Ellis Clark Trains & Clark Railworks 4mm OO Quad Arts

[Bucoops]

10 hours ago, Bishdurham said:

I haven't seen an image of the inner end to show how coupling is made.  If it is with a NEM socket, then perhaps it is possible to do in 4mm what the NNR have done in 1:1 and enable a set to be run as a solo 4 carriage unit?

 

As they are selling them in half-sets I certainly hope so (I've ordered the preserved set with this in mind)

[Tramshed]

Do any of the learned contributors to this thread know the difference between diagram 72 brake 3rds and diagram 72B? or between 68 and 68B brake 2nds?

 

Also a note to Clarks. The 'tricomposite' end of sets 79 and 74 appear to have been given the same vehicle running numbers. Probably nothing more serious than a copy & paste oversight but mention it in case🙂. This seems to be the only duplicate.

 

[Pint of Adnams]

1 hour ago, Tramshed said:

Do any of the learned contributors to this thread know the difference between diagram 72 brake 3rds and diagram 72B? or between 68 and 68B brake 2nds?

 

Also a note to Clarks. The 'tricomposite' end of sets 79 and 74 appear to have been given the same vehicle running numbers. Probably nothing more serious than a copy & paste oversight but mention it in case🙂. This seems to be the only duplicate.

 

Brake Thirds (as built):

Diagram 72 8' wheelbase bogies and no Guards ducket (hence Van section not recessed), some later fitted with 8' 6" wheelbase bogies;

Diagram 72B also 8' wheelbase bogies and Guards ducket (hence Van section partially recessed, from the doors), some also later fitted with 8' 6" wheelbase bogies;

For completeness Diagram 72A 8' 6" wheelbase bogies as built, detail changes to underframe and buffing gear, and no Guard's ducket (hence Van section not recessed), and unsurprisingly some later fitted with the 8' wheelbase bogies (well the 'swapsies' had to go somewhere);

 

Brake Seconds (as built):

Diagram 68 - as per Diagram 72 above;

Diagram 68B - as per Diagram 72B above;

Diagram 68A - as per Diagram 72A above.

 

There were also visible differences in the arrangement of the panelling to the Van section and adjacent compartment for each Diagram across both types.

[polybear]

I'd be interested to know when the Teak Finish disappeared (excluding it's use in preservation) to be replaced by the Crimson/Maroon finishes.

[Ellis Clark Trains]

On 21/04/2023 at 18:34, toby_tl10 said:

Were the quad-arts always run in pairs, forming 8-coach trains?

 

Not counting preservation era, other than the N2, what locomotives hauled these?

 

Thank in advance.

 

Hi Toby,

 

They were indeed! :)

 

Often ran in sets of three too, forming a 12 coach set.

 

On 22/04/2023 at 08:28, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

Many congratulations to Ellis Clark Trains on this bold and welcome venture.

 

The GN Quad Arts have been right at the top of LNER Coaches in The 00 Wishlist Polls since 2013. They went into The Top 50 in 2018, staying there for 2019 also.

 

The Poll didn't run in 2020 and 2021 but, in 2022, they missed The Top 50 by only a handful of votes (and, it has to be said, The Poll content had been radically amended possibly changing 'the dynamics').

 

The GN Quad Arts were designed to run as two slightly different sets together and Ellis Clark are to be applauded for their approach. (The GE Quad Arts were very different and were designed to run as a 4-set with additional coaches if needed).

 

Taking my Poll Team hat off for a moment and speaking 'personally', I have just ordered the eight coaches that form Set No.85. The Quad Arts have been on my long-term plan for many years, and I am delighted that Ellis Clark will be producing them.

 

I am intrigued with how these sets will 'look close-coupled' on the straight but still negotiate Radius 2 curves. The bogies are stated to be sprung and - looking at the 'upside down photo' above - it seems that Ellis Clark may have come up with an innovative solution.

 

Perhaps Ellis Clark could comment or show some videos in due course?

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team and where stated from myself)

 

Hi Brian,

 

My fantastic CAD designer, Nikki, came up with an ingenious solution. Picture below:

 

On 22/04/2023 at 10:15, MoonM said:

A great announcement. Anyone know how quick the teak sets were painted into crimson in BR days? I quite fancy a teak set for my early br layout. Thanks 

 

Essentially, Suburban stock was slowly re-painted as it was seen as low priority.

 

These would have been repainted into Crimson anytime from 1954 onwards.

 

On 22/04/2023 at 16:10, Pint of Adnams said:

Don't know if Ellis or one of his crew come back to read these posts, but the one detail not covered in his OP is the matter of the buffing gear fitted at the intermediate end, where the two complementary sets were joined together. In reality these were close coupled, with a single link shackle and vestigial buffers - as just visible in the upper photograph on p134 of Harris' LNER Standard Gresley Carriages (the Diagrams book).

 

For the purposes of transport to and use on the NNR a proper set of buffers and screw coupling were fitted to the preserved set.

 

N7 haulage may be possible, since some were transferred to the GN Section in exchange for some N2s to the GE Section, but the respective crews didn't like them and the arrangement was short-lived.

 

For running in a full 8-coach set, we're supplying a shorter coupling bar and replacement vestigial buffers (within the detail pack).

 

Picture below :)

 

 

3 hours ago, Tramshed said:

Do any of the learned contributors to this thread know the difference between diagram 72 brake 3rds and diagram 72B? or between 68 and 68B brake 2nds?

 

Also a note to Clarks. The 'tricomposite' end of sets 79 and 74 appear to have been given the same vehicle running numbers. Probably nothing more serious than a copy & paste oversight but mention it in case🙂. This seems to be the only duplicate.

 

Whoops!

 

Changed this now and re-attached the correct chart :)

 

[31A]

57 minutes ago, Ellis Clark Trains said:

Often ran in sets of three too, forming a 12 coach set.

 

I should be interested to know the source of that information, as it is not something I have heard of previously, and would not have thought possible given the coupling arrangements.

[BMacdermott]

Hello 31A

 

Copy of my yesterday posting below.

 

Brian

________

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

[Pint of Adnams]

30 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello 31A

 

Copy of my yesterday posting below.

 

Brian

________

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

ECT confused between half sets of four and the complete sets of eight. 31A is quite correct in that a half set (i.e. 1 Quad-Art) could not be coupled to a made-up pair forming a full set.

[Pint of Adnams]

On 22/04/2023 at 10:15, MoonM said:

A great announcement. Anyone know how quick the teak sets were painted into crimson in BR days? I quite fancy a teak set for my early br layout. Thanks 

An Eric Bruton photograph dated 4 March 1951, reproduced in LNER in Transition on p59, shows a set already repainted in Crimson by that date at Hadley Wood. Unfortunately the set number is partially obscured by steam from the steam heating pipe but it begins with 8.

 

Crimson was introduced from 1949 and Maroon from 1956. It would depend on painting due dates for individual sets as to when the livery was changed. Be aware that from 1948, until the introduction of BR Standard coaching stock in 1951, all Grouping coaching stock was to carry a prefix letter identifying its owning region, E in this case, and was applied to the LNER style number on stock still in teak finish. Following the introduction of BR Standard coaching stock this identifier was changed such that on Grouping stock the prefix identified the owning region and a suffix was added to identify the region responsible for maintenance.

 

A note on the ends of carriages and lack of lining...

 

Another point worth noting was that the ends of non-vestibuled (non-gangwayed) coaching stock were painted black from as early as October 1925 and that the articulated suburban sets were not lined from the outset.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Pint of Adnams
Further amplification.

[31A]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello 31A

 

Copy of my yesterday posting below.

 

Brian

________

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

 

Thank you Brian, I did wonder; I think I've read that before.  Three sets = 24 vehicles, then!  But as an ECS move.

 

[Ellis Clark Trains]

Hi All,

 

Ellis here - apologies - my mistake on the set of 3 (12 coaches).

 

24 vehicles... anyone for a limited edition set of 6 quads... :D

 

All the best,

Ellis.

[Pint of Adnams]

One Quad-Art (4 cars) measured 168' 9.5" over buffers, or the equivalent of 2.5 main line Gresley carriages, so 6 would be equivalent to 15 main line carriages - not an unknown formation on the GN main line and nothing near some of the WW2 loadings. Also the weight of one Quad-Art was just shy of 80 tons tare, so 480 tons empty was equivalent to a well-loaded East Coast working.

[88D]

Good to see that Ellis Clark are catering for EM and P4 modellers— I wish more of the other manufacturers did the same.

[Keith Turbutt]

Besides the use of quad-arts on the GN suburban services for many years after World War Two a special train for Servicemen continued at weekends between Hitchin and Henlow Camp station on the Bedford line using quad-art stock.

 

Search online for Ben Brooksbank photos where a alphabetical search under 'Hitchin' will reveal a photo of a J15 with an 8 car set of quad-arts.

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, Ellis Clark Trains said:

Often ran in sets of three too, forming a 12 coach set.

 

 

3 hours ago, 31A said:

I should be interested to know the source of that information, as it is not something I have heard of previously, and would not have thought possible given the coupling arrangements.

 

Have to confess to know diddly squat about these, but would draw your attention to a special train which ran between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954.  The formation appears to be a brand new Mk1 TSO or SK in crimson and cream livery followed by twelve quad art vehicles.  The purpose a trial or publicity run of BRCW built Commonwealth Railways NSU51 which was a Sulzer 6LDS28 powered single ended diesel locomotive. I can only assume to loco was air braked and needed airbraked stock to haul. 

 

If the quad arts were airbraked which I assume they were, how did they get moved from the GN or GE region over to Birmingham ? Were many B1s or B17s fitted with air brakes ?  I notice in the comments above that a 9F was used to haul six Quads back from the Nottingham area.  Were any 9Fs air fitted (rather than air pump fitted for Consett)  ?  If they were airbraked, what was used to take them to Skeggy and Mablethorpe ? 

 

More questions than answers but the BRCW trial and photo are in "BRCW a century of achievement" published by Runpast in September 1995   ISBN 1 8760754 34 4

[Covkid]

So I  went into Youtube and found this video on the Pichi Richi Railway: Sulzer Engine NSU 52 Leads the 753 Afghan Express to Port Augusta 26/10/19 - YouTube   www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjBmotwr5z0

 

That beautiful 6LDA28 Sulzer beat - heavenly !!!

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Have to confess to know diddly squat about these, but would draw your attention to a special train which ran between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954.  The formation appears to be a brand new Mk1 TSO or SK in crimson and cream livery followed by twelve quad art vehicles.  The purpose a trial or publicity run of BRCW built Commonwealth Railways NSU51 which was a Sulzer 6LDS28 powered single ended diesel locomotive. I can only assume to loco was air braked and needed airbraked stock to haul. 

 

 

I think they used 3 quin-art sets for that run, there are pictures of it on route and I counted 15 vehicles plus the mk1.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by simon b
pic added

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Have to confess to know diddly squat about these, but would draw your attention to a special train which ran between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954.  The formation appears to be a brand new Mk1 TSO or SK in crimson and cream livery followed by twelve quad art vehicles.  The purpose a trial or publicity run of BRCW built Commonwealth Railways NSU51 which was a Sulzer 6LDS28 powered single ended diesel locomotive. I can only assume to loco was air braked and needed airbraked stock to haul. 

 

If the quad arts were airbraked which I assume they were, how did they get moved from the GN or GE region over to Birmingham ? Were many B1s or B17s fitted with air brakes ?  I notice in the comments above that a 9F was used to haul six Quads back from the Nottingham area.  Were any 9Fs air fitted (rather than air pump fitted for Consett)  ?  If they were airbraked, what was used to take them to Skeggy and Mablethorpe ? 

 

More questions than answers but the BRCW trial and photo are in "BRCW a century of achievement" published by Runpast in September 1995   ISBN 1 8760754 34 4

 

The GN Quads were vac only I believe. The GER had a lot of Westinghouse air braked stock and locos, especially for the Jazz service for it's better performance for quick starts and stops. Newer stock followed suit so the Quints, and even some of the suburban and mainline stock was dual fitted.

[Pint of Adnams]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Have to confess to know diddly squat about these, but would draw your attention to a special train which ran between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954.  The formation appears to be a brand new Mk1 TSO or SK in crimson and cream livery followed by twelve quad art vehicles.  The purpose a trial or publicity run of BRCW built Commonwealth Railways NSU51 which was a Sulzer 6LDS28 powered single ended diesel locomotive. I can only assume to loco was air braked and needed airbraked stock to haul. 

 

If the quad arts were airbraked which I assume they were, how did they get moved from the GN or GE region over to Birmingham ? Were many B1s or B17s fitted with air brakes ?  I notice in the comments above that a 9F was used to haul six Quads back from the Nottingham area.  Were any 9Fs air fitted (rather than air pump fitted for Consett)  ?  If they were airbraked, what was used to take them to Skeggy and Mablethorpe ? 

 

More questions than answers but the BRCW trial and photo are in "BRCW a century of achievement" published by Runpast in September 1995   ISBN 1 8760754 34 4

Same photograph is in the BRCW History but larger, with an incorrect caption. The breaks every fifth carriage plus the need for Westinghouse braking confirms unequivocally that they are three sets of GE Quins, 15 not 12.

[Johan DC]

4 hours ago, Ellis Clark Trains said:

 

 

24 vehicles... anyone for a limited edition set of 6 quads... :D

 

Tempting, but I'll start with two teaks and go from there. While not cheap, I think it's a very reasonable price. I don't think you can build this from a kit for this price. I planned on building them as a next project after my TPO and Pigeon van, now I'll have to look for other LNER stock. Plenty of choice! 

 

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, simon b said:

 

I think they used 3 quin-art sets for that run, there are pictures of it on route and I counted 15 vehicles plus the mk1.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

The GN Quads were vac only I believe. The GER had a lot of Westinghouse air braked stock and locos, especially for the Jazz service for it's better performance for quick starts and stops. Newer stock followed suit so the Quints, and even some of the suburban and mainline stock was dual fitted.

 

45 minutes ago, Pint of Adnams said:

Same photograph is in the BRCW History but larger, with an incorrect caption. The breaks every fifth carriage plus the need for Westinghouse braking confirms unequivocally that they are three sets of GE Quins, 15 not 12.

 

Thanks for the correction.  Didn't realise the GN and GE fleets were different in terms of brake type, but obviously thought that air brakes were need for the Sulzer trial.

Assume the Mk1 coach was the coupler adapter from the buckeye on the loco to the screw shackles on the Quints.     

[45568]

7 hours ago, Ellis Clark Trains said:

Hi All,

 

Ellis here - apologies - my mistake on the set of 3 (12 coaches).

 

24 vehicles... anyone for a limited edition set of 6 quads... :D

 

All the best,

Ellis.

Hi Ellis,

             I am very interested in purchasing two sets to make the eight-car rake. I live in Australia and would like to know if you will be deducting VAT from overseas sales, (it will make quite a saving on the price),

If you are not able to deduct VAT will these coaches be available from any retailers in the UK who can deduct the tax?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Pint of Adnams]

7 hours ago, 45568 said:

Hi Ellis,

             I am very interested in purchasing two sets to make the eight-car rake. I live in Australia and would like to know if you will be deducting VAT from overseas sales, (it will make quite a saving on the price),

If you are not able to deduct VAT will these coaches be available from any retailers in the UK who can deduct the tax?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

Best to contact Ellis directly by e-mail at: ellis@ellisclarktrains.com rather than by 'phone given your location.

 

But I think that you will find your question already answered on this easyish-to-find page on his website: Buying info | Buy model trains & train sets | Ellis Clark Trains 👍

Edited April 25, 2023 by Pint of Adnams
Found all the information on the ECT website - simples!

[69843]

8 hours ago, 45568 said:

Hi Ellis,

             I am very interested in purchasing two sets to make the eight-car rake. I live in Australia and would like to know if you will be deducting VAT from overseas sales, (it will make quite a saving on the price),

If you are not able to deduct VAT will these coaches be available from any retailers in the UK who can deduct the tax?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

I cannot vouch for from new, but I can definitely vouch for second hand. Any time I have purchased from Clark Railworks, the VAT has been deducted. I can also say they have excellent customer service via email as I had a small issue with post once and they were straight on it and very open and communitive about it all.

[Johan DC]

34 minutes ago, 69843 said:

I cannot vouch for from new, but I can definitely vouch for second hand. Any time I have purchased from Clark Railworks, the VAT has been deducted. I can also say they have excellent customer service via email as I had a small issue with post once and they were straight on it and very open and communitive about it all.

Same here in Belgium, and also second hand only. First class service, VAT deducted, and very reasonable prices!