Ellis Clark Trains & Clark Railworks 4mm OO Quad Arts

[Phil Bullock]

28 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Any possibility of a Quin-Art?

Bet it isn’t just a case of inserting another intermediate coach? 

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Any possibility of a Quin-Art?

Yes, if you don't mind changing scale! 

https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/preorder-rangedetails.aspx?id=C25

 

I assume the single coach is for addition to a quad-art set.  Assuming that approach is correct it would seem to be a no-brainer for a future Ellis Clark product.

 

I have read that the moulds for the Ian Kirk kits are now too worn to be of further use, but you can always watch out on ebay for one of the original quint kits.

 

 

[MoonM]

A great announcement. Anyone know how quick the teak sets were painted into crimson in BR days? I quite fancy a teak set for my early br layout. Thanks 

[Downer]

19 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

£80 per coach to this standard and specification is something of a bargain IMHO,

 

Acceptable perhaps, but a bargain?

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, if you don't mind changing scale! 

https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk/catalogue/preorder-rangedetails.aspx?id=C25

 

I assume the single coach is for addition to a quad-art set.  Assuming that approach is correct it would seem to be a no-brainer for a future Ellis Clark product.

 

I have read that the moulds for the Ian Kirk kits are now too worn to be of further use, but you can always watch out on ebay for one of the original quint kits.

 

 

 

No idea where you've got that from. They are scheduled for reissue....

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/articulated-sets

 

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

Sales volume is not going to be massive, partly because of the price.

They only ran in a quite limited number of routes, and not everybody has room for an eight coach train, or even a four.

Especially if there is market competition.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

No idea where you've got that from. They are scheduled for reissue....

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/articulated-sets

 

 

 

Jason

That's good news, though there's no prices on those yet.

 

So the question will be are the kits going to be better value for money than the Ellis Clark.😀

 

If the SR coaches are anything to go by, the kits should be a lot cheaper even after adding the cost of wheels and couplings etc. 

[Pint of Adnams]

Don't know if Ellis or one of his crew come back to read these posts, but the one detail not covered in his OP is the matter of the buffing gear fitted at the intermediate end, where the two complementary sets were joined together. In reality these were close coupled, with a single link shackle and vestigial buffers - as just visible in the upper photograph on p134 of Harris' LNER Standard Gresley Carriages (the Diagrams book).

 

For the purposes of transport to and use on the NNR a proper set of buffers and screw coupling were fitted to the preserved set.

 

N7 haulage may be possible, since some were transferred to the GN Section in exchange for some N2s to the GE Section, but the respective crews didn't like them and the arrangement was short-lived.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Pint of Adnams

[BMacdermott]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They only ran in a quite limited number of routes, and not everybody has room for an eight coach train, or even a four.

 

Hello Michael

 

They ran to Doncaster for servicing and were sometimes 'shipped out' of London on summer weekends for seaside excursion work.

 

Although eight coaches sounds like 'a long train', it equates to about five long underframe Mk1 non-gangwayeds.

 

Brian

[NXEA!]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Michael

 

They ran to Doncaster for servicing and were sometimes 'shipped out' of London on summer weekends for seaside excursion work.

 

Although eight coaches sounds like 'a long train', it equates to about five long underframe Mk1 non-gangwayeds.

 

Brian

I did seem to recall they ventured to the seaside at weekends, thanks for confirming that. Any particular branch-lines that have been mentioned or that have photographic evidence for? 
 

I will be pre-ordering one, not 100% correct for the GE but near enough! Can’t wait. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, NXEA! said:

I did seem to recall they ventured to the seaside at weekends, thanks for confirming that. Any particular branch-lines that have been mentioned or that have photographic evidence for? 
 

I will be pre-ordering one, not 100% correct for the GE but near enough! Can’t wait. 

 

Isn't there an early 60's picture of a D84XX having a jolly from London to Brighton formed of these?

 

Mike.

[Keith Turbutt]

There is an interesting article in Railway World Vol 27 No 312 dated May 1966 by G.M.Kitchenside entitled

"End of the Quad Arts". It's a six page article with lots of information, photos and diagrams.

 

There were two builds, first by the GN and later builds by the LNER. They differed in that the GN builds had duckets while the LNER builds did not. As the GN builds had duckets the guards compartment was recessed like other Gresley brake coaches. The LNER sets without duckets did not have recessed guards compartments. 

 

The Ellis Clarke illustrations show duckets but the guards compartments do not appear to be recessed.

 

 

[TheEngineShed]

14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Isn't there an early 60's picture of a D84XX having a jolly from London to Brighton formed of these?

 

Mike.

 

How about a Class 30?

 

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

56 minutes ago, Keith Turbutt said:

There is an interesting article in Railway World Vol 27 No 312 dated May 1966 by G.M.Kitchenside entitled

"End of the Quad Arts". It's a six page article with lots of information, photos and diagrams.

 

There were two builds, first by the GN and later builds by the LNER. They differed in that the GN builds had duckets while the LNER builds did not. As the GN builds had duckets the guards compartment was recessed like other Gresley brake coaches. The LNER sets without duckets did not have recessed guards compartments. 

 

The Ellis Clarke illustrations show duckets but the guards compartments do not appear to be recessed.

 

 

Hi Keith

 

To add to things the early LNER builds did have duckets and recessed guards compartments like the GNR coaches, they also had GNR fanlights above the door droplights not fixed ventilators. These were on 8ft heavy duty bogies as were the next batch of LNER coaches. The last ones built had standard 8ft 6in bogies. There was some bogie swaps later in life. I haven't checked the suggested numbers by Ellis Clark to see if they are 8ft bogies or 8ft 6in bogies, but the information can be found in the brown Harris LNER coach book.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[Keith Turbutt]

Thanks Clive. The Kitchenside article says that the GN design was perpetuated into the early LNER so I think we are both correct depending on how you look at it. The article I've quoted also mentions the bogie changes.

However this does not alter the fact that the sets with duckets, whether built by GN or early LNER, to the GN design should have recessed guards compartments - as does the preserved set on the M&GN which Ellis Clarke based their research on. I'm sure it will all get sorted before production begins.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Keith Turbutt
spelling

[NXEA!]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Isn't there an early 60's picture of a D84XX having a jolly from London to Brighton formed of these?

 

Mike.

I knew of a photo of a D84xx heading to Brighton, didn’t know the stock was quad-arts. If Quad-Arts could make it to the likes of Brighton and Hull, I’m sure they would have made it to East Anglia on occasion - that’s what I’m choosing to think, anyway! 

[Curlew]

Feel sure I've seen a photo of a set hauled by a baby deltic on its way to or from Skeggy

[Keith Turbutt]

3 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

 

 

The Ellis Clarke illustrations show duckets but the guards compartments do not appear to be recessed.

 

 

Further to my earlier email, on closer inspection of the illustrations with the Quad-art anouncements

the B&W (cad?) illustrations do not show the recessed guards compartment but the teak coloured illustration (see below) does appear to show the recesse so hopefully Ellis Clarke have got it right and the B&W illustration is not the latest version.

[MrSimon]

On 21/04/2023 at 17:45, Ellis Clark Trains said:

Quad Arts! Our entrance into the 4mm OO Gauge market.

 

That’s right, we’ve been working on our latest announcement for some time now and it’s probably not what you were expecting!

 

We (Ellis Clark Trains) are producing these models exclusively for our sister company Clark Railworks, who are our OO wing of the family.

 

What’s the N gauge wing of the family called…?

[Enterprisingwestern]

9 hours ago, MrSimon said:

 

What’s the N gauge wing of the family called…?

 

N for non existent!

 

Mike.

[BMacdermott]

16 hours ago, NXEA! said:

I did seem to recall they ventured to the seaside at weekends, thanks for confirming that. Any particular branch-lines that have been mentioned or that have photographic evidence for? 

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

 

 

[zr2498]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

 

 

Now that would be a long train! So, who is going to purchase 6 quad sets with a bit of renumbering (£££££).

[NXEA!]

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello NXEA

 

I'm fairly certain that Railway Observer gives details of sets that had been transferred north subsequent to the introduction of DMUs in London - but I can't find it at present!

 

However, whilst looking, I found the item below in the September 1958 issue:

At about 7.30pm on Tuesday 5 August, a 9F 2-10-0 was noted passing over Welwyn Viaduct with a 24-coach empty stock train - three 8-car Quad Art sets being returned to London after being used on Nottingham-Skegness day excursions during the August Bank Holiday weekend.

 

Brian

 

 

Thanks for that. Is there a book on Quad-Arts and Quint-Arts? Apart from Steve Banks’ website can’t find much information on them. Will just have to use the set I acquire on an excursion to somewhere in East Anglia. 

[BMacdermott]

Hello NXEA

 

Not that I am aware of.

 

Brian

[Pint of Adnams]

17 hours ago, NXEA! said:

Thanks for that. Is there a book on Quad-Arts and Quint-Arts? Apart from Steve Banks’ website can’t find much information on them. Will just have to use the set I acquire on an excursion to somewhere in East Anglia. 

First you'll be stretching Rule 1 a long way - the GE section had more than enough of its own Quins for excursions and the GE Quads weren't generally used for that purpose.

 

As to books, the two standard works are those by Michael Harris that cover the whole gamut of LNER coaching stock:

 

LNER Carriages, with a reprint available from Noodles Books/Crecy but currently out-of-print - at rip-off price on Amazon LNER Carriages or try the usual railway second-hand booksellers, and the book that's principally Diagrams and numbers titled LNER Standard Gresley Carriages but also out-of-print and again at rip-off prices.

 

There were three visibly and constructionally different variants of  the GN Quads, two mainly similar variants of the GE Quins, and the GE Quads were substantially different from both. The GN Quads had to operate in pairs due to the lack of a standard coupling and buffers in the centre of the combined sets, whereas the GE Quins were typically only operated in pairs at peak times and for excursions. The individual carriage lengths and compartment/brake arrangements also differed between the GN Quads and GE Quins.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Pint of Adnams
Correction in last sentence - GE Quins

[Bishdurham]

I haven't seen an image of the inner end to show how coupling is made.  If it is with a NEM socket, then perhaps it is possible to do in 4mm what the NNR have done in 1:1 and enable a set to be run as a solo 4 carriage unit?