You (might) Have to Speak English

[SM42]

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

The problem for native English speakers is WHAT foreign language should we learn ? 

 

This is I believe the crux of the matter 

 

I don't know, but am pretty sure that if you looked at the language curriculum in a school in most non English speaking countries, you would find English as the dominate language, rather like French probably dominates the curriculum here. 

 

I have a little bit of school French, can just about do German numbers and can get by about 15% of the time in Polish. 

I can do thank you in Polish, French, Russian, German, Latvian, Afrikaans, Dutch  Japanese and possibly Spanish and Italian if i don't get them mixed up. 

 

Am I fluent in any? 

 

Not by a long way. 

 

Mrs SM42 on the other hand has very good English, one of her friends teachs A level maths and physics in her second language;  English, another nurses likewise in English. 

 

This may explain why we are not very good at languages as a nation. 

 

There's no need. 

 

Andy

[jjb1970]

When I was at school the only languages they taught were French and Latin. No options for Spanish or German, let alone anything from further afield. They would have done more for their pupils by dumping Latin for a modern language such as Spanish.

 

On what to learn, that's difficult as nobody really knows where life will take them. Bahasa Indonesian would have been great for me but less so for most others. Looking at usefulness for general travel Spanish is a good default. For professional value Mandarin is another good default.

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

The one I admire is a Russian chap, he speaks in Russian while listening to the English simultaneous translation and then takes the translates to task if they don't get it right. To do that while developing complex arguments takes a lot of skill. His English is also better than most native speakers.

Ah translating Russian. Does that mean translating what is said, or what is meant? I'm thinking of Putin and his wild claims about the success of his 'special military operations' (which of course is itself a lie!) in Ukraine.

[TheQ]

Primary schools taught only English.

First secondary school the only extra language was French. But he taught it from a grammar point of view when half the terms he used we hadn't been taught yet in English. Hence I have no idea.

Second secondary school Gaidhlig native speakers and English, note I put Gaidhlig first. I was therefore exempt doing Gaidhlig not being a native.

Third secondary school, English, Gaidhlig native speakers, Gaidhlig learners, French, German. But I only did English.

 

Unlike my late brother who was fluent in English, Gaidhlig, French, German, Russian, several computer languages and could get by in Spanish, Portuguese and Thai. I have no ability in languages .

 

For me today, no foreign language would be of much use, even speaking Norfolk is fairly useless these days as we have been invaded by foreigners, especially those born in Yorkshire and London.

 

Political speak  in any language, for any party, is mostly a way of lying without being pinned down to what you said, to con the gullible into voting for them.

 

Today I will be speaking R.D.F. and  R.A.D.A.R. to many who visit, https://www.radarmuseum.co.uk/

 

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

My late friend was an aide to one of our admirals at a NATO bash, when a French admiral asked why all those parties to be conducted in English, an American general turned around, because if we hadn't turned up in the wars you'd be speaking German. End of conversation.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

When I was at school the only languages they taught were French and Latin. No options for Spanish or German, let alone anything from further afield. They would have done more for their pupils by dumping Latin for a modern language such as Spanish.

 

On what to learn, that's difficult as nobody really knows where life will take them. Bahasa Indonesian would have been great for me but less so for most others. Looking at usefulness for general travel Spanish is a good default. For professional value Mandarin is another good default.

 

Yes, I agree, if only the crystal ball had been working then I would have known to learn Spanish not French!

 

Mike.

[Vecchio]

The English language is somehow easier to learn than most of the other European languages. This is more about the grammar - the pronunciation is full of exceptions. I suppose this is the reason why the English language is used in so many different fields.

After the company I was working for was taking over a company in Bratislava I started to learn Slovakian. Their grammar is influenced by the Latin grammar, having 6 cases. Well - it took me 6 month until I gave up.  By the way my mother language is German and I speak also fluent Italian.

[APOLLO]

Having been to and driven all around Thailand I was thankful that most road signs are in both Thai & English, and they drive on the left (sometimes !!).

 

 

 

I think something was misunderstood in translation !!

 

Brit15

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

When I was at school the only languages they taught were French and Latin. No options for Spanish ...

I had one year of Latin taught by Miss Stickings - that was more than enough ........... but got French and Spanish 'O' level thanks to a Yorkshireman by the name of Mr.Williamson - sorry, by the name of "Bug" ......... Eh bien, tharts it lad / Eh bueno, tharts it lad !

[SM42]

32 minutes ago, Vecchio said:

The English language is somehow easier to learn than most of the other European languages. This is more about the grammar - the pronunciation is full of exceptions. I suppose this is the reason why the English language is used in so many different fields.

After the company I was working for was taking over a company in Bratislava I started to learn Slovakian. Their grammar is influenced by the Latin grammar, having 6 cases. Well - it took me 6 month until I gave up.  By the way my mother language is German and I speak also fluent Italian.

 

I'm biased, but I would say grammatically English is easier. 

 

Granted there are sometimes some real gymnastics in the tenses or spelling, but as to case, gender and tense endings, its pretty straightforward. 

 

Trying to learn Polish is a nightmare. 

 

7 cases ( I don't understand the names of them in English, so what hope is there to use them correctly in Polish?) 3 genders so that's potentially 21 different endings to each noun and its adjectives. 

 

Then of course the verb has to match up with the verbee's gender and the tense in which the verbing is done

 

Add in some rules on spelling for multiples up to 4  which changes for multiples of 5 or more and soon the head starts to hurt. 

 

One text book even stated that for the genitive case, the word endings follow no hard and fast rule so you'll just have to try and remember them.

How many nouns are there? 

 

( I use the what sounds right method)

 

In English just one ending  in general across the board. 

 

So yes, I can see the attractiveness of English being a common language for railways. 

Most people probably  learn it at school, so they have a bit of knowledge ( like we have in French say, from our school days) that can be built on and it's either that or learn 28 or more  languages. 

 

Andy

Edited May 26, 2023 by SM42

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Another thing of course is that English dominates popular culture. Internationally popular music is usually in English (check out how many Eurovision songs are sung in English) as are many of the most popular films.

 

We do, of course, have the Americans to thank for that, but...

 

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

My late friend was an aide to one of our admirals at a NATO bash, when a French admiral asked why all those parties to be conducted in English, an American general turned around, because if we hadn't turned up in the wars you'd be speaking German. End of conversation.

 

 

I have heard that after American independence there were serious discussions about which language should be used. There were arguments against English as it was the language of the 'oppressors', and independence gave them a chance for a new beginning and a break from the past.

 

English won out for a number of reasons (helped no doubt by the fact everyone already spoke the language!) but there was significant support for German being the new language. Things would have been very different if that had been the case.

 

[ruggedpeak]

https://www.railtech.com/policy/2023/03/21/a-common-language-for-european-train-drivers-additional-hurdle-or-solution/

[Reorte]

When it comes to learning English I've heard it said that it's easier than most to get a basic grasp of, probably for the simpler grammar (e.g. just stick an 's' on the end in the third person), but there are so many exceptions and oddities that it's one of the harder languages to become completely fluent in.

 

If you don't count a handful of words (I know what "beer" is in about five languages) the only other one I could ever even vaguely speak was French, and I was pretty poor there (worse now since I've forgotten a lot). I lived in France for 15 months and got to the point where I could just about get my message across and understand the reply if the person saying it was being patient. It definitely helped a few times (I once noticed we got rather better service in a restaurant than some other English people who didn't say a word of French). I was quite pleased though once when a woman in a shop in Cannes seemed very relieved to find an Englishman who could speak any French at all. This is making me think I should put a bit of effort in to getting back in practice. Even if I hardly ever use it again it's still satisfying.

 

That all said one time I was in France I kept trying to talk French to the hotel receptionist every evening, she kept replying in French, until it eventually came out that she was Swedish and her English far better than her French. We dropped the French at that point!

[jjb1970]

I think the position of English is a hangover from Empire and the fact it's the language of the USA. We took the language with us as we conquered and colonised, as did every other imperial power. In our case it outlasted the empire largely because our hegemony was replaced by another English speaking hegemon. And once established as the language of popular culture, commerce and diplomatic activity it became a global default second language.

 

The only serious rival is Spanish, though looking forwards it's clear Mandarin is rapidly growing in importance and there are regional languages which may be more important in certain areas, such as Arabic.

 

I find some (though not all) Asian languages very difficult as some are tonal and use sounds we don't. Pronunciation is everything. Mandarin is difficult, and Vietnamese takes it up a whole level. And that's before thinking about the written script.

 

Both of my kids are fluent in Bahasa Indonesia and are good at Spanish. I think the boy made a big mistake as he elected to do Spanish as his foreign language at school in preference to Mandarin (the default here). He's already good at Spanish and saw it as a pathway to easy Street. The girl is studying Mandarin and doing really well. I tried to persuade the boy that if he could learn Mandarin in addition to English, Bahasa and Spanish (as the girl is doing) he'd be extremely well positioned for life after school but to no avail.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

Today I will be speaking R.D.F. and  R.A.D.A.R. to many who visit, https://www.radarmuseum.co.uk/

 

Didn't know that was there - I used to be in the area fairly often as I had a static caravan at Mundesley.  I think my late father would have been particularly interested.  There's not many folk still spell R.A.D.A.R. with its full stops and still fewer who remember R.D.F.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

When I was at school the only languages they taught were French and Latin. No options for Spanish or German, let alone anything from further afield. They would have done more for their pupils by dumping Latin for a modern language such as Spanish.

 

When I was at school French was compulsory and the only other languages offered were Latin and German, but only for those who did OK in French in the first year.  I was better than average at French and was given the choice and opted for German - so I got Latin - four years of

 

Latin is a language,
Dead as Dead Can Be,
First it Killed the Romans,
Now It's Killing Me.

 

But there was good reason for the school to offer the language - it was required in those days if you wanted to train as a doctor or get into Oxbridge, and of course it was still being used by Church-going Catholics.

[Fat Controller]

30 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When I was at school French was compulsory and the only other languages offered were Latin and German, but only for those who did OK in French in the first year.  I was better than average at French and was given the choice and opted for German - so I got Latin - four years of

 

Latin is a language,
Dead as Dead Can Be,
First it Killed the Romans,
Now It's Killing Me.

 

But there was good reason for the school to offer the language - it was required in those days if you wanted to train as a doctor or get into Oxbridge, and of course it was still being used by Church-going Catholics.

When my French master met my mother, just before it was time to make the choices of subjects for 0 -Level, he said 'I think Brian should drop French and concentrate on Latin. He's not very likely to meet any Romans, after all..'

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Claude_Dreyfus said:

Another thing of course is that English dominates popular culture. Internationally popular music is usually in English (check out how many Eurovision songs are sung in English) as are many of the most popular films.

 

We do, of course, have the Americans to thank for that, but...

 

I have heard that after American independence there were serious discussions about which language should be used. There were arguments against English as it was the language of the 'oppressors', and independence gave them a chance for a new beginning and a break from the past.

 

English won out for a number of reasons (helped no doubt by the fact everyone already spoke the language!) but there was significant support for German being the new language. Things would have been very different if that had been the case.

 

 

If they'd have gone ahead with German, what's going on over there nowadays would be even more incomprehensible!

 

Mike.

[keefer]

I don't know if it's any different now but I think the <insert foreign language here> taught in British schools was technically quite formal - in that while what we learned was correct, it wasn't particularly how people spoke in real life. I don't mean using slang etc., just that there's a more 'everyday'  use of language. Perhaps only gained through more study or actually living among native speakers.

That said, I've found many foreign people will appreciate the effort made to speak to them in their language in their country. 

I'm mainly talking on holidays here but I've seen plenty of the 'shouting slowly' brigade being given short-shrift in hotels/cafés etc., while those who at least make an effort enjoy much better hospitality. Even a genuine please/thank you can make a lot of difference.

Of course, regarding the OP, official/technical use of language is necessarily more complicated.

Edited May 26, 2023 by keefer

[C126]

This topic is drifting rather, but if I may be permitted a little cathartic moaning, I realised a few years ago I will never speak a foreign language, because one needs a good memory and the ability to ignore every other interest in life.  Which is a pity, because as I got older I was more interested in linguistics, and especially the Oriental side.  The film 'Three Seasons' bewitched me with the sound of Vietnamese...

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

When it comes to learning English I've heard it said that it's easier than most to get a basic grasp of, probably for the simpler grammar (e.g. just stick an 's' on the end in the third person), but there are so many exceptions and oddities that it's one of the harder languages to become completely fluent in.

 

I agree with that - you can mangle an English sentance into all sorts of odd combinations and still have a decent chance of being understood, but mastering it is nearly impossible, even for many native speakers!

 

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

 

I'm biased, but I would say grammatically English is easier. 

 

Granted there are sometimes some real gymnastics in the tenses or spelling, but as to case, gender and tense endings, its pretty straightforward. 

 

Trying to learn Polish is a nightmare. 

 

7 cases ( I don't understand the names of them in English, so what hope is there to use them correctly in Polish?) 3 genders so that's potentially 21 different endings to each noun and its adjectives. 

 

Then of course the verb has to match up with the verbee's gender and the tense in which the verbing is done

 

Add in some rules on spelling for multiples up to 4  which changes for multiples of 5 or more and soon the head starts to hurt. 

 

One text book even stated that for the genitive case, the word endings follow no hard and fast rule so you'll just have to try and remember them.

How many nouns are there? 

 

( I use the what sounds right method)

 

In English just one ending  in general across the board. 

 

So yes, I can see the attractiveness of English being a common language for railways. 

Most people probably  learn it at school, so they have a bit of knowledge ( like we have in French say, from our school days) that can be built on and it's either that or learn 28 or more  languages. 

 

Andy

 

As a fellow learner of Polish, I fully agree! They do tend to be pretty forgiving if you get it wrong though, generally grateful that you've taken the effort to try...

 

As for the choice of a common language (be it for railway purposes or other), whichever you choose is going to upset someone - most likely the French! English is the most widely spoken second language, with 44% of people in the EU speaking it (according to Wikipedia), and it's still the primary language of two member states, although neither Ireland nor Malta will have much cross-border railway traffic! It's also rapidly growing, at least in the central and eastern areas, as younger people prefer to learn English rather than the German or Russian their parents were forced to learn behind the Iron Curtain. English is also the lingua franca of the internet and most business these days, and of course a large proportion of film and TV.

[Wheatley]

42 minutes ago, keefer said:

I don't know if it's any different now but I think the <insert foreign language here> taught in British schools was technically quite formal - in that while what we learned was correct, it wasn't particularly how people spoke in real life.

Not quite the same thing but in 'Captain Correlli's Mandolin' the British SOE agent's lines are all written in Shakespearean prose, representing someone parachuted into Greece who only learned Classical Greek at school. 

[Rugd1022]

I've started learning French, German, Swiss and Italian in case I get wrong routed at Longhenge Junction again...😁

[Boris]

Klingon  is the future.

 

Glory to the Empire.

 

Also Klingon is the only invented language officially recognised by Disney....

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

As for the choice of a common language (be it for railway purposes or other), whichever you choose is going to upset someone - most likely the French!

... even if that language chosen is French! 

Parisians look down their Gallic noses at you if you speak French with a provincial accent, let alone a foreign one.