the mainline later on. It was subsequently diverted away from the Settle Carlisle to allow it to serve Manchester but in truth was probably to keep traffic off the S & C and boost it's closure proposal.

 

I only once had a 47, the remainder were 45/0 and 45/1 haulage. usually Toton engines. I can't recall any loco changes en-route which was a bit odd as it could have been electric haulage from Carlisle or Preston in later years. Stock on the Nottingham train was was mk 1 up to around 1978 when it became mark 2 and then A/C a year or two later.

 

There was also a night sleeper with the cars attached at Nottingham, I think this ceased in the late 70s

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Not my memories, but I once read it described as probably the best example of a 'moveable feast' among named UK express services from its' inception early in the LMS' existence, and also the ultimate expression of Midland Railway operational thinking. The permutations of route available to the LMS and subsequently BR(LMR) probably saw this service run on more routes than any similar long distance service in the UK. As an incidental to its' route length, I believe it held the record for number of tunnels traversed in a single journey. The Midland aspect: it was slow, often very slow, in comparison to other London to Scotland services; and the emphasis was on calling on everywhere possible in the Midlands, basically a really long distance stopping service.

 

Realistically what killed it was the death of the Midland concept of railway operation: and it was the passengers what dunnit, we collectively (most of us) expected to get there quickly if the train was to be the method of travel.

[eastwestdivide]

There was a Saturday Leicester-Glasgow until about 82-ish, usually AC Mk2s and a 45/1, or else a 47. I think I've a photo of the last ever working.

 

My 1978 timetable shows the

0715 Nottingham-Glasgow arr 1403 with the note "By changing at Carlisle passengers can arrive 1307". On Saturday it was 0715 arrive 1405

1025 Nottingham-Glasgow 1626. On Sats this started back from Leicester 0940

1605 Nottingham-Carlisle arr 2028. On Sats started at 1551 but same arrival time.

 

The first two had the teacup symbol.

All three via Settle-Carlisle, the only service over that line at that time.

The 0715 went via Dumfries, hence the note about changing at Carlisle.

Same pattern coming back,

0935 Carlisle-Nott 1413

1150 Glasgow-Nott 1751

1610 Glasgow-Nott 2300 (via Dumfries)

 

Sundays there was just one pair

1636 Nott-Glasgow 2239

1515 Glasgow-Nott 2140

 

Timetable nostalgia!

[Gwiwer]

I have enjoyed the Thames - Clyde (10.00 St. Pancras - Glasgow Central if I remember rightly) on numerous occasions during its later days. It would appear to the casual observer to have been just another train out of St. Pancras, as it was a 45 duty and Mk1 stock just like everything else there in the 1970s. While most trains ran to Nottingham or Derby / Sheffield, with a couple on to Leeds, this was the only daytime train to continue northward. The Thames - Clyde reversed at Nottingham and in those days ran back to Trent Junction before taking the right turn past Toton Depot; the route now is via Radford joining the Erewash Valley north of the depot. There was an overnight working at one time as well though not under the same name.

 

The train reversed again at Leeds (City - as it then was) before taking the Settle & Carlisle and GSW routes to reach Glasgow Central via Appleby and Kilmarnock. On some occasions I used it it was a Peak throughout though the loco was changed at Leeds; other times the northern leg was entrusted to a 47. I believe a 40 might have been used on one trip.

 

In the days when on-board service still meant something the catering crew came through the train providing brewed (not instant) tea and coffee from silver pots to all passengers. The restaurant car did a decent trade on the long haul north as the journey encompassed both lunch and dinner times.

 

The return southbound train worked in a similar fashion and was one of the dwindling number of passenger trains between Carlisle and Settle. Only three trips were timetabled once the stopping trains were withdrawn and all stations bar Appleby closed. Ribblehead Viaduct had double track.

 

Then timetable "rationalisation" struck. The Mk 1 rakes were to be replaced with Mk 2, the run-down of the S&C was clearly gathering pace, the train was never terribly attractive as a through London - Glasgow option (nor even London - Leeds, London - Carlisle or Carlisle - Glasgow option as all had much faster and more frequent direct services) and it was alleged that the use of two complete rakes of coaches for a single trip each day could not be justified. My experience was that the London - Sheffield legs were the only really well-used parts of the journey with a 10(?) coach train running virtually empty north of Leeds at times. The Thames-Clyde was cut back to Leeds and lost its name. It was later cut back further to Sheffield to fit the standard service pattern. Timetables varied somewhat and there was a through Nottingham - Glasgow service briefly as mentioned in a post above.

 

Leeds - Carlisle became a separate and very much secondary service, though still loco and coaches (47+4 or 5) though the fortunes of the line - well documented elsewhere - were to turn around soon after. Loco-hauled passenger trains continued on the GSW route between Glasgow and Carlisle and from London to Leeds for a time meaning it was, with a few changes, still possible to recreate the journey. You would have scored class 26 haulage north of Carlisle into the bargain.

 

In retrospect the Thames - Clyde was really an artificial joining-up of three separate workings and conveyed precious little through traffic across Leeds, not that much across Carlisle and at times not a huge amount of traffic anywhere at all. Along with some of the overnight workings which used to criss-cross the country after dark it might have seemed like a blend of tradition and a good idea at one time but truthfully it had outlived any commercial usefulness as a through service by the time of its demise.

[Oldddudders]

Inevitably the clarity of one's memories is in direct proportion to the "wow" factor of the experience. I have therefore to conclude that the Thames-Clyde express didn't quite hit the heights for me. Definitely did the trip throughout, having lunch on the way, about 40 years ago. Long periods of pw slack in Yorkshire - allegedly subsidence in mining areas - hardly improved the experience. Do distinctly recall Clement Freud joined at Wakefield, also looking to dine. He obviously didn't actually eat Chunky Meat! We ran via Kilmarnock - not something I think I've done since. A service of this sort was never going to compete once the Electric Scots got into business in the '70s.

 

Returned overnight via WCML - and kicked someone's coffee over on arrival at Euston! Now that is a vividly embarrassing memory!

[Gwiwer]

Long periods of pw slack in Yorkshire - allegedly subsidence in mining areas - hardly improved the experience.

 

True. I overlooked in my post above the fact that the train ran via the long-closed Cudworth route . This route took the left turn near Swinton station at what I think was called Wath Road Junction, crossed the Hull & Barnsley route into Wath and ambled cautiously past seemingly endless mining ruins and vast scrap yards, closed stations at Cudworth, Royston and others and finally crept with wheels squealing around the sharp curves into and out of Wakefield Kirkgate (without calling) to reach Westgate station. Dreary and slow.

[pH]

I travelled on the Thames-Clyde more than on any other named train. From 1972 to 1978, I lived successively in Sheffield, Nottingham, Long Eaton, Harrogate and near Wetherby. We didn’t own a car, so trips to visit family in the west of Scotland were often made by train, usually by the Thames-Clyde or the overnight sleeper which by then had been cut back to Nottingham. My first memories of the train were earlier than that though – I saw it while it still ran into St Enoch’s, but after diesels had taken over haulage.

 

Yes, there were quicker ways to get where you were going than by using the Thames-Clyde (for example, we used to go Nottingham–Derby-Crewe-Glasgow if we were in a hurry), but it was relaxing to get on the train in Nottingham and just sit there and watch the scenery go by. And the route could change between one journey and the next, especially in Yorkshire. Incidentally, did any other train have the route oddity that this train had at one time – the ‘up’ and ‘down’ trains (at different times in the day , and not at a reversal) standing in the same platform, facing the same way, as the Thames-Clyde once did at Trent? When I used it, it still ran via the G&SW line – I can’t remember if I ever travelled via Carstairs.

 

Gwiwer, I remember the restaurant car crews coming through the train with refreshments. There was some discussion about one particular Glasgow-based crew on the old RMWeb in the topic about unusual/amusing announcements – you got a comic double act from them as an extra.

 

I only remember ‘Peaks’ as power for the train. There may have been Brush 4s on it on some of my later journeys, but after 1968 I didn’t pay too much attention to exactly what was on the front end. However, in September 1965, I did travel from Glasgow to Leeds on the Thames-Clyde behind steam. Apparently the rostered ‘Peak’ had failed at Corkerhill. There weren’t any diesels to substitute, so we had double-headed Stanier 5s from Glasgow to Carlisle and a Brit from there to Leeds.

 

[Ian Smeeton]

My memories are nearly 30 years old, so probably not too clear,

 

But from about 1980, I think, 1co-co1's were banned from Glasgow Central, as the Thames Clyde, often hauled by 40/45 had come to grief (at low speed) on the very worn double diamond crossings at the southern end of the main Central approaches.

 

Certainly, on one occasion in 81/82, we had a loco change at Eaglesham ( I think) 40 for a 37 on a Northbound final leg from Carlisle.

 

The 1650 ex Central, until about 1980 was always from plat 11, the longest platfor at Central, a Nottingham train I thimk, and until certoainly 1980 or thereabouts was often Peak hauled. it was aleays good to see a steam heat train there, although, judging by the amount of steam escaping, possibly not quite so comfortable if you were more than about 4 from the loco.

 

Regards & steamy memories

 

Ian

[ClikC]

Don't forget the down working, 1M86!

 

It was last listed as a 'named' service in the 6th May 1974 - 4th May 1975 timetable, as such I've been working on a model of the service as it ran around about that time (The noted formation dates from 25/5/74) for quite a while now. Anthony Fowkes kindly supplied me the details of the rake, over on Robert Carroll's wonderful BRCoachingStock yahoo group.

 

To this end...

 

 

Lovely mixture of Mk1's and the early Mk2's in the rake, I really should get a move on and finish it...

 

Regards

 

Matt

[luckymucklebackit]

I travelled on the Thames Clyde Express only once, returning from a Carlisle Diesel Depot Open Day in 1971. We were waiting for the next Glasgow train home at Citadel Station when the TCE appeared running very late behind a class 40 towing a dead 45, which had failed somewhere on the Settle and Carlisle, the 45 was dropped off at Carlisle and we boarded the train for some class 40 haulage up the GSW main line.

I also travelled on the Nottingham to Glasgow service in December 1981, I was returning home from Kettering and was due to travel to London to catch the APT home, but heavy snow brought the London area to a halt and I was advised to catch a train to Sheffield and change into the Nottingham Glasgow there, it was (i think) a six coach mkII set with no catering and class 47 haulage. I quite pleased despite missing APT haulage, as I had not travelled over the S&C, and I was frozen by the time I got to Carlisle, having window hung in sub zero temperatures for virtually the whole run!! At Carlisle I changed into that other institution, the 1S85 Carlisle to Perth, to get to Coatbridge Central

 

Jim

[GKPC]

If its of any use I can offer the following; a day return from Sheffield to Glasgow, 18th January 1977.

 

45103 (0124 seems to ring a bell but not 100% sure)Sheffield to Leeds, 45012 forward to Glasgow. The train was the 2130 St Pancras - Glasgow Central, presumably dual heat stock, cannot recall the EH but do recall the leaking steam.

Returned south on the 1610 to Leeds, steaming with 45016.

 

Also involved 40049 to Perth, 40166 to Edinburgh for a couple of runs with tnt 27's.

 

A particularly pleasant memory for me.

 

GKPC

[roythebus]

I travelled on it once, in about 1972 with the first mrs, from St P to Carlisle. Don't know what the loco was, probably a 45. Mk1 maroon stock, with restaurant car.

 

A superb cooked breakfast served somewhere near Luton, and Lunch beyond Leeds was excellent; the fewer passengers, the bigger the helpings, all cooked fresh on board with excellent service.

 

At Carlisle, I bumped into some of the guards from PG who'd been there to watch the Carlisle-Fulham match! We returned by the "quick" way to Euston!

 

I suppose the TCE could be likened to some of the traditional international European trains of the era, stoping at every major city and a few others besides; not too fast, and the traditional superb railway service on board.

[bluesparkdave]

Any information on the consist for the year 1960? Was this around the time when ex-LNER Pacifics were used on the train? Otherwise would it have been Brittanias and Royal Scots?

['CHARD]

Any information on the consist for the year 1960? Was this around the time when ex-LNER Pacifics were used on the train? Otherwise would it have been Brittanias and Royal Scots?

 

Too early for Standards at Carlisle I think.  Pacifics confined mainly to the Waverley and little scheduled passenger action on the S&C.  Jubilees and Black 5s would be my guess.  Don't know much about the Scots but sounds highly plausible.

 

Peaks had conquered 1S68 and 1S64 by 1963.

[Jub45565]

I think in 1960 the catering vehicle was still 12w LMS rather than the BR D25 RKB. Haulage could be an A3, Holbeck Britannia, Jubilee, Scot. If I have time later I'll dig out some dated examples from my library.

[John_Miles]

We had a family holiday in Horton in Ribblesdale in 1960 and it was brilliant for train watching, Mostly the T-C was Royal Scot hauled but I do remember seeing an A3 one day. I never travelled on the T-C, my family used the Waverley instead. This was partly because we needed to travel from Chesterfield to Nelson via Skipton (to see the grandparents) and also I had an uncle and aunty who lived in Edinburgh. As mentioned above, I well remember the slow speed north of Sheffield but more impressive were the steel works between Sheffield and Rotherham (Masborough). There were lots of famous names such as Hadfields, Steel, Peach and Tozer, Firth Brown etc. All no longer with us and the Don Valley is now derelict except for - yes you have guessed it - a shopping centre, Britain is now a country of shop keepers, just as Napolean said.

[robertcwp]

Here are a few formations.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/Thames-Clyde-Express_Notes_17-7-13.pdf

[Jub45565]

Robert's info suggests that in 1960 either catering setup could be used! A very useful source of info.

 

Some photos from 1960 of the Thames-Clyde include:

28/2/60 46145 Scot

13/9/60 70044 Brit

28/5/60 46109 Scot piloted by 40685 2P  (this photo just states that it is a Scottish express, not specifically the TCE - could be the Waverley. Definitely an S&C service). 

21/2/60 45564 Jubilee

23/9/60 46162 Scot

20/8/60 60082 A3 (apparently a Scot on the return trip that day)

20/8/60 45636 Jubilee - south from Leeds

 

All these noted from 'The heyday of Leeds Holbeck and its locomotives' by Gavin Morrison,  An excellent resource, and in colour too.

 

Railways through Airedale and Wharfedale has:

26/6/60 Brit 70053

 

Railway memories no 7 Airedale and Wharfedale:

29/5/60 46113 Scot

3/7/60 60080 A3

4/9/60 70053 Brit

No photo, but a 'short memories' snippet notes that on 10/5/60 Brit 70054 failed at Hellifield and was replaced by 9F 92104 on the up TCE.

26/6/60 46145 Scot

11/6/60 60038 A3

 

I would happily continue through the library, but really should go to bed now - an early flight to Mexico in the morning! (hopefully without any fruitcakes in the cockpit...).

 

I've definitely seen black 5s on it.

Diesel wise, I think the ealiest I have seen peaks is 1961 and 47s in 1966.

[Crewlisle]

Thames Cyde Express in the 1950's - 14B Kentish Town or 20A Holbeck Jubilee St Pancras to Leeds via Cudworth then one of the elusive 20A Holbeck Royal Scots to Glasgow Central via the Settle & Carlisle & G & SWR route to Glasgow St Enoch.  During my spotting days on the Midland main line at Market Harborough in the mid fifties I cannot recall anything except a Jubilee on the St Pancras - Leeds section.  Those were the days!

Edited March 27, 2015 by Crewlisle

[Jub45565]

I'm just going through the Midland Record and LMS journal issues (I need a couple and just seeing which other articles may be of interest).  I notice in LMS journal issue 37 that there is a 14 page article on the TCE. Does anyone have this, and could they let me know briefly what it covers - especially in the late 50s early 60s.  I can tell a lot of loco haulage from photos, so I am mainly interested to know whether it is detailed about coaching stock in any more detail than the likes of Roberts formation information.

 

Cheers,

[Joseph_Pestell]

As others have said, this service was never going to compete for through traffic once the West Coast Main Line was upgraded and electrified. The Nottingham-Glasgow retained some importance because there was a considerable presence of Scots in the East Midlands (miners/steelworkers).

 

On Saturdays, it was available as part of a Merrymaker excursion ticket: northbound from St Pancras at about 07.50 and then a change at Nottingham where the police once nearly prevented me from getting on the Carlisle train as they "kettled" me with travelling Forest fans. One could go either to Carlisle or Lancaster (via Carnforth) on the ticket before an evening return down the WCML to Euston. We did this trip at least four times. If only going to Carnforth, there was time for a trip up the Keighley and Worth Valley.

 

Both in the 70s when gricing the S&C and on these trips, I can only ever recall 45s except for one trip behind the celebrity 40106 north of Leeds.

 

Happy days with plenty of good, cheap beer, Timothy Taylor in particular.

[Reorte]

Diesel wise, I think the ealiest I have seen peaks is 1961 and 47s in 1966.

That's useful thanks, it means I may end up with a Peak on my layout.

[Jub45565]

This is an interesting photo of the TCE:

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/more.php?id=2242257

 

Unfortunately it doesnt seem to be dated, but is after the introduction of the RKB in place of the LMS 12 wheel restaurant cars, and the coach in front of the RKB is of LMS origin.  Looks like it could be a D1999 third open, as the only sort (AFAIK) which didnt have a bog vestibule at both ends - I can't see one at the near end but it is a bit fuzzy to tell with 100% certainty...

[45156]

I travelled on purpose almost the entire route in the mid 1970s as the writing was on the wall even then.  Joined at Kilmarnock with a view to getting to St Pancras sometime that day.  I missed the early London train which was 50 hauled and ran via the WCML after Carlisle, and opted not to change out of the Thames Clyde on the grounds that I now had a good seat, meals would be available, it was going by a scenic route, and anyway I had all day to kill and might as well do so on a train going somewhere.  Class 45 on about eight Mk1s.

 

Lunch as we started the climb into the Pennines was a memorable affair, with a three course meal, plus a beer, and some excellent scenery.

 

After the second reversal, we were running quite late due to traction problems with the assigned Cl 45 and we wound up about 75 late into St Pancras behind a Cardiff Canton Cl 47.

 

Around that time, one of the sets used included one of the last Gresley teak buffet cars, though laterally that was kept more on the Leeds - Glasgow service.

 

In steam days, it was normally Jubilee, Black 5, or Royal Scot, but for a while, Holbeck did put A3s on to this service, and also to some of the other S&C/GSW services.  I never recall it having a Stanier pacific on it, though it might have on occasion.