Except it's not driverless and will require two personnel on board

[mcowgill]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Perfect for long motorway journeys.

 

 

Exactly, that's where I suspect we'll see this but buses and taxis into town/city centres?   How long before pedestrians learn that they can hop across the road knowing that vehicles will just stop for them - we're not the US with jaywalking laws restricting crossing points.

 

Will the autonomous vehicle overtake me on my cycle commute where I'm generally just below 20 mph on a 30mph road passing parked cars on the inside?   I suspect it will sit behind and assess the risks of overtaking differently to a real driver, I'll generally pull in after a line of parked cars and expect (and am ready for) a few closer than ideal overtakes before the next obstruction.  The autonomous vehicle probably needs a bigger gap so I'm then blamed for increasing congestion.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by mcowgill

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

But it is not bulletproof which is why you don't see Tesla stating it is any better than Level 2 autonomy at present, despite what the mouthpiece may say, the company's legal people keep it more real.

 

I don't doubt that cars will be able to drive themselves, unfortunately it is some of the people inside the cars that will remain the problem.

Yes it’s a beta product but it’s getting & gathering lots of real world data every day which has to generate faster development to the next level rather than demo runs round old airfields.

 

it’s not just people that are a problem, the quality of our roads, verges and especially, road markings will need to improve to be recognisable to the machine 

 

 

[J. S. Bach]

So the cost to the taxpayer will be astronomical!

Edited May 15, 2023 by J. S. Bach

[stewartingram]

5 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Will they let self-propelled vehicles on the road without a man with a red flag walking in front? Probably not.

 

 

Would you want to be the man with the flag? - with that thing following you......

[stewartingram]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

People said food deliveries would never take off. Now everyone does it!

 

 

In the early 2000s, Tesco were the only ones (I believe) doing a .com service. I took a job as driver for them for a while, having been made redundant elsewhere. I loved it! Took me back to when I was a nipper, my 2 Uncles ran the small village shop, and had an old van they used for deliveries to the surrounding villages, sometimes I was allowed to go along for the ride. 

This new-fangled home delivery service is NOT new (ok the PC bit is), but I'm talking about the early 50s! When we moved to Cambridge, around 1959-60, my Mum walked to the local shop, put an order in with Joe, and he delivered it. Wheel has gone full circle.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

We have had automatic trains for years: Victoria Line & DLR have always been self-driven, as has the Central Line since the 1990s. They have never operated without a trained driver who can take over though.

I thought the DLR was totally driverless? (admittedly I've only used it a few times)

Where does he sit? I once sat at the front where the emergency control cabinet is situated and I couldn't see an LT official of anysorts in the unit, it appeared to be driving itself.

On another occasion there was a problem and somebody was actually driving it manually.

[Steamport Southport]

48 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

In the early 2000s, Tesco were the only ones (I believe) doing a .com service. I took a job as driver for them for a while, having been made redundant elsewhere. I loved it! Took me back to when I was a nipper, my 2 Uncles ran the small village shop, and had an old van they used for deliveries to the surrounding villages, sometimes I was allowed to go along for the ride. 

This new-fangled home delivery service is NOT new (ok the PC bit is), but I'm talking about the early 50s! When we moved to Cambridge, around 1959-60, my Mum walked to the local shop, put an order in with Joe, and he delivered it. Wheel has gone full circle.

 

I was more thinking fast food rather than weekly groceries.

 

Tap the app on your smartphone and you can get a McDonalds, KFC, pizza or kebab delivered to your door.

 

And if you are in some places it's delivered by robots!

[30801]

56 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was more thinking fast food rather than weekly groceries.

 

Tap the app on your smartphone and you can get a McDonalds, KFC, pizza or kebab delivered to your door.

 

I went to a McDonalds a few weeks ago and there were as many delivery riders there as 'real' customers.

[ejstubbs]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

actually no vehicles on the bridge in any direction except for the bus.

 

Access to the original Forth Road Bridge is nowadays restricted to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport vehicles.  As such, it's not very heavily used and it wouldn't be unusual for a bus to cross it without encountering any other traffic (pedestrians and cyclists are segregated from the lanes used by public transport vehicles).

 

Either side of the bridge, though, it will be mixing it with normal traffic, from Ferrytoll to the bridge, and then from the bridge to Edinburgh Park, which latter part includes a couple of reasonably complicated junctions.

[Grovenor]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

I thought the DLR was totally driverless? (admittedly I've only used it a few times)

Where does he sit? I once sat at the front where the emergency control cabinet is situated and I couldn't see an LT official of anysorts in the unit, it appeared to be driving itself.

On another occasion there was a problem and somebody was actually driving it manually.

The DLR Train Captain, or whatever the current job title is, can be anywhere in a 3 car set so may not be seen in the front for significant periods. Door closing, which they must do, can be done from any doorway. When there is a need to drive manually then they do so from the front desk. Also if there is a report of tresspassers or there are staff trackside for some reason, usually on the sections adjacent to NR, then they may go to the front desk to be in a position to blow the horn or emergency brake. Doors can also be closed from the front desk using the platform mirrors.

[kevinlms]

I see that it behaves like some real drivers. Weaving between traffic lanes!

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, 30801 said:

I went to a McDonalds a few weeks ago

😄

[mozzer models]

One of the big problem with auto drive is who pays out if theres a crash ?? the owners insurance Or the programs insurance

Edited May 16, 2023 by mozzer models

[Derekl]

1 minute ago, mozzer models said:

One of the big problem with auto drive is who pays out if theres a crash ?? the owners insurance Or the programs insurance

 

At present, the owner is liable. That is why all the automated programs require the driver to pay attention and be ready to intervene. Of course, if the thing does something it really ought not to (that is, malfunctions and renders intervention difficult or impossible), then the driver's insurance may want to investigate taking the liability back.

 

The issue will have to be addressed when we do eventually get fully driverless vehicles - probably some arrangement will have to be made probably to render the suppliers liable, but there are complexities here, as I think you are pointing out.

[jjb1970]

Autonomy is one of those word like 'digital', 'holistic' and 'system' which is becoming devalued by misuse (or am I the only one who has to sit through countless presentations on stuff like holistic systems based approaches and digitisation?). My main concern is that typical risk assessments and hazard studies insert that in the event of it all going wrong a human operator will save the day, assuming that the human operator will be prepared to intervene and that people who spend their time scratching their backside looking at stuff on their devices as autonomous systems do everything for them will retain the skills to take control. Driving should be pretty straightforward, it's a bit different with more complex applications.

[woodenhead]

11 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

I went to a McDonalds a few weeks ago and there were as many delivery riders there as 'real' customers.

A local McDonalds that opened in the past 12 months has a separate entry for the delivery drivers so they don't crowd the customer serving area.

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, Derekl said:

 

At present, the owner is liable. That is why all the automated programs require the driver to pay attention and be ready to intervene. Of course, if the thing does something it really ought not to (that is, malfunctions and renders intervention difficult or impossible), then the driver's insurance may want to investigate taking the liability back.

 

The issue will have to be addressed when we do eventually get fully driverless vehicles - probably some arrangement will have to be made probably to render the suppliers liable, but there are complexities here, as I think you are pointing out.

I suppose you could argue that a software issue that causes a crash would be the equivalent of any other sort of defect that could not be reasonably anticipated by the owner that causes a crash - the sort of thing that would result in a recall for a mechanical component that ended up with the same result.

 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, mozzer models said:

One of the big problem with auto drive is who pays out if theres a crash ?? the owners insurance Or the programs insurance

I can't say I've read through the entire report , but the issue has been studied in some detail by 'the government' in recent times, see the Law Commission report for example:-

 

https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/automated-vehicles/

 

Edit: you can get the gist by just scrolling down to the summary recommendations, which include. most pertinent here:-

 

"New legal roles for users, manufacturers and service operators, with removal of criminal responsibility for the person in the passenger seat"

 

Which seems entirely fair to me if the vehicle is truly autonomous. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by spamcan61

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Derekl said:

 

At present, the owner is liable. That is why all the automated programs require the driver to pay attention and be ready to intervene. Of course, if the thing does something it really ought not to (that is, malfunctions and renders intervention difficult or impossible), then the driver's insurance may want to investigate taking the liability back.

 

The issue will have to be addressed when we do eventually get fully driverless vehicles - probably some arrangement will have to be made probably to render the suppliers liable, but there are complexities here, as I think you are pointing out.

But are 'driverless cars', just like nuclear fusion, which has been promised for decades, yet we still don't have any such power stations.

In the 1950s, we were promised that electricity would be free, because the cost of production would be so low, as to make it a wasted effort to measure usage.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

But are 'driverless cars', just like nuclear fusion, which has been promised for decades, yet we still don't have any such power stations.

In the 1950s, we were promised that electricity would be free, because the cost of production would be so low, as to make it a wasted effort to measure usage.

 

They're already here! And smarter than you think....

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

22 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Personally, I'd love a properly self-driving car. Trundling up motorways isn't my idea of fun.

Quite agree.  I like the idea of a car that I can get into, say "Home James", then relax with a drink or three letting the machine do all the work.  With fully developed driverless technology you don't need to do the school run - the kids can drive themselves!  The technology will give more independence to the blind and others whose disabilities disqualify them from driving.

Happy to drive a car myself - but the road has to be sufficiently interesting and require enough input from the driver that you don't fall asleep at the wheel!  I couldn't work as a supervising driver nominally in control of one of these things.  One of the probelms with a safety driver supposedly supervising autonomous operation is boredom once the technology is nearly there - and it's his fault if he can't concentrate and therefore fails to take control in time when the system does fail unsfafe.

I don't believe the impact of this technology has been fully thought through, particularly with regard to human reaction to belief in its its reliability.  If they can be trusted to brake to prevent accidents, you don't need to use pedestrian crossings when you want to cross the road - you will simply stroll across wherever you like whilst streams of traffic come screeching to stand to avoid knocking you down.  It will only take a handful of inconsiderate pedestrians wandering about to cause gridlock.

But the biggest challenge they face is trying to combine autonomous operation with conventional vehicles.

[Reorte]

I really don't want a car that drives itself; going up the motorway in that sounds even more boring than doing the driving, and it's not as if driving's something I mind doing. I'm also pretty fundamentally against automation anyway, at least past a certain point, to the degree that I frequently find it rather offensive.

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, Reorte said:

I really don't want a car that drives itself; going up the motorway in that sounds even more boring than doing the driving, and it's not as if driving's something I mind doing. I'm also pretty fundamentally against automation anyway, at least past a certain point, to the degree that I frequently find it rather offensive.

 

However for most people owning cars is on the way out.

 

Look at London for example with the ULEZ scheme (eventually going to be rolled out elsewhere), add in fuel prices, parking, insurance, etc. it's getting far too expensive for most people. There is also that fact that many employers are cutting hours/days or "working from home" so fewer people are commuting.

 

The idea is you'll call a car. You tell it where to go and it'll take you there. Think of them as more like a "Boris Bike" or those electronic scooters.

 

You won't need a licence or driving test as you aren't driving.

 

They aren't meant for long motorway journeys or jaunts in the countryside. They are for cities.

 

 

Jason

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However for most people owning cars is on the way out.

 

Look at London for example with the ULEZ scheme (eventually going to be rolled out elsewhere), add in fuel prices, parking, insurance, etc. it's getting far too expensive for most people. There is also that fact that many employers are cutting hours/days or "working from home" so fewer people are commuting.

 

The idea is you'll call a car. You tell it where to go and it'll take you there. Think of them as more like a "Boris Bike" or those electronic scooters.

 

You won't need a licence or driving test as you aren't driving.

 

They aren't meant for long motorway journeys or jaunts in the countryside. They are for cities.

That might be the case for a not insignificant minority of people but "most", not at all. I hope to avoid it, it sounds very dystopian.

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However for most people owning cars is on the way out.

 

Look at London for example with the ULEZ scheme (eventually going to be rolled out elsewhere), add in fuel prices, parking, insurance, etc. it's getting far too expensive for most people. There is also that fact that many employers are cutting hours/days or "working from home" so fewer people are commuting.

 

The idea is you'll call a car. You tell it where to go and it'll take you there. Think of them as more like a "Boris Bike" or those electronic scooters.

 

You won't need a licence or driving test as you aren't driving.

 

They aren't meant for long motorway journeys or jaunts in the countryside. They are for cities.

 

 

Jason

 

14 minutes ago, Reorte said:

That might be the case for a not insignificant minority of people but "most", not at all. I hope to avoid it, it sounds very dystopian.

Sadly Jason is correct, the expectation that mass car ownership will die out in the next couple of decades and people will car share regardless of the means of propulsion. 

 

Big cities are working towards them being more and more pedestrianised - Birmingham have just announced a big plan to green the centre by 2040, Manchester has been working towards this for years and London's public transport shows it is not necessary to own a car if there are viable options at any time of day or night.

 

Car producers are making less cars, Covid 19 really disrupted production and continues to do so at the moment, but you can see that they are also moving quickly away from lots of models towards a more streamlined future - Ford has already dropped the Fiesta, the Focus will go in 2025 and their entry model will be a Tourneo which is more akin to a van than a car - very Citroen Berlingo which still in production and has an electric model now.  Small cars for the city of becoming more scarce as well with fewer models available or in development.

 

The price of cars has also accelerated since Covid 19 - a basic Fiesta being nearly £20k and most electric cars are still very expensive unless you are leasing - rental has priced people out of homes, electric cars may do a similar thing to a lot of younger people in favour of car sharing or public transport.