You (might) Have to Speak English

[SM42]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

... even if that language chosen is French! 

Parisians look down their Gallic noses at you if you speak French with a provincial accent, let alone a foreign one.

 

Accents I find a strange thing 

 

At school we need to adopt an accent in French or German ( bit like am dram classes )

Yet almost every non native English speaker, speaks English with their own accent.

 

I find it very odd the English seem to be the only ones to do this. 

 

I definitely speak Polish with a West Midlands accent.

No one seems to mind, many don't notice (or are too polite to say anything ) 

 

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

On 25/05/2023 at 12:07, e30ftw said:

so only the french and the welsh will be upset by this.😄

When it was proposed (by the Danes) that English should be adopted as the third official language - after German and French for the European Timetable Conference - the French didn't really care one way ofr the other (they would prioably just ignore it).  But the Austrians went ape and we had one bloke haranguing the meeting in very strident tones and pointing out that it would mean the end of civilisation as we (he) knew it.  

 

The proposal was voted out although I doubt if, as usual, the Italians understood any of it so I don't think they even bothered to vote.

Edited May 26, 2023 by The Stationmaster
typos

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

https://www.railtech.com/policy/2023/03/21/a-common-language-for-european-train-drivers-additional-hurdle-or-solution/

Some of that is incorrect/. There is no requirement to change Drivers (and other traincrew) at every border crossing. There has been international working of traincrews for many years - albeit in some cases for only limited distances into another country to so called 'border stations' which w are physically some distance from the border.

 

But longer distance working has been around for quite a long time on, for example, Eurostar and Thalys with Drivers working through to destination in another country and even passing through a third country on the way.  But the convention has been that the Driver and 'Guard' (or equivalent thereof) have to be able to speak the language of the country they are working into or through and be able to understand its operating documentation (which will obviously be in the country's native language).

 

This situation was  fully recognised in the financial arrangements dealing with through working where, ideally, a balance was required between the two countries involved but if there was an imbalance in mileage worked a financial adjustment system was in operation (and, again, had been for many years) .

 

The problem now is that there are lots of open access operators, especially freight, working over long distances outside the country in which they are based..  However a common language would not solve everythung unless each country also translates its Rules & Regulations etc intoa version in that language or 'international Rule Books' are prepared - in whatever language - for every route (as was done for Eurostar).

 

And of course umpteen other staff need to communicate with Drivers in the normal course of everyday working so what happens there.  For example there are subtle differences between DB and SNCF safety procedures for Shunters when attaching or detaching locos - things have to be thought through right down to that sort of level. if there's going to be a new language imposed on any railway.

[swampy]

8 hours ago, SM42 said:

Trying to learn Polish is a nightmare. 

 

7 cases ( I don't understand the names of them in English, so what hope is there to use them correctly in Polish?) 3 genders so that's potentially 21 different endings to each noun and its adjectives. 

 

 

42 endings? 7 cases x 2 (singular and plural) =14 x 3 genders =42

[ruggedpeak]

Not sure that langauge is that big an issue. Having moved to Switzerland and travelled around European railways one thing I notice is the casual approach to mobile phone use on the railway.

 

Those who work the railways in the UK can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that mobiles are basically banned in the cab. In Europe it seems more relaxed with drivers filming themselves for Instagram and all sorts. Whilst in Germany I watched a MU driver pull into the platform, park the train, get out the cab, walk down the platform to the other end and get into the other cab for the return journey, the whole time chuntering with his mobile phone held to his ear. Never put it down once. I'd have thought agreeing basic safety standards might be a better start!

[Rugd1022]

16 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Not sure that langauge is that big an issue. Having moved to Switzerland and travelled around European railways one thing I notice is the casual approach to mobile phone use on the railway.

 

Those who work the railways in the UK can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that mobiles are basically banned in the cab. In Europe it seems more relaxed with drivers filming themselves for Instagram and all sorts. Whilst in Germany I watched a MU driver pull into the platform, park the train, get out the cab, walk down the platform to the other end and get into the other cab for the return journey, the whole time chuntering with his mobile phone held to his ear. Never put it down once. I'd have thought agreeing basic safety standards might be a better start!

 

We're not allowed to have our mobiles on in the cab unless we need to use them in an emergency, although there is one generally accepted exception when we're entering an engineering possession, as one of the first things the signaller asks for is your mobile phone number to give to the PICOP.

 

Over the last couple of years or so I've encountered a few eastern European ground staff in a few places here in the UK, for example there's one at Hams Hall who speaks excellent English, this is vital when communicating with back to back radios.

 

A few weeks ago I was conducting a mate down the Midland Mainline en route to Harper Lane Sidings at Radlett, approaching Harpenden we encountered two yellows to which I announced in almost perfect Italian ''duo giallo', his face was a picture, he thought I was auditioning for a bit part in 'Inspector Montalbano'!

[Michael Hodgson]

[kevinlms]

21 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Having been to and driven all around Thailand I was thankful that most road signs are in both Thai & English, and they drive on the left (sometimes !!).

 

 

 

 

I think something was misunderstood in translation !!

 

Brit15

But at least the one in front of you, can't run into you. You can watch where they are going.

 

All bets are off, if they are coming towards you of course!

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

We're not allowed to have our mobiles on in the cab unless we need to use them in an emergency, although there is one generally accepted exception when we're entering an engineering possession, as one of the first things the signaller asks for is your mobile phone number to give to the PICOP.

 

Over the last couple of years or so I've encountered a few eastern European ground staff in a few places here in the UK, for example there's one at Hams Hall who speaks excellent English, this is vital when communicating with back to back radios.

 

A few weeks ago I was conducting a mate down the Midland Mainline en route to Harper Lane Sidings at Radlett, approaching Harpenden we encountered two yellows to which I announced in almost perfect Italian ''duo giallo', his face was a picture, he thought I was auditioning for a bit part in 'Inspector Montalbano'!

If your mobile is off in the cab, how does anyone contact you in relation to the engineering possession? Presumably you are allowed to, until passed the works?

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

If your mobile is off in the cab, how does anyone contact you in relation to the engineering possession? Presumably you are allowed to, until passed the works?

 

Re-read the first paragraph of what Rugd1022 posted!

 

What he is effectively saying  is there is no requirement to be contacted by the PICOP until you draw up to the signal protecting the possession. While transiting to site you are just like any other train - with a planned schedule so there is no requirement for you to be contacted by anyone from the possession* (particularly as trying to absorb complex instructions while on the move is dangerous). If you do need to be contacted (to tell you that you may be held in a loop / station because the possession is running late then you will be given the instruction via the signaller over GSMR (who may of course ask you to contact your own control when safely at a stand in said loop / station).

 

Once at the protecting signal that is where you will transition from the railway controlled by the signaller and the normal rules apply regarding signals etc and 'PICOPland' where signals effectively vanish (you can drive through reds at line speed if instructed to, etc), TPWS etc may be isolated and you basically work to verbal directions from the PICOP. As the PICOP does not generally carry a GSMR equipped mobile round with them, the drivers regular mobile will therefore need to be operative from then on so they may receive instructions.

 

Once you leave the possession however and are once again under control of the signaller then the phone must go off just as would be the case with any other train - any instructions will be given over GSMR

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by phil-b259

[Michael Hodgson]

41 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

As the PICOP does not generally carry a GSMR equipped mobile round with them, the drivers regular mobile will therefore need to be operative from then on so they may receive instructions.

 

Once you leave the possession however and are once again under control of the signaller then the phone must go off just as would be the case with any other train - any instructions will be given over GSMR

 

That seems to imply you are required to have a mobile, and have it with you, properly charged, if you are driving an engineering train that will enter a possession?  Would that be a company-issued phone?  Or is it a case of No hat, No Boots, No job?

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That seems to imply you are required to have a mobile, and have it with you, properly charged, if you are driving an engineering train that will enter a possession?  Would that be a company-issued phone?  Or is it a case of No hat, No Boots, No job?

 

 

Given train driving is pretty much a salaried job with contracted hours 'no job' not the correct term!  You should also note that PPE requirements for train drivers is not the same as infrastructure workers (the 'All orange'' requirement not applying to drivers for example).

 

As far as I know all drivers have company issued smartphones so they can contact their control and receive important communications when away from a driving cab - which can include remote booking on and other mundane matters. Not having it on you and suitably charged would not be looked upon kindly were it to cause a delay to operations or engineering works but it would need one of our train driver members to lay out what the consequences might be.

[KeithHC]

Well I try when abroad and can manage to order two beers in about five different languages! 
 

but getting back to the suggestion of use of English one has to ask at what standard. As has been said before English is the standard language of aviation. A few years ago ICAO deemed that all commercial licences had to include a test on the use of English and graded it I believe from 1 to 5. One being the lowest to five being the highest. Yet most at the time British pilots could only get a level 3 or 4 despite being fluent and this was down to pronunciation. Mainly in the correct according to ICAO of pronucing “Thousand” to comply with ICAO the correct way is to say “Tousand”.

 

Maybe we should charge Europe for using English…………….

 

Keith

getting my hat and coat

[Michael Hodgson]

11 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

Well I try when abroad and can manage to order two beers in about five different languages! 
 

 

So does that mean you get ten beers?😄

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Re-read the first paragraph of what Rugd1022 posted!

 

What he is effectively saying  is there is no requirement to be contacted by the PICOP until you draw up to the signal protecting the possession. While transiting to site you are just like any other train - with a planned schedule so there is no requirement for you to be contacted by anyone from the possession* (particularly as trying to absorb complex instructions while on the move is dangerous). If you do need to be contacted (to tell you that you may be held in a loop / station because the possession is running late then you will be given the instruction via the signaller over GSMR (who may of course ask you to contact your own control when safely at a stand in said loop / station).

 

Once at the protecting signal that is where you will transition from the railway controlled by the signaller and the normal rules apply regarding signals etc and 'PICOPland' where signals effectively vanish (you can drive through reds at line speed if instructed to, etc), TPWS etc may be isolated and you basically work to verbal directions from the PICOP. As the PICOP does not generally carry a GSMR equipped mobile round with them, the drivers regular mobile will therefore need to be operative from then on so they may receive instructions.

 

Once you leave the possession however and are once again under control of the signaller then the phone must go off just as would be the case with any other train - any instructions will be given over GSMR

 

 

I was referring to this statement, which implies that the phone is not meant to be on, normally. Sorry I asked now!

 

We're not allowed to have our mobiles on in the cab unless we need to use them in an emergency,

 

How can they be used in emergency for incoming calls if turned off?

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Bucoops]

If a driver has a requirement to have a communication device that is not covered by whatever is built into the vehicle (GSM-R etc.) then I would expect it to be supplied by the employer and it be configured to only allow approved apps etc. - one reason is data security. 

[jjb1970]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However a common language would not solve everythung unless each country also translates its Rules & Regulations etc intoa version in that language or 'international Rule Books' are prepared - in whatever language - for every route (as was done for Eurostar).

 

And of course umpteen other staff need to communicate with Drivers in the normal course of everyday working so what happens there.  For example there are subtle differences between DB and SNCF safety procedures for Shunters when attaching or detaching locos - things have to be thought through right down to that sort of level. if there's going to be a new language imposed on any railway.

 

I think the problem for railways is so limited that it's questionable whether it's worth the effort to do it properly, it'd be easier to just stay siloed and work in national languages. That may exclude some people from working cross border trains but so would a requirement for fluency in English. Aviation and shipping are much more international in nature and have specialized UN agencies developing international regulations (including on language) but the vast majority of railway operations are national. The fact that cross border rail links are common around the world and work indicates railways manage cross border links fine.

[phil-b259]

29 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

 

We're not allowed to have our mobiles on in the cab unless we need to use them in an emergency,

 

How can they be used in emergency for incoming calls if turned off?

 

 

Why do you assume that emergency calls must be incoming? I see nothing contradictory about the statement that mobiles must be turned off unless they need to be used in an emergency. What about in the event that the GSMR fails due to damage sustained in a derailment!

 

Please remember that no train is permitted to go into service with defective GSMR equipment - and should that equipment fail on route then the train must be removed from service ASAP.

 

As such if an emergency call needs to be made to the driver (i.e. an incoming call) about a railway related issue then it will be done via the GSMR

 

If its a non railway emergency (e.g. family member taken to hospital) then the procedure would be the drivers manager (and there must always be such a person available, even if only on a 'on call' basis' as a point of contact while the driver is driving) will make arrangements for the driver to be relieved / the train berthed safely before the driver is told of the non railway emergency.

 

This is because any driver receiving a non railway emergency call will be unable to give full concentration to driving and presents a danger to other trains and railway staff.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by phil-b259

[Rugd1022]

33 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I was referring to this statement, which implies that the phone is not meant to be on, normally. Sorry I asked now!

 

We're not allowed to have our mobiles on in the cab unless we need to use them in an emergency,

 

How can they be used in emergency for incoming calls if turned off?

 

 

Any emergency incoming call will be made via the GSMR, in the event of the GSMR being disabled for whatever reason we switch on our work issued mobile and make contact with the relevant signaller straight away - I hope that clears it up.

 

Phil mentioned above that we're issued with company smartphones, this isn't the case (not with my company anyway), we're given very basic mobiles but some of us put the sim card in our own phones which is allowed.

 

A few weeks ago I was working in a possession on the Bletchley - Bicester branch and my company phone died for about six hours (the sim card, not the battery), unfortunately I didn't have another phone with me and this caused a few problems as the back to back radio left by the previous driver had also died. Eventually the Engineering Supervisor worked out where I was and came round in his van with a freshly charged radio so we were able to continue working.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Rugd1022

[kevinlms]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Why do you assume that emergency calls must be incoming? I see nothing contradictory about the statement that mobiles must be turned off unless they need to be used in an emergency. What about in the event that the GSMR fails due to damage sustained in a derailment!

 

 

 

Why are you insistent in saying that emergency calls must be outgoing. Surely emergency could mean either way? But they can't be incoming if the bloody thing is off!

[Rugd1022]

Just now, kevinlms said:

Why are you insistent in saying that emergency calls must be outgoing. Surely emergency could mean either way? But they can't be incoming if the bloody thing is off!

 

See my post above yours Kevin 😉

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Why are you insistent in saying that emergency calls must be outgoing. Surely emergency could mean either way? But they can't be incoming if the bloody thing is off!

 

Because train driving has been assessed by the regulators as an occupation where there must be NO DISTRACTIONS!

 

A mobile phone going off is a distraction regardless of what the purpose of the call is and is thus a switched on mobile is not permitted in driving cabs in the UK.

 

I repeat, ALL EMERGANCY CALLS a driver can possibly need to know about while engaged in driving will be transmitted TO them via the GSMR equipment. 

 

However the railway needs to acknowledge that if the GSMR kit is damaged say, it is imperative that the driver is able to make an emergency phone call to the signaller via their mobile(and keep the phone on afterwards so as to receive further instructions - and this is why the regulations have an exemption for emergency calls. 

 

Emergency calls which are NOT related to train driving are NOT a emergency as far as railway communications go so must not be communicated to the driver till they have been relieved or otherwise secured / berthed their train and are no longer engaged in driving duties.

 

Now it is freely acknowledged that working inside a engineering possession is not an 'emergency' - but at the same time there are lots of things permitted inside a possession which are not permitted outside of it! Isolating TPWS for example - ignoring red signals being another and whats more the railway inside the possession no longer 'belongs' to the signaller! As such it is essential to have reliable communications (including the ability to pass emergency messages) with the PICOP (who typically does not have a GSMR facility) and in such cases the use of mobile phones in driving cabs would be permitted.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by phil-b259

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because train driving has been assessed by the regulators as an occupation where there must be NO DISTRACTIONS!

 

A mobile phone going off is a distraction regardless of what the purpose of the call is and is thus a switched on mobile is not permitted in driving cabs in the UK.

 

This is going nowhere because you assume that I'm ignorant and don't know about any sort of driving and mobile usage! Give it a break, please.  Driving and mobiles are always a distraction - please point out where I have ever stated anything different.

 

This started when it was stated that the mobile number was given on possession work as an exception and also that mobiles had to be off when train drivers were driving - which is fair enough.

 

My question was why give your number out for emergency contact, if it's off?

 

Sorry you see that as insulting.

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Phil mentioned above that we're issued with company smartphones, this isn't the case (not with my company anyway), we're given very basic mobiles but some of us put the sim card in our own phones which is allowed.

 

 

There was a recommendation from the RAIB a year or so ago that Smartphones (or tablets) should be issued to drivers so they could be dent personal reminders of late change notices after a driver overlooked one for a 20mph TSR on the ECML and went over a defective rail at close to 100mph. 

[kevinlms]

18 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

See my post above yours Kevin 😉

That makes more sense to me, thanks for the clarification, instead of implying that my question shouldn't be asked.

 

A different system, so the phone is a back up to another means of contact.

 

😁